Darth Wong wrote:A non-aquatic creature that large would probably have trouble simply keeping its bones from shattering under its weight, never mind flying.
There are physically plausible solutions to the structural issues. There is no chemical reason why biological organisms couldn't have skeletons made of carbon fibre (or even woven diamond filaments), or tendons made of carbon nanotubes, or indeed quite a few of the bleeding edge nanostructured materials being developed. They simply didn't evolve on earth, due to the lack of incremental paths for evolution to follow (in particular, the higher energy requirements of making these materials imply a slow growth rate, which probably wasn't an acceptable tradeoff). Tissue oxygenation and cooling is also a challenge but probably still beatable without resorting to exotic physics - telekinesis as a special ability is one thing, but I'd prefer exotic biology to the notion that the creature needs to use telekinesis all the time just to hold its structure together. After all we already know that demon's biological systems outperform typical earth-mammal ones in a lot of respects.
Take-off is another issue though. The Spruce Goose is probably the most comparable real-world aircraft, and it had a wingspan of 319 feet and a takeoff speed of 135 mph. It was probably rather more aerodynamic than a four-legged multi-headed monstrosity, but of course didn't have the benefit of variable wing geometry. I can't see any way you're going to get an ungainly four-legged creature substantially bigger than a brontosaurus to run at ~140mph even with a water take off and the most optimistic possible assumptions about its biology. You could throw it off a cliff, but it would have to be a hell of a cliff (pun intended) to pull out of the dive before splattering all over the ground. Thus I think the TK-assist explanation works best here, particularly because I'm pretty sure that's how the angels manage to fly without harpy-style hydrogen sacs.
Anyone have any ideas on the energy field that seems to permeate hell which sustains and heals the dead humans? That sort of thing might be very handy for getting a hydra into the air.
Oh, and also, if we ever conquer Hell, our zoos are going to be SO much cooler.
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Starglider wrote: I suspect that super-hydra uses a burst of telekinesis to get airborne (the demonic equivalent of JATO bottles). If some of the sentient demons can there's no reason why a few of the demonic beasts can't have some capability. It would be pretty much impossible to make something that big and unaerodynamic take off if you were restricted to anything resembling normal biology.
You might notice that the hydra was heavily escorted
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Starglider wrote: I suspect that super-hydra uses a burst of telekinesis to get airborne (the demonic equivalent of JATO bottles). If some of the sentient demons can there's no reason why a few of the demonic beasts can't have some capability. It would be pretty much impossible to make something that big and unaerodynamic take off if you were restricted to anything resembling normal biology.
You might notice that the hydra was heavily escorted
Perhaps some nearby naga were helping it fly?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
More than one F-105 pilot had been so interested in strafing his target that he’d left pulling out too late and flown right into the ground.
They should be able to find him I'd think.
I did have a feeling that soldiers killed in the fighting would seek to return to their units. I guess they have an 'oh bugger' moment when they wake up after being killed.
Thinking about the Thuds I must have a trawl of 'Thunder and Lightnings' (http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/contents.php) to see what we may have available in our museums other than the four Vulcans and four Victors I've put down for operational duty. Looks like there might be enough Buccaneers to form at least one squadron and there are the two TSR.2s...
There are also shedloads of airworthy Hunters, which was pretty good in the ground attack role. The Swiss and Singaporean Hunters were almost totally rebuilt and upgraded in the '80s.
Nice work, Stu.
Last edited by JN1 on 2008-06-30 01:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gtg947h wrote:The story of that Russian lieutenant is kinda touching...
I wonder where he got a new Russian military uniform, as the story didn't say he showed up naked in front of the colonel, that he was wearing a US military uniform, or that he was wearing civvies.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
More than one F-105 pilot had been so interested in strafing his target that he’d left pulling out too late and flown right into the ground.
They should be able to find him I'd think.
I might be reading it wrong... but I think that's referring to incidents from, say, Vietnam, not hell.
Sidewinder wrote:I wonder where he got a new Russian military uniform, as the story didn't say he showed up naked in front of the colonel, that he was wearing a US military uniform, or that he was wearing civvies.
Maybe they gave him some random clothes when he was first picked up, and was then issued a new uniform once he arrived back in the Russian command?
Hmm, does this mean he can go find his own body, and pick up any mementos he might have left behind (wedding rings, dog tags/necklace, maybe cut off any skin with tattoos so he can get them redone)?
