SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK V

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Question, was there ever a defence mechanism for defeating nuclear torps that are used to attack ports? That has been bugging me for a while, though I have laid lots of mines and a sonar system to detect subs (and I intend to make a submarine order soon from my own shipyards.)

Sink the submarine before it can launch.

Are there... secondary possible solutions? Sure I have diesels patrolling around the yards but...

[PeZook]

And...moon landing hoaxery rears its ugly head.

...before an actual landing has even taken place

[phongn]

As for Shep's Pluto missiles, ya'll realize he's just imposed significant virtual attrition costs on you for defense?

[PeZook]

As for Shep's Pluto missiles, ya'll realize he's just imposed significant virtual attrition costs on you for defense?

Yes. We do.

However, a defence system which can intercept Plutos can also intercept bombers and normal cruise missiles.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The only serious countermeasure to Shep's Plutos is to nuke the daylights out of him in a massive counterstrike using nothing but hypersonic missiles... but hey... let's take it a few steps further.... why not bombs from the sky?

[Shroom Man 777]

I guess this means we need our own SCORECARD?

EDIT:

Our position will be more defensible if Shep worries less about loosing his missiles to point defenses, and more about losing his cities to orbital bombardment...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I guess this means we need our own SCORECARD?

EDIT:

Our position will be more defensible if Shep worries less about loosing his missiles to point defenses, and more about losing his cities to orbital bombardment...

Ah.. that's the trick right? Making him care?

Then the other issue is, Saddam the Great is going to be unhappy about our SCORECARD systems. I'm guessing he's going to launch so many nukes, our radars will just be saturated with targets.

[PeZook]

Our position will be more defensible if Shep worries less about loosing his missiles to point defenses, and more about losing his cities to orbital bombardment...

The problem is...he doesn't seem to worry about that very much

Stas's queston rears its ugly head once more. Do we release the FUN defence map as a gesture of goodwill? It will make us look rather nasty for an alliance named FUN, but a deterrent is only a deterrent if your pontential enemies actually know it exists.

[K. A. Pital]

Can't find anything on it's power level, for example.

Judging from the test info, it achieved performace similar to the NKC-135A, destroying (i.e. "deterring" several airborne missiles).

And the best type of defense against those irradiating flying hulks of Shep is striking them right on their airfields, of course. That's the way we should be thinking when considering such a dangerous weapon.

Not to mention that it's hardly that controllable, and with it's speed, and turning radius, it's a worthless weapon that would irradiate most nations of the world when trying to maneuver anywhere. Hell, it would probably irradiate Saddamistan and Shep himself in the process.

[Shroom Man 777]

We don't show anyone the defense plan. Ever.

[PeZook]

And the best type of defense against those irradiating flying hulks of Shep is striking them right on their airfields, of course. That's the way we should be thinking when considering such a dangerous weapon.

So...spy satellites/stratellites+supersonic land attack BlackBear (no D) missiles on submarines and land-based launchers? What if Shep mounts Plutos on submarines or mobile launchers? Only SCORECARD has a reaction time fast enough to twack such a launcher before it can volley off more than one missile.

Unless, of course, you just can't launch nuclear ramjets from mobile launchers...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually, I have been thinking about this for a while. Stas, you have Tu-142 Bears which can be used for long range patrol and equiped with torps and anti-ship missiles right (like those new ones I forgot which).

[K. A. Pital]

I'm guessing he's going to launch so many nukes, our radars will just be saturated with targets.

Everyone who says stupid things about "frying" satellites as means of saving their country is really not understanding the terms of satellite exposure, their failure terms and such. The response times of orbital deterrent weapons would be limited to mere hours, and your nation would still be devastated even if trapped radiation and X-rays would destroy the entier Earth space fleet eventually after several months.

GSO satellites are so hardened tat they are at all unharmable by nuclear weapons and will function for a long time; it would take hours for GSO bombs to reach earth, but the payback will be unstoppable. Getting huge nuclear bombs to GSO is also not possible due to rocketry constraints, so far. Not to mention that effectively setting of a 20-megaton LEO KSAT device just to try to kill at least te line-of-sight group of sats in LEO would mean war against the entier world.

The only weapon with a reasonable timeframe to incapacitate a satellite is an orbital KSAT device with a laser gun, or an earth laser gun, which would immediately incapacitate satellites in range, thereby saving the ground targets.

[Sea Skimmer]

Are there... secondary possible solutions? Sure I have diesels patrolling around the yards but...

