Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-06-30 09:56pm

I don't see how the hydra can be the product of a controlled breeding operation. If he was, then there should be an entire species of hydra running around out there, which begs the question of why more of them have not been sighted. Moreover, there should be plenty of other hydras of similar size to this big one. You don't do a controlled breeding program with a handful of small specimens and then suddenly get a monster-sized specimen. And if there are indeed lots of these hydras, why have they been held back in the current battle, where the demons seem to have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink?

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2008-06-30 10:08pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how the hydra can be the product of a controlled breeding operation. If he was, then there should be an entire species of hydra running around out there, which begs the question of why more of them have not been sighted. Moreover, there should be plenty of other hydras of similar size to this big one. You don't do a controlled breeding program with a handful of small specimens and then suddenly get a monster-sized specimen. And if there are indeed lots of these hydras, why have they been held back in the current battle, where the demons seem to have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink?

What if hydras are a part of an angelic breeding program and this is the only one in hell?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2008-06-30 10:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how the hydra can be the product of a controlled breeding operation. If he was, then there should be an entire species of hydra running around out there, which begs the question of why more of them have not been sighted.

Hell is a big place; the humans have almost certainly not seen a random sample of what lives there.

Moreover, there should be plenty of other hydras of similar size to this big one. You don't do a controlled breeding program with a handful of small specimens and then suddenly get a monster-sized specimen. And if there are indeed lots of these hydras, why have they been held back in the current battle, where the demons seem to have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink?

Several reasons come to mind. If the hydra is so big that it requires telekinesis to work (that's another possible interpretation of having a heavy escort), it could simply be too unwieldy to throw into battle. If it's a transport, then there's no point; it would contribute nothing. And if it is Satan's personal breed, then he could simply be selfishly holding it back.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2008-06-30 10:36pm

Well, we know demons can live millions of years, maybe hydras can too? Maybe it was produced as a prestige mount for Satan many thousands of years ago, and they killed off all the other specimens because they were too much of a pain in the ass to feed all the time?

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-07-01 01:01am

I can think of another reason why Satan might have been on the hydra at the time: heaven. The Heavengate is surely well away from the palace for simple security reasons, and with all the shit going down it wouldn't surprise me if Satan had to make a personal appearance to brow beat the angels and tell them that he has things under control and to stay the fuck off his turf.

Somehow I think coming home to find his palace no longer exists will undermine his authority on that matter.

That said, if he comes home to find Belial digging to find him then the demon lord we love to hate will score some massive brownie points. Not only that, but with the big guy still in charge he can easily point out that if Abigor and the others had been doing their job in the first place then the humans would have never gained the Hellmouth and thus the capacity to bomb the palace.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2008-07-01 01:19am

The symmetry of Satan returning home to find his palace destroyed and Belial returning home to find Tartarus unaccountably missing is decidedly appealing.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2008-07-01 02:01am

darthdavid wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how the hydra can be the product of a controlled breeding operation. If he was, then there should be an entire species of hydra running around out there, which begs the question of why more of them have not been sighted. Moreover, there should be plenty of other hydras of similar size to this big one. You don't do a controlled breeding program with a handful of small specimens and then suddenly get a monster-sized specimen. And if there are indeed lots of these hydras, why have they been held back in the current battle, where the demons seem to have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink?
What if hydras are a part of an angelic breeding program and this is the only one in hell?

No. This isn't the only one in Hell. There's at least one other guarding Tartarus.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2008-07-01 02:19am

Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how the hydra can be the product of a controlled breeding operation. If he was, then there should be an entire species of hydra running around out there, which begs the question of why more of them have not been sighted.

Why? Hell is a Pangaea sized landmass of which we have only really seen a few tiny parts, most of them in close proximity to each other or else in the pit. We have not for example seen the supposedly lusher area in which the demons live and we haven’t seen the sea coast at all. You could walk around an awful lot of Africa and not see a single elephant, or heck any creature larger then a donkey but that wouldn’t mean they don’t exist. We've probably just not seen the area in which hydra can live, I doubt the plains around Dis or the pits of hell have enough food for the things to subsist naturally. It is also possible that the demons have simply wiped out all large and dangerous wild beasts in the areas they live in; just like humans do.

If Hell has a complete ecosystem seeded with life from earth then it must have thousands upon thousands of different creatures, most small but some could be very large. We wouldn’t wont ever get to see them all even if this story was five million words.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-01 03:16am

Academia Nut wrote:I can think of another reason why Satan might have been on the hydra at the time: heaven. The Heavengate is surely well away from the palace for simple security reasons, and with all the shit going down it wouldn't surprise me if Satan had to make a personal appearance to brow beat the angels and tell them that he has things under control and to stay the fuck off his turf.

Somehow I think coming home to find his palace no longer exists will undermine his authority on that matter.

