Coruscant Nights II: (w/Spoilers)

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Darth Hoth
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Darth Ruinus wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote: Or were infantry weapons in the Clone Wars of much higher power than those of the OT?
In generel werent the CD-15 the clonetroopers use a bit stronger than the E-11 the stormtroopers use? Besides that, I know that A280s the Rebels used in the Battle of Hoth can supposedly cut fully armored stormtroopers in half.

EDIT: grammar mistakes.
Yes, but did the Stormtroopers not have long-range rifles as well? They just had no need for them in the combat situations portrayed, though the Tatooine desert patrol did carry them.

I have seen no indication that, say, the battle 'droid standard handguns were in any way better than their Galactic Civil War era analogues.
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Darth Hoth wrote:Yes, but did the Stormtroopers not have long-range rifles as well? They just had no need for them in the combat situations portrayed, though the Tatooine desert patrol did carry them.
Oh, thats true, I am comparing two different types of guns. Well, werent the DC-15s still used by stormtroopers? In fact, werent most of the guns used by the Clone Army used by the Imperial Army and the Stormtroopers? If so, then I dont see any reason why the Clone Wars weapons would be stronger than the ones during the Galactic Civil War, if they are in fact mostly the same, though the GCW guns might be slightly stronger due to small improvements or something.
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Post by Lord Revan »

well the Rebel Alliance didn't have access to large amounts of essentially armored troops, that era weapons wouldn't have to be as strong.
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Lord Revan wrote:well the Rebel Alliance didn't have access to large amounts of essentially armored troops, that era weapons wouldn't have to be as strong.
That's no reason why the Empire would suddenly throw out all of their guns. They were just using what was needed.
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Post by Lord Revan »

Darth Ruinus wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:well the Rebel Alliance didn't have access to large amounts of essentially armored troops, that era weapons wouldn't have to be as strong.
That's no reason why the Empire would suddenly throw out all of their guns. They were just using what was needed.
no but it explains why clone wars era weaponary isn't in general use (those rifles in AHN aren's DC-15s or 17s IIRC), after there's probably other factors we hadn't adressed (like cost of use/ammo)
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Post by Darth Ruinus »

Lord Revan wrote:no but it explains why clone wars era weaponary isn't in general use (those rifles in AHN aren's DC-15s or 17s IIRC), after there's probably other factors we hadn't adressed (like cost of use/ammo)
Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are weaker. Which was the point of Darth Hoth's original question, whether or not Clone Wars era guns were stronger than GCW guns. I'm thinking that guns during the GCW were a bit stronger, if only due to small improvements.

Plus, I am pretty sure the same military that fields somewhere around tens of thousands of Star Destroyers and larger ships and built two Death Stars is going to have trouble finding the funding to field the same guns that a previous army fielded. Unless they spent all of their budget on their Fleet, but I doubt it.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

The Clone War era guns were larger, but this also means they are probably bulkier, more unwieldy, and quite possibly more maintenance intensive or expensive to use. And, quite probably, overkill for most purposes.

I'm sure they would still have them around and still use them (or something like them) in tyerms of size they seem to be closer to heavy repeaters. But they also use other kinds of rifles (The DLT-20 and DLT-19 for example) as long arms, and for many purposes the E-11 is more compact, and better for close quarters combat (while still retaining decent firepower.)

I doubt there was any significant "imrpvoement" between the clone Wars and the OT era that meant that the DC-15s were "outdated" - they simply didn't match the current needs of the Empire. (Much like the changes in armour, really.)

As a side note, the blaster rifle the Rebels used on Hoth was considerably more powerful than what the Imperials currently use (it could slice a stormterooper nearly in half at medium range, ,and it could put fist sized holes in the armour of AT-ATs, presumably at maximum range.)

On top of that, its a HUGE galaxy of billions of worlds. Just because in the small representative sample we see we don't notice any such guns does not mean they aren't there, or that they can't be brought out.
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Source for blaster rifles doing that kind of damage to AT-ATs? It sounds weird, as the Rebel field artillery was unable to even scratch them in the film.
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Post by Ender »