Darmalus wrote:Hmm, does this mean he can go find his own body, and pick up any mementos he might have left behind (wedding rings, dog tags/necklace, maybe cut off any skin with tattoos so he can get them redone)?
Baldricks try to eat everyone they kill, so the answer to your question depends on how strong the Baldrick digestive system is.
Starglider wrote:There are physically plausible solutions to the structural issues. There is no chemical reason why biological organisms couldn't have skeletons made of carbon fibre (or even woven diamond filaments), or tendons made of carbon nanotubes, or indeed quite a few of the bleeding edge nanostructured materials being developed. They simply didn't evolve on earth, due to the lack of incremental paths for evolution to follow (in particular, the higher energy requirements of making these materials imply a slow growth rate, which probably wasn't an acceptable tradeoff). Tissue oxygenation and cooling is also a challenge but probably still beatable without resorting to exotic physics - telekinesis as a special ability is one thing, but I'd prefer exotic biology to the notion that the creature needs to use telekinesis all the time just to hold its structure together. After all we already know that demon's biological systems outperform typical earth-mammal ones in a lot of respects.
I think you're being overoptimistic. For one thing, carbon fibre is seriously overrated; there's a reason why jetliners still have so much metal in them. Also, a functional aircraft with 200 foot wings that flap would be a major engineering exercise even if it was a machine rather than a mammal. Its ability to supply its enormous energy requirements would also be an open question. Maybe monstrosities like this are what Satan was saving up that life energy for, and he has some way of funneling it to them.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
It seems likely that such a huge flying creature would not occur naturally in hell. It may be that demons have been selectively breeding air-hydra for hundreds of thousands of years until they ended up being able to grow one of exceptional size. At that point energy requirements wouldn’t matter nearly as much, you can simply feed it all day long, and an inability to takeoff without assistance could also be overcome.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
What about a species which simply experiences continuous growth? The most powerful individual at the top of the species could probably afford the food and knowledge of telekenesis and so on to remain alive and functional even at enormous sizes for quite some time.
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Considering that I'm playing Ace Combat 5 (or rather the PAL version) at this time, AWESOME. The lack of radar reminds me of the "decontamination" half of the Bana City mission.
P.S. Rather interestingly, Xisorixus' terminology seems to indicate that the knowledge of just what the enemy vehicles/munitions are is still unknown, which may give Belial an advantage over others in (to say nothing of being the first to actually try to rescue -- even using orcs -- Satan, if he's still alive) in the power vacuum.
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. " - bcoogler on this
"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet
Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists." SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
Sea Skimmer wrote:It seems likely that such a huge flying creature would not occur naturally in hell. It may be that demons have been selectively breeding air-hydra for hundreds of thousands of years until they ended up being able to grow one of exceptional size. At that point energy requirements wouldn’t matter nearly as much, you can simply feed it all day long, and an inability to takeoff without assistance could also be overcome.
That sounds like the most reasonable possibility to me. We already know they can do some funky things with biology.
Edward Yee wrote:P.S. Rather interestingly, Xisorixus' terminology seems to indicate that the knowledge of just what the enemy vehicles/munitions are is still unknown, which may give Belial an advantage over others in (to say nothing of being the first to actually try to rescue -- even using orcs -- Satan, if he's still alive) in the power vacuum.
I suspect that Belial's survival time in the power vacuum is a function of how long it takes for the other demonic lords to realize that what happened to Satan was Human payback for Belial's actions. At which point, it becomes a function of how fast he can talk, or run.
Edward Yee wrote:P.S. Rather interestingly, Xisorixus' terminology seems to indicate that the knowledge of just what the enemy vehicles/munitions are is still unknown, which may give Belial an advantage over others in (to say nothing of being the first to actually try to rescue -- even using orcs -- Satan, if he's still alive) in the power vacuum.
I suspect that Belial's survival time in the power vacuum is a function of how long it takes for the other demonic lords to realize that what happened to Satan was Human payback for Belial's actions. At which point, it becomes a function of how fast he can talk, or run.
You know, the humans would have reacted the same way if Abigor had somehow successfully carried out his original mission of marching across the desert to exterminate human settlements the old-fashioned way. This is simply the response to demonic success at their goals. Blaming the guy who finally managed to score a success would be silly when they all agreed upon this goal in the first place. Not that the demons wouldn't unfairly pick a scapegoat anyway.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Starglider wrote: I suspect that super-hydra uses a burst of telekinesis to get airborne (the demonic equivalent of JATO bottles). If some of the sentient demons can there's no reason why a few of the demonic beasts can't have some capability. It would be pretty much impossible to make something that big and unaerodynamic take off if you were restricted to anything resembling normal biology.