Very heavy anti torpedo netting would work to prevent torpedo entry into the close confines of a port, but that wont do any real good now that Saddamistan has miniaturized thermonuclear weapons. The original standard nuclear Mk48 had a 40kt boosted fission warhead, but it is now being rapidly replaced with an equivalent of the US W-56 design, which rather neatly weighs 600 pounds like the Mk48 conventional warhead, and yields 1.2 megatons. Heavier torpedo weapons exist, but can only be deployed on certain submarines which have been fitted with 762mm external tubes. Yield is classified.

An option for a wider area defence would be a system of sonar’s and large command detonated seabed mines. Precision tracking via sonar of a torpedo is pretty much impossible (people have been working on active anti torpedo weapons for a long time, none work) but a 3,000lb explosive charge could destroy or damage one at a significant distance. It would work even better if you had whole clusters of big charges you could explode together. Saddamistani nuclear torpedoes are salvage fused, but the potential certainly exists to hit the torpedo hard enough that it’s broken apart before the nuke can initiate.

Also keep in mind the moment you explode one of those seabed charges sonar performance for miles around goes to shit because of all the reverberating noise (this affects even active sonar) and Saddamistan doctrine calls for firing multiple conventional torpedoes in support of a nuclear attack to act as decoys, and to destroy any ASW vessels which might be along the nuke’s intended path. Blow up the conventional decoy and you might have just cleared a path for the nuke.

None of this would be exactly cheap to deploy and more importantly to guard and maintain, but it’s not a real budget breaker of an undertaking. Defending against Saddamistani nuclear naval mines however, is pretty much solely a matter of sinking the submarine before it emplaces the 150 megaton device or activates the salvage fuse circuits.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Are there... secondary possible solutions? Sure I have diesels patrolling around the yards but...

Very heavy anti torpedo netting would work to prevent torpedo entry into the close confines of a port, but that wont do any real good now that Saddamistan has miniaturized thermonuclear weapons. The original standard nuclear Mk48 had a 40kt boosted fission warhead, but it is now being rapidly replaced with an equivalent of the US W-56 design, which rather neatly weighs 600 pounds like the Mk48 conventional warhead, and yields 1.2 megatons. Heavier torpedo weapons exist, but can only be deployed on certain submarines which have been fitted with 762mm external tubes. Yield is classified.

An option for a wider area defence would be a system of sonar’s and large command detonated seabed mines. Precision tracking via sonar of a torpedo is pretty much impossible (people have been working on active anti torpedo weapons for a long time, none work) but a 3,000lb explosive charge could destroy or damage one at a significant distance. It would work even better if you had whole clusters of big charges you could explode together. Saddamistani nuclear torpedoes are salvage fused, but the potential certainly exists to hit the torpedo hard enough that it’s broken apart before the nuke can initiate.

Also keep in mind the moment you explode one of those seabed charges sonar performance for miles around goes to shit because of all the reverberating noise (this affects even active sonar) and Saddamistan doctrine calls for firing multiple conventional torpedoes in support of a nuclear attack to act as decoys, and to destroy any ASW vessels which might be along the nuke’s intended path. Blow up the conventional decoy and you might have just cleared a path for the nuke.

None of this would be exactly cheap to deploy and more importantly to guard and maintain, but it’s not a real budget breaker of an undertaking. Defending against Saddamistani nuclear naval mines however, is pretty much solely a matter of sinking the submarine before it emplaces the 150 megaton device or activates the salvage fuse circuits.

I'm going to make a note of mining the straits that lead into Byzantium at this rate. You guys make nukes look like regular fire works. Next minute you guys are going to me you are going to fire nukes anyway to clear mines then fire off a second volley of nukes. As it is, I have lots of mines in the depths that primarily attempt to deter amphibious assault. Now that you have given me.... adequate perspective on this problem, I think I will have to start taking a leaf from your book; build Nuclear mines and mine the straits and extend the sonar system and harden it against nuclear shock and EMP.

[Sea Skimmer]

Unless, of course, you just can't launch nuclear ramjets from mobile launchers...

You most certainly can and road and rail mobile launchers are the current UAR basing method; it’s a rocket boosted ramjet, all you have to do to launch it is point it in the air and let fly. You don't even need an auto level system like a ballistic missile launcher does.

The US in fact mainly intended Pluto SLAM to be used from a mobile land launcher, though air launch and hardened silos were also considered. The original 1950s design was expected to weigh about 30 tons, given the very large advances in technology since then (SLAM was absurdly bleeding edge for its time, they had to invent materials just to make the reactor) the UAR version is able to weigh somewhat less. Even 30 tons is already less weight then the SS-20 mobile IRBM the UAR uses, and much less then the 52 ton Topol-M road mobile ICBM Russia has in real life.