Stormtroopers are acting as a pacification force, that means a lot of urban deployments. In urban environments carbines are regarded as superior because their shorter barrels allow for easier use in the constricted environments and the loss of range is not a detriment as buildings and other objects preclude the long engagement ranges rifles would be used for.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Darth Hoth wrote:Source for blaster rifles doing that kind of damage to AT-ATs? It sounds weird, as the Rebel field artillery was unable to even scratch them in the film.
Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. They WERE firing rifles at it in the movie, so I imagine it would have to be having SOME effect. And AT-ATs are huge enough (with thick enougha rmour) we wouldnt neccesarily even notice that kind of pockmark.
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:Source for blaster rifles doing that kind of damage to AT-ATs? It sounds weird, as the Rebel field artillery was unable to even scratch them in the film.
Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. They WERE firing rifles at it in the movie, so I imagine it would have to be having SOME effect. And AT-ATs are huge enough (with thick enougha rmour) we wouldnt neccesarily even notice that kind of pockmark.
I always figured that they used the rifles against the support troops. Still, if it is in the canon...
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Darth Hoth wrote:
I always figured that they used the rifles against the support troops. Still, if it is in the canon...
They were using rifles since hte beginning of the battle.. the Walkers had to cover at LEAST 50 Km during the entire engagement, and much of the long range duelling took place over 10-15 km... do you really think stormies could have RAN all that way on foot?
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Post by Darth Hoth »

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
I always figured that they used the rifles against the support troops. Still, if it is in the canon...
They were using rifles since hte beginning of the battle.. the Walkers had to cover at LEAST 50 Km during the entire engagement, and much of the long range duelling took place over 10-15 km... do you really think stormies could have RAN all that way on foot?
Well, if that was the case (it was a while ago I watched TESB), no. I stand corrected.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Ender wrote:Stormtroopers are acting as a pacification force, that means a lot of urban deployments. In urban environments carbines are regarded as superior because their shorter barrels allow for easier use in the constricted environments and the loss of range is not a detriment as buildings and other objects preclude the long engagement ranges rifles would be used for.
I also suspect they decided to "redesign" the defensive capabilities of stormtrooper armour somewhat. For one thing, compared to Clone armor, Stormie armour seems to over alot more coverage (the white panels leave alot less of the black rubber bodysuit exposed, esp around joints and the neck area) which would be a huge defensive advantage. This may mean they redistributed the mass of the armour somewhat (the plates are thinner, but larger and thus provide more coverage), which could lead to a downgrade in resistance but provide better overall protection.)

Also, its worth noting that Visual Dictionary (and those old "Ep4 Visual guides" ) indicate that stormtrooper armor incorporates waist-mounted "heat sinks" to absorb energy, as well as an "anti laser" mesh in the armor, which suggests it has alot more than just toughness/mass to protect the trooper. I'd guess its some sot of "semi-powered" defense, akin to the armour the LAATs and other Grand Army Ground vehicles used (it absorbs and spreads out the energy of shots to reduce penetration) and probably ties into the "blast dissipation" system that Mandalorian armor uses (Jango based the Cloneterooper armor on Mandalorian armor)

Generally speaking, ST armor probably doesn't rely just on energy alone for penetration (though enough energy WILL penetrate) but also probably on power (wattage) as well as intensity (how much energy can be concentrated on a small area, for penetration purposes.). Delivering the energy faster means that the bolt might have a chance of overwhelming the mateiral properites of the armour as well as the "heat sink" absorption system. And even then, if you "pierce" the armour, that doesnt enccearily guarantee a major wound (if the blast can be diffused enough, or enough energy is absorbed, I imagine it may do little or no harm.)

If blaster "wattage" can vary (civilian models might have lower wattage than military blasterS) this can help limit the danger of blaster fire to stormtrooper armor.

There area lso ample sources that indicate that penetration does not neccesarily guarntee injury (or even a bolt tht could pierce the armour may not pierce it fully), so this probably doesn't mean that a given bolt is always going to penetrate in every circumstance.

Given the coverage/angling, (Stormie armour looks a bit more "roundeD" than clone armor) its possible the armour is designed to "deflect" shots or make for glancing hits more than direct ones, thus minimizing the odds of penetration (here, range and other factors can also play a role, such as angle and such.)

Hypothetical example: We know Clonetrooper armor can protect a clone from being vaporized/incinerated by passing through energy shields (AOTC: VD, and other sources) - this gives it quite a large energy-handling capability, but that is diffused over a large area and over a longer period. A blaster bolt, by contrast, is much more concentrated, and generally delivers its energy in a fraction of a second (so you could expect penetration by virtue of high intensity and high power as well as high energy.) And a lightsaber could hae a high intensity (lots of energy concentrated on a smaller area) but not neccearily a larger wattage (its a sustained beam, and can be in contact with the armour longer.), though alot of this depends on settings (and it could still penetrate on raw energy output.. lightsabers that can melt through blast doors in seconds won't have any trouble with stormie armor.)

