SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK V

[K. A. Pital]

Two stations may be excessive

In that case I will lift a multi-dock module up there and hook the ALMAZ to it.

Actually, only the ineer belts (700-1000km) are deadly

as far as I understand, passing through space of the outer belts itself is pretty damaging - GSO satellites have the highest shielding of all sats, and accumulate a hefty radiation dose through lifetime.

So...do we run a FUN-wide vote on acquiring nuclear weapons?

Producing lots of huge nukes, like the UAR does, would work - it's reasonably cheap if nuclear materials are concentrated for the greater yield, and not miniaturized.

We should probably run a vote in this thread. If most FUN nations agree, it's sealed.

[RogueIce]

In addition:

1. This is an internal security matter. It's not like he's attacking the Diocese or the Sultanate. I also have authorization from Saddamistan (OOC) as well: there is absolutely nothing illegal about what I'm doing. I'm just being discreet about it.

True, although basing them from Saddamistan might bring back some unpleasent memories if we track their flightpaths.

Although it really depends on the General. If we ask him about it and he tells all, that's one thing. We'd probably try and pressure him to find another way to deal with it other than "massive aerial bombardment" but it's probably not technically illegal. Especially since I don't think we have a formal Geneva Convention or anything like that in place. So at the moment it's basically "what anyone feels if right...and what they're able to enforce" so far as that goes.

Although if he does, for some reason, deny it (try to make himself look better? Get nervous we'd cut relations? Who knows?), that would leave you in a bit of a tricky spot.

So really, it'd be up to the Iron General how it plays out.

2. It's the Bear making a huge mess of things at the moment with his sponsored insurgents, drug runners and whatever aid is getting to the communes. Rest assured the IRT is working on where all this is coming from and we will be pissed if we can get a link.

Is it his government or rogue elements (of which he seems to have a bit of a problem with...perhaps the FUN should help him deal with that as the MESS tries to do with Mangka?) responsible?

Alas, it's the secrecy that puts the focus on you. What's been going on in the central communes wouldn't tend to get out I'd think, and Alexander doesn't seem to be in a rush to publicize it anyway. But news large-scale airstrikes and battles in the interior would tend to filter out.

As well as my embassy personnel noticing Alexander has some AT-38s in airfields. And we sure didn't give them to him. So that would tend to link you as a supplier if nothing else.

[PeZook]

The IRT was pretty careful with their bombing, IIRC. They used precision munitions and only bombed defence emplacements.

It's just war. A sad affair, but there's little sheer barbarity involved.

[PeZook]

In that case I will lift a multi-dock module up there and hook the ALMAZ to it.

I'd love to run calculations...but I'd need information on supply requirements for these stations. It may be possible for us to maintain two, especially since Selene will be migrating to Vulkan and Proton-M launches soon, leaving the Soyuz boosters free to do whatever we want.

as far as I understand, passing through space of the outer belts itself is pretty damaging - GSO satellites have the highest shielding of all sats, and accumulate a hefty radiation dose through lifetime.

Their lifetime is several years, though. We'd have to rotate the crews...but I agree, it's too much trouble for the buck.

Producing lots of huge nukes, like the UAR does, would work - it's reasonably cheap if nuclear materials are concentrated for the greater yield, and not miniaturized.

We'd start like everybody, making huge nukes first, and smaller ones as our technology improves. We'd need advanced devices to put on cruise missiles, though.

We should probably run a vote in this thread. If most FUN nations agree, it's sealed.

Yep. It's a solemn vote and an important one, so everyone should throw in their opionion.

PeZookia votes yes, obviously.

[RogueIce]

The IRT was pretty careful with their bombing, IIRC. They used precision munitions and only bombed defence emplacements.

It's just war. A sad affair, but there's little sheer barbarity involved.

Yeah. Like I said, if Alexander comes clean with it if we ask, there's not much for us to do aside from trying to get him to pull back. If he denies is when we run into problems ("Why are planes from Saddamistan bombing Alexandria without permission?").