This is my thought. A secret trip to the Gate to talk to Yaweh face to face, to get some things straightened out. He might be that desparate. Satan is many things, but he isn't stupid.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-07-01 05:46am

I'm interested to see how supergigantic creatures would impact the battlefield. If Hell has creatures that are on the 100-200 m size scale or grreater, those creatures would not be as vulnerable to arms like machineguns and such. They would of course die when facing a modern army with heavy tech, but the free Hell guys with just machine guns to boot, even the most powerful on the order of 15mm caliber, and some grenades, will not stand against such creatures.

Bayonet · Post by **Bayonet** » 2008-07-01 09:03am

Stas Bush wrote:I'm interested to see how supergigantic creatures would impact the battlefield. If Hell has creatures that are on the 100-200 m size scale or grreater, those creatures would not be as vulnerable to arms like machineguns and such. They would of course die when facing a modern army with heavy tech, but the free Hell guys with just machine guns to boot, even the most powerful on the order of 15mm caliber, and some grenades, will not stand against such creatures.

No, but they would be vulnerable to missiles and artillery hits. Terrestrial giants would be vulnerable to mines and moretar fire as well. We still have plenty of that stuff. That having been said, the sudden appearance of large, destructive surprizes can be unpleasant and expensive. But they would be short lived.

Pelranius · Post by **Pelranius** » 2008-07-01 10:08am

They'd probably be effective as those silly super heavy German AFVs that made their way out towards the end of WWII (yeah, I'm looking at you Jadgtiger, Tiger II and Maus) in that they give a bit of shock at first, but then their real downsides become apparent due to the massive logistical footprints they require, to say nothing of the resources lost when one of those things gets destroyed.

Resinence · Post by **Resinence** » 2008-07-01 12:21pm

I'm more curious about what ability's the hydra may have, mythical hydra's are well known to have lightning attacks, and naga in this universe have a stronger lighting discharge. If even a small fraction of the hydra's mass is dedicated to that purpose like the naga's tail then it could cause serious devastation.

Darmalus · Post by **Darmalus** » 2008-07-01 12:35pm

Well, if it can target a tank-killing lightning blast with each head, then the worst it can do is kill 7 APCs/tanks at once, as fast as it can recharge and fire. Not good at all if your on the receiving end, and could potentially make for a devastating spearhead is several were to push against the human defenses all at once, but it also seems that the demons are not thinking of using them in such a manner. Satan seems to hold on to the best stuff as his personal guards and refuses to use them in any sort of offensive manner. Plus, to me at least, something that big just strikes me as a giant artillery magnet.

"Oh shit! What's that thing?!"
"It's huge and has 7 heads! Hydra!"
Woosh KABLAM!
"Ugh! Hydra guts smell worse than demon guts!"

fb111a · Post by **fb111a** » 2008-07-01 01:50pm

Pelranius wrote:They'd probably be effective as those silly super heavy German AFVs that made their way out towards the end of WWII (yeah, I'm looking at you Jadgtiger, Tiger II and Maus) in that they give a bit of shock at first, but then their real downsides become apparent due to the massive logistical footprints they require, to say nothing of the resources lost when one of those things gets destroyed.

A whole bunch of Sherman crews - arguably, a lot more than necessary - found out the hard way that the Tiger and its successors offered a bit more than shock value.

I wouldn't be so quick to knock it.

At this point, the only edge humans have is a qualitative advantage on a 1-for-1 basis. Right now, they are badly outnumbered.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2008-07-01 02:05pm

fb111a wrote:
At this point, the only edge humans have is a qualitative advantage on a 1-for-1 basis. Right now, they are badly outnumbered.

That our forces are out numbered hardly matters, at least in the operational context, the qualitative factor is enough to reduce hellish forces to such a point that even Hells army commanders realise that they are screwed and we have not even fully mobilised yet.
The problem will be the after effects of the war in hell, how do we garrison and maintain order in such a vast land with so few troops? and that's where politics comes in, anyone else who can exercise some form of civil authority over a patch of sulphur will have to be reasoned with, dealt with, or to, as the case may be. All this and the question of the second front with Heaven has not even opened, that's where the numbers come in.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-01 02:07pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how the hydra can be the product of a controlled breeding operation. If he was, then there should be an entire species of hydra running around out there, which begs the question of why more of them have not been sighted.
Why? Hell is a Pangaea sized landmass of which we have only really seen a few tiny parts, most of them in close proximity to each other or else in the pit. We have not for example seen the supposedly lusher area in which the demons live and we haven’t seen the sea coast at all. You could walk around an awful lot of Africa and not see a single elephant, or heck any creature larger then a donkey but that wouldn’t mean they don’t exist. We've probably just not seen the area in which hydra can live, I doubt the plains around Dis or the pits of hell have enough food for the things to subsist naturally. It is also possible that the demons have simply wiped out all large and dangerous wild beasts in the areas they live in; just like humans do.