You might notice that the hydra was heavily escorted
What sort of passenger would ride such an opulent beast -- no doubt the product of an extensive breeding program -- and warrant that level of heavy escort?
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Starglider wrote: I suspect that super-hydra uses a burst of telekinesis to get airborne (the demonic equivalent of JATO bottles). If some of the sentient demons can there's no reason why a few of the demonic beasts can't have some capability. It would be pretty much impossible to make something that big and unaerodynamic take off if you were restricted to anything resembling normal biology.
You might notice that the hydra was heavily escorted
What sort of passenger would ride such an opulent beast -- no doubt the product of an extensive breeding program -- and warrant that level of heavy escort?
Satan wasn't in the palace. He was on that Hydra, with the golden wyverns escorting him.
GrandMasterTerwynn wrote:I suspect that Belial's survival time in the power vacuum is a function of how long it takes for the other demonic lords to realize that what happened to Satan was Human payback for Belial's actions. At which point, it becomes a function of how fast he can talk, or run.
I figure that the knowledge, if he somehow manages to horde it to himself, will at least give him a bit of leverage. If it goes beyond him, he's done for.
"Yee's proposal is exactly the sort of thing I would expect some Washington legal eagle to do. In fact, it could even be argued it would be unrealistic to not have a scene in the next book of, say, a Congressman Yee submit the Yee Act for consideration. " - bcoogler on this
"My crystal ball is filled with smoke, and my hovercraft is full of eels." - Bayonet
Stark: "You can't even GET to heaven. You don't even know where it is, or even if it still exists." SirNitram: "So storm Hell." - From the legendary thread
This begs the question: if Satan was riding the the Hydra, does this mean he was just plain lucky, or does it mean that he anticipated the strike? If he's going mobile to avoid assassination, it would mean that he recognized the true scale of the threat posed by the humans, more so than his lieutenants did. And note that all of them believed he was in the palace, including various orcs who had been in the immediate vicinity of that palace; does this mean he snuck out quietly?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
A battle the scale of which has not been seen in what, a million years, is going on, while at the same time the very pit of hell is in rebellion? I’m thinking that would be more then reason enough for Satan to get mobile and go see what's going on outside his palace walls. He can’t be very trusting of his subordinates after so many failures, and he's probably always paranoid about assassinations. He has every reason to fear a human assassination attempt even if he doesn’t comprehend human powers. Secret access tunnels in the palace seem just obvious, what proper palace doesn’t have at least one?
If Satan is riding the hydra then that also raises the question of why the humans didn’t know about it, I can’t see Abigor not knowing how Satan travels, and surely during his many interrogations humans would have asked.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Darth Wong wrote:A non-aquatic creature that large would probably have trouble simply keeping its bones from shattering under its weight, never mind flying.
There are physically plausible solutions to the structural issues. There is no chemical reason why biological organisms couldn't have skeletons made of carbon fibre (or even woven diamond filaments), or tendons made of carbon nanotubes, or indeed quite a few of the bleeding edge nanostructured materials being developed. They simply didn't evolve on earth, due to the lack of incremental paths for evolution to follow (in particular, the higher energy requirements of making these materials imply a slow growth rate, which probably wasn't an acceptable tradeoff). Tissue oxygenation and cooling is also a challenge but probably still beatable without resorting to exotic physics - telekinesis as a special ability is one thing, but I'd prefer exotic biology to the notion that the creature needs to use telekinesis all the time just to hold its structure together. After all we already know that demon's biological systems outperform typical earth-mammal ones in a lot of respects.
Take-off is another issue though. The Spruce Goose is probably the most comparable real-world aircraft, and it had a wingspan of 319 feet and a takeoff speed of 135 mph. It was probably rather more aerodynamic than a four-legged multi-headed monstrosity, but of course didn't have the benefit of variable wing geometry. I can't see any way you're going to get an ungainly four-legged creature substantially bigger than a brontosaurus to run at ~140mph even with a water take off and the most optimistic possible assumptions about its biology. You could throw it off a cliff, but it would have to be a hell of a cliff (pun intended) to pull out of the dive before splattering all over the ground. Thus I think the TK-assist explanation works best here, particularly because I'm pretty sure that's how the angels manage to fly without harpy-style hydrogen sacs.
Or, it could just climb up to a large cliff and fall off into the thermal updrafts, like pteradons were thought to have done.
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Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
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