Although one potential problem is the AT-38s. To us they're not much, but in Terra Libertia they present a massive force imbalance. If the Diocese or Sultanate take notice of that, there's likely to be an outcry over it, for obvious reasons.

In which case we'd probably be annoyed with whoever sold them to him and didn't bother to let us know. And that'd be a pretty short list of suspects. Not war tensions level, but I'd think it wouldn't help relations any.

[RogueIce]

As to the FUN and nukes, it shouldn't be that bad really. The Red Technocracy already has some, and because of the former OMSK they should definately have data and plans from that development cycle, at least up until the dissolve (the same they'd have details concerning the UKB's SCORECARD up to a point). Crossroadia is also former OMSK turned FUN I believe, though I don't think they did much in the nuke program.

Even if Stas doesn't give full details for classification reasons, it's at least a head start rather than designing from total scratch.

And this, needless to say, is something the FUN would have to do on their own if they go through with it. The MESS can't help out for obviously political reasons. It would most likely send the UAR through the roof if we did and they found out.

[PeZook]

And this, needless to say, is something the FUN would have to do on their own if they go through with it. The MESS can't help out for obviously political reasons. It would most likely send the UAR through the roof if we did and they found out.

That's understandable. I hate to even have to do that - it seems like such a waste of nuclear expertise...ugh.

[RogueIce]

And this, needless to say, is something the FUN would have to do on their own if they go through with it. The MESS can't help out for obviously political reasons. It would most likely send the UAR through the roof if we did and they found out.

That's understandable. I hate to even have to do that - it seems like such a waste of nuclear expertise...ugh.

It is annoying, and really on a technical level we shouldn't have to. Given the UAR's outlook on nuclear weapons they don't have much room to bitch reasonably.

Of course given their past rhetoric they'd probably bitch and threaten and pitch a fit anyway, no matter how unreasonable. Or they may not. We don't know. But it's probably best to not have to find out.

*shrug* I mean let's face it, with the recent close cooperation I'm sure there'd be pundits and the like who already suspect the FUN and MESS of being some kind of back-door "unified super alliance" (Coilerburg seems to at least), regardless of the fact it's not true. Going in together on a nuclear weapons program would just fuel that fire.

[K. A. Pital]

I just used a lot of sulphur to make weapons of mass destruction, since chemical weapons are not banned.

But I'd propose using quick-and-dirty cobalt bombs to gain an upper hand and an immediate capacity to annihilate the enemy in any case. Testing would be hardly possible (and not really necessary), but the deterrent potential would be enormous. Dispersal rate can be calculated easily, when using supercomputers even more so.

Detonating during deorbit, such nukes would contaminate the UAR, water and land, and with a sufficient number of them, the entire world.

It's not unfeasible; therefore, we can put an end to the nuclear war question by constructing a multiple number of protected cobalt bombs, which would have their best emplacement in orbit, and a Perimetr (deadhand) type automatic reaction system - if a large number of nuke detonations are detected on FUN territories, the cobalt warheads in orbit come into play and destroy the world.

EDIT: Rough idea: 100 ton cobalt warheads (with 20-to-30 ton H-Bombs of the Ivan type, 100 to 200 MT yield). Orbital lauch them.

On the ground even Cobalt Torpedoes would work, especially the gigantic nuclear anti-city torpedoes proposed by the USSR in the 1960s.

A wave from the multimegaton detonation of a cobalt bomb would be highly radioactive, and the city would be contaminated. More than that, the watering during pollution would make de-contamination harder... if I'm wrong, correct me.

Hardly any type of defence could be construed against such weapons.

[PeZook]

Wow...Stas has just managed to scare me.

In principle, this is the ultimate deterrent - destroy us, and we destroy the entire world. But I'm not too thrilled about putting it on a dead man's switch. Dead man's switches can fail. It should be a command-activated system, rather than one which is periodically de-activated. Controlled from the ground, the space stations and in the future - from a permanent moon-base.

And, of course, some people may have a problem with us putting mundicidal weapons in orbit

EDIT: If Shroom is indeed the soul of SD.net world, he's gonna have another nervous breakdown when he sees that

[K. A. Pital]

Stas has just managed to scare me.