If Hell has a complete ecosystem seeded with life from earth then it must have thousands upon thousands of different creatures, most small but some could be very large. We wouldn’t wont ever get to see them all even if this story was five million words.

Yes, but this isn't some wilderness beast. If it has been domesticated and made useful for war, then it's not the sort of things demons would wipe out or keep far from themselves. It could be that it's something they're holding in reserve, or it could be that its abilities have been enhanced through some means other than traditional controlled breeding.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-01 02:08pm

fb111a wrote:At this point, the only edge humans have is a qualitative advantage on a 1-for-1 basis. Right now, they are badly outnumbered.

It's not the number of soldiers they're worried about; it's the number of bullets. Once production ramps up, this won't be as much of a problem.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-01 02:26pm

One question, and I don't recall if anyone has asked it before: does Jesus have any significance in this cosmology? Was he actually one of Yahweh's minions, sent in an attempt to deceive the humans into millennia of worship, or was he just some crazy guy in Jerusalem? Same question applies to Mohammed.

HRogge · Post by **HRogge** » 2008-07-01 03:13pm

Darth Wong wrote:One question, and I don't recall if anyone has asked it before: does Jesus have any significance in this cosmology? Was he actually one of Yahweh's minions, sent in an attempt to deceive the humans into millennia of worship, or was he just some crazy guy in Jerusalem? Same question applies to Mohammed.

He got house arrest after he wanted to interfere when he discovered what the church became after he left...

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2008-07-01 04:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:One question, and I don't recall if anyone has asked it before: does Jesus have any significance in this cosmology? Was he actually one of Yahweh's minions, sent in an attempt to deceive the humans into millennia of worship, or was he just some crazy guy in Jerusalem? Same question applies to Mohammed.

I was thinking about this, and one idea I had was that the Gnostics were right--the Yahweh of the Old Testament is evil, and Jesus was the son (or herald or incarnation, depending on which sect you ask) of a different, ineffable good deity. Translated into this story, perhaps Jesus was someone important in heaven who's gone rogue and really is (or was) on our side, but for some reason now seems to be off the scene (defeated, forced into hiding, brought back into the Heavenly fold after the humans he was trying to help crucified him, whatever). Or perhaps Jesus was a minor deity unconnected to either side, like whoever protected Caesar, who made a takeover bid. I think it's perfectly possible that someone in Heaven or Hell would take pity on humans; to go back to Stuart's cattle analogy, even cows have PETA.

Of course, it's also possible Jesus (and Mohammad) were tools of Heaven to spread worship of Yahweh as far and wide as possible, to speed up the process of creating obedient drones with which to stock the Chorus. Heaven has been closed for about 1000 years, which is enough time for Christianity and Islam combined to spread worship of Yahweh from the Atlantic to Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent, and deep into sub-Saharan Africa.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-07-01 04:17pm

What you're saying is that Jesus really IS God's long-haired loser hippy son?

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2008-07-01 04:34pm

I think it would be exceedingly cool if Jesus was a rebel of sorts, whatever his origins. It could come to light that after Yahweh had him whacked, he twisted Jesus' message and used it to strengthen the Chorus.

Hell, if you wanted to, Jesus could've been an agent sent on Satan's behalf to subtly undermine the available amount of souls for Yahweh to harvest. After all, if Yahweh's standards are so strict, and because his method is so much more efficient, even costing him a few hundred or a thousand souls is substantial. So you have Jesus' secular message of love and understanding diverting people away from fearful worship of Yahweh. What does Yahweh do? He kills the fucker and twists his message through propagandists until he has an entrenched ideology that's bringing in an acceptable amount of souls.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2008-07-01 05:07pm

Darth Wong wrote: Yes, but this isn't some wilderness beast. If it has been domesticated and made useful for war, then it's not the sort of things demons would wipe out or keep far from themselves.

Some demons live 10,000km from others, I still don’t see the problem.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-01 05:17pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Yes, but this isn't some wilderness beast. If it has been domesticated and made useful for war, then it's not the sort of things demons would wipe out or keep far from themselves.
Some demons live 10,000km from others, I still don’t see the problem.

The problem is the question of why they've been held back. If they have:

A) A lot of these things running around
B) A long history of domestication
C) Combat applications

Then one has to wonder why they haven't appeared, in a battle where Satan has thrown his entire army at the enemy. That's why I think there's something going on here other than normal selective breeding. Look at Satan's mighty Heralds; they are such a gigantic step up in size and power from normal baldricks that they can't really be explained by simple controlled breeding either. Why aren't there legions of baldricks which occupy many points in the size range between 8 feet tall and 100 feet tall? Or if the two groups separated a very long time ago, why aren't there more of the giant specimens, in order to make them a viable species? Are they an evolutionary dead-end now, so that if they die, they are irreplaceable?