The armour's "defensive" properties would seek to counter such effects as best as they can (deflect the shot away if possible, and if not, spread the energy out ove ra larger area, limiting penetration and wounding.. and at last, absorbing what energy it can before it does penetrate through.) Even if the raw energy "abosrption" ability were low, a good ability to deflect and disperse energy (and to do it rapidly) could do much to offset/mitigate damage.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Connor MacLeod wrote: its possible the armour is designed to "deflect" shots or make for glancing hits more than direct ones, thus minimizing the odds of penetration (here, range and other factors can also play a role, such as angle and such.)
IIRC it is stated as such somewhere, damned if I can remember the specific source.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: its possible the armour is designed to "deflect" shots or make for glancing hits more than direct ones, thus minimizing the odds of penetration (here, range and other factors can also play a role, such as angle and such.)
IIRC it is stated as such somewhere, damned if I can remember the specific source.
The OT visual dictionary and the EP2 ICS both mention deflecting glancing bolts. It probably got regurgitated elsewhere too.
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Post by Tiriol »

My own humble opinion about the book (some spoilers ahead):

it was an interesting read. Nothing too grandiose or epic-like: it stayed rather grim and gritty through and throughout, but didn't go to Frank Miller Territory. The novel did show an edgier, darker aspect of Coruscant's sentient life and also dealt with the problem that has been discussed on this very board and even very heatedly - the problem of droid sentience and how organic sentients treat and view them.

The potrayal of Darth Vader was a good departure from the norm and showed how much he had truly changed since his days as Anakin Skywalker. It also showed, once more, that Lord Vader is no mere brute nor does he lack finesse when he needs it (as the respected member of this forum Publius has noted in his various essays). Some of Vader's actions are very Sidious-like in their complexity and that the novel never told events from the Dark Lord's perspective added a whole new layer of menace to him. He is the mover and shaker of this piece of fiction, not his master - and his true motives remain mysterious and veiled.

The characters were interesting and well-rounded with developed personalities and backgrounds and with their own worries and personal problems. And we finally learn what became of the Lannik Jedi Master Even Piell who had disappeared from the scenes for a long time. Furthermore, the Sith holocron featured in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter makes an reappearance and gives a strange insight into Palpatine's mind: he had not destroyed the holocron with could be used as evidence against the Trade Federation and connect them to Darth Sidious so it is possible that he saved it as a proof - proof for the future Sith acolytes about his influence, schemes and hard work.

All in all, a good read and by EU standards an excellent piece of work.
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Post by Ender »

Tiriol wrote:The characters were interesting and well-rounded with developed personalities and backgrounds and with their own worries and personal problems. And we finally learn what became of the Lannik Jedi Master Even Piell who had disappeared from the scenes for a long time. Furthermore, the Sith holocron featured in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter makes an reappearance and gives a strange insight into Palpatine's mind: he had not destroyed the holocron with could be used as evidence against the Trade Federation and connect them to Darth Sidious so it is possible that he saved it as a proof - proof for the future Sith acolytes about his influence, schemes and hard work.
Different holocron. This is the one Pavan was going to buy and didn't because he pissed off the toydarian, not the one Moncar was trying to sell.

Read it, it was ok. The bit where a laser and particle beam meeting in midair halted each other like the wizard spells in Harry Potter made me roll my eyes. That as royalty of Falleen Xizor enjoyed diplomatic immunity is interesting. Impervium used as reactor shielding fits with it being a trade name for a plastoid works as light plastics are used for neutron shielding.

All in amm, kinda meh, nothing to revolutionary about it. In a small scale novel (an idea I approve of) you need more dynamic characters, and this lacked them.
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Post by Tiriol »

Ender wrote:
Tiriol wrote:The characters were interesting and well-rounded with developed personalities and backgrounds and with their own worries and personal problems. And we finally learn what became of the Lannik Jedi Master Even Piell who had disappeared from the scenes for a long time. Furthermore, the Sith holocron featured in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter makes an reappearance and gives a strange insight into Palpatine's mind: he had not destroyed the holocron with could be used as evidence against the Trade Federation and connect them to Darth Sidious so it is possible that he saved it as a proof - proof for the future Sith acolytes about his influence, schemes and hard work.
Different holocron. This is the one Pavan was going to buy and didn't because he pissed off the toydarian, not the one Moncar was trying to sell.
Is it? My mistake then.
All in amm, kinda meh, nothing to revolutionary about it. In a small scale novel (an idea I approve of) you need more dynamic characters, and this lacked them.
I think that the lack of dynamics might be the result of the author not knowing what to do with the (protagonist) characters in the long run: will some of them be spared? Will they all die? Or what?