As for Submarine launch… the cargo hatch diameter of Saddamistans new submarine LSTs is sufficient to accommodate Pluto, but Pluto launch capability is not currently present nor planned. Saddamistan has other plans in mind for providing those submarines with nuclear capability beyond torpedoes and mines.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm going to make a note of mining the straits that lead into Byzantium at this rate. You guys make nukes look like regular fire works.

There’s a difference?

Next minute you guys are going to me you are going to fire nukes anyway to clear mines then fire off a second volley of nukes.

Well, that would work, but then I can only nuke half as many ports for a given number of nuclear torpedoes so you’re defence wouldn’t be useless. Deploying nuclear mines in peacetime however, would be more insane then even what the UAR has been doing.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, that would work, but then I can only nuke half as many ports for a given number of nuclear torpedoes so you’re defence wouldn’t be useless. Deploying nuclear mines in peacetime however, would be more insane then even what the UAR has been doing.

I thought you mentioned many posts back that you mined the straits leading into Saddamistan with nuclear mines?

[PeZook]

You most certainly can and road and rail mobile launchers are the current UAR basing method; it’s a rocket boosted ramjet, all you have to do to launch it is point it in the air and let fly. You don't even need an auto level system like a ballistic missile launcher does.

Yeah, I figured you'd need to fire it off with conventional rocket boosters anyway, since the ramjet wouldn't work under a certain speed, so it's not actually launching while spewing nuclear fallout out the back, and thus there's nothing to prevent it being launched mobile.

On another note, you guys suck

EDIT: I say we militarize the Moon! Ultimate revenge weapon - mass drivers dumping huge rocks on their heads

Of course, since they'll be arriving days after being launched, the only application of such a system would be to raze an enemy you lost a nuclear war to.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Yeah, I figured you'd need to fire it off with conventional rocket boosters anyway, since the ramjet wouldn't work under a certain speed, so it's not actually launching while spewing nuclear fallout out the back, and thus there's nothing to prevent it being launched mobile.

On another note, you guys suck

EDIT: I say we militarize the Moon! Ultimate revenge weapon - mass drivers dumping huge rocks on their heads

Of course, since they'll be arriving days after being launched, the only application of such a system would be to raze an enemy you lost a nuclear war to.

Actually, I was thinking of doing a "Yogand's core" and send the moon smashing on us, by blowing up a nuke deep in the moon.

[PeZook]

Actually, I was thinking of doing a "Yogand's core" and send the moon smashing on us, by blowing up a nuke deep in the moon.

That would have to be one big motherfucking nuke...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually, I was thinking of doing a "Yogand's core" and send the moon smashing on us, by blowing up a nuke deep in the moon.

That would have to be one big motherfucking nuke...

You bet. Something of the order of 1GTonne of TNT.

[Sea Skimmer]

I thought you mentioned many posts back that you mined the straits leading into Saddamistan with nuclear mines?

I threatened that this would be done at one point, but it never actually happened. That was on the verge of global nuclear war too, not exactly peacetime.

EDIT: I say we militarize the Moon! Ultimate revenge weapon - mass drivers dumping huge rocks on their heads

Please do go ahead and waste 400 billion dollars doing that, the US and USSR both actually considered moon based nuclear missiles. Course you’re going to need an outright guidance system on the rocks at that point, and even then a deorbit is never all that accurate…. So mainly you’ll just ensure that millions of people who are merely starving will instead be completely wiped out as the sun gets blocked out by all the dust.

Meanwhile the UAR will spend more like 8 billion to work on a surface to air missile to loft the 150 megaton Soviet RDS-220 warhead we just found some details on. Once we finish refining nuclear technology to its pratical maximum we’ll be able to upgrade that warhead to something even higher too. The new nuclear Sidewinder will help mop up the pieces.

Actually, I was thinking of doing a "Yogand's core" and send the moon smashing on us, by blowing up a nuke deep in the moon.

Wow… and yet bioweapons are bad because they might wipe out all humanity…. Yeah… this thinking makes much sense.

[PeZook]

You bet. Something of the order of 1GTonne of TNT.

If you want to drop the entire Moon on Earth, you'd need a dozen orders of magnitude more than that.

The Earth Moon moves around the common barycenter with an average speed of 1 km/s and masses 7.4E22 kg. The energy required to crash it into the earth is unimaginable.

[PeZook]

Wow… and yet bioweapons are bad because they might wipe out all humanity…. Yeah… this thinking makes much sense.

At the point where we'd use weapons like these, most of humanity is going to be starving to death anyway, and will be ravaged by common disease like the flu. And if the UAR rebuilds first, it will start rearming to do it all over again, so...

Yeah. We contracted paranoia from you