Since the next Coruscant Nights novel will deal with Captain Typho we may not learn the lead characters' fate in some time. I'm interested to see will this become a good series or will it devolve into LotF level.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

I wanted to like this book, I really did and it had some really nice bits in it, especially in regards to the force; with different Jedi visualising the force in different ways: Master Peil uses water metaphors where as Pavan sees it all as interlocking threads. The Paladin offshoot of the Jedi knights.

It has I5, Den Dhur and Kaird from the Medstar Books, return and pretty much in character but a lot of their section seemed to be overlong on reminiscing about Medstar.

Also appearing are Xizor (from Reeves' sometimes co-author Steve Perry) who is scheming to become head of Black Sun in competition with Kaird (who wants enough power to be able to quit Black Sun), Nick Rostu a former Republic Major on the run and a new character, a Elomin called Rhinann who runs Jedi Hunts for Vader and is also trying to find Pavan to that end. It is ultimately revealed that Pavan is carrying something given to him by Anakin Skywalker, which is presumably the reason Vader wants him.

Now that's about four plot threads and I have to say, it doesn't run them together very well in my opinion, the book gets very convoluted, which really is quite needless. In act I'd think you could probably cut the Black Sun and Rostu subplots and the book would run a whole lot smoother.

Another problem with this book, is a reluctance to kill off the main characters in marked contrast to Shadow Hunter where pretty much every one dies off by the end apart from Maul and I5, (who has his memory wiped) and the book suffers for it because in away the situation's similar to Shadow Hunter, we knew Pavan couldn't prevail against Maul in that book, just like we know Kaird can't kill of Xizor and yet the book tries very very hard not to kill them even when it makes sense for them to die.

Not even the expendable girl Jedi Paladin bites it and she was prime suspect for going down fighting.

So all in all, some awesome bits, but not as good as was hoping. Bonus points for making the lighwhip seem even halfway decent.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Keep in mind this isn't a standalone book like DM:SH, but one of a trilogy. Plenty of time yet for the bulk of expendable characters to bite it. ;)
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Crazedwraith wrote: Nick Rostu a former Republic Major on the run and a new character
IIRC he is not new, but a Stover character from Shatterpoint
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Post by Crazedwraith »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: Nick Rostu a former Republic Major on the run and a new character
IIRC he is not new, but a Stover character from Shatterpoint
I know. The new character is the elomin I mention next. That comma shouldn't be a comma probably.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Hoth wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:Source for blaster rifles doing that kind of damage to AT-ATs? It sounds weird, as the Rebel field artillery was unable to even scratch them in the film.
Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. They WERE firing rifles at it in the movie, so I imagine it would have to be having SOME effect. And AT-ATs are huge enough (with thick enougha rmour) we wouldnt neccesarily even notice that kind of pockmark.
I always figured that they used the rifles against the support troops. Still, if it is in the canon...
Another thing is not all armor is created equally. And shielding and armor are not always mutually exclusive (there are many classes where shielding "impregnates" the hull or armor cladding, not to mention the odd dispersion of some of the artillery laser hits). Armor in real life is rarely uniform across a vehicle or craft; it could easily be that high-intensity-proof "active" or "power" armor covers key vulnerabilities like the legs, guns, vents, and viewports while heavy superconductive armor is the flat surfaces, and still otherwise very light ablative armor makes up the difference to keep weight down. We could be talking about active armors which only activate in response to very high intensity blasts while tolerating fist-sized low-intensity hits, or we could be talking about highly-specialized armor which is vulnerable to small arms or particular types of blaster weaponry (which covers everything from projectiles to particle beams to c-propogating laser-like weaponry) not including whatever type the heavy ARR SpecForce rifles belong to (and hence why they're using them), light ablative armor (which is deliberately supposed to vaporize to carry energy away from the vehicle, and for which large craters is not a drawback), or simply exposed unarmored or lightly armored hull (RW armored vehicles are not uniformly or completely armored).
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Crazedwraith wrote:That comma shouldn't be a comma probably.
Ooooooooh, I gotcha.
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