I don't like the thought of millions of people dying and the world rendered permanently uninahbitable, disallowing for the survival of anyone but the folks in the super-long term shelters or "doomsday vaults".

I just took the idea of nuclear annihilation and brought it to an extreme. We should also enhance warheads with gold, zync, etc. to provide long-term contamination; in that case, the economic potential of the enemy would be crippled in entirety even if some of his people manage to survive.

But I'm not too thrilled about putting it on a dead man's switch. Dead man's switches can fail. It should be a command-activated system, rather than one which is periodically de-activated. Controlled from the ground, the space stations and in the future - from a permanent moon-base.

No, the deadman switch is not periodically de-activated. It's permanently inactive, which makes it a lot safer.

Basically, the system registeres possible nuclear detonations on Earth through observation (I'm sure you could use GEOsats for that), and in case a multitude of detonations have occured on FUN territory, the computer then assumes that a nuclear assault has taken place.

What are the failure potentials?
1) mis-identification - pretty hard to have a multitude of megaton flares on a designated territory happen any other way than a nucelar war, so it's pretty safe to say it won't fail.
2) general computer failure or error that triggers death - the potential is not much greater than human anxiety failure in case of a misidentified threat amidst tensions.
3) attempt to disable the system by attacking GEOstationary satellites with KSATs - that is a clear sign of war and the system would act accordingly in case such an attack takes place

A special code could be devised that would immediately disable the system upon transmission, for destruction, deorbit or other necessary actions.

[Shroom Man 777]

Fucking... argh.

I'm for nuclear weapons, and I was planning on writing an article stating how the vast majority of the FUN's populace is sick with the UAR and are getting weary of our slack-jawed lily-livered leadership.

The RetroRegressive Party is gonna beat ass in Parliament.

Fucking... gah.

NO COBALT WEAPONS! Goddamn it! Goddamn the Fungal Union Commission of Kinetic Ultra Penetrative Weapons of Self Assured Destruction! The FUCK-UP-W-SAD!

[PeZook]

I told you so

[K. A. Pital]

I'd say a doomsday device is much more in tune with the FUN agenda than general nuclear weapons.

The doomsday weapon is useless in a "smple" nuclear war, or as a first strike weapon (even if some nations evade contamination, imagine what it would do to many of our nationals especially those in the Central Sea and close to Saddam or Shep).

It's a strictly defensive area-denial weapon.

Shep and Skimmer's weapons are offensive and in case of war, can be used in a first strike, decapitating strike, or a variety of tactical goals, as well as in local wars.

We still need an agile nuclear arsenal, but we also need effective deterrent.

[Shroom Man 777]

Some day, we will throw the moon at them...

[DarthShady]

Goddamn Radiation Clouds! Fuck you Saddam!

How bad is this shit going to affect me? Can anyone give me an estimate?

P.S. It's time we tell the UAR to get the fuck out of Zablania. If no one else does I will.

I am really pissed of right now.

Also: It was about time we get nukes. I fully support that and Stas's Cobalt weapons. So my vote is YES.

[MKSheppard]

You people are blowing this radiation thingy out of proportion. Just stay indoors and spray the streets and sidewalks with street sweepers to keep the radiation levels down during the time it'll take the hottest isotopes to decay via half living.

And I think it's time to introduce the latest in UAR aircraft....the YRB-76B...a developmental dead end due to the YRB-76C (aka RB-77) later...

[Shroom Man 777]

Countless of people in Vanaheim, the shores of which are just a dozen KMs from Zablania - may have been caught off guard.

You are a Bond villain, Shep. I hope you're happy. I hope Sophie Marceau enjoys your plutonium balls

[PeZook]

You people are blowing this radiation thingy out of proportion. Just stay indoors and spray the streets and sidewalks with street sweepers to keep the radiation levels down during the time it'll take the hottest isotopes to decay via half living.

Yeah, which is pretty much what I'm doing. But there's people who won't stay indoors, there's livestock and improperly sealed windows, there's panic and looters and a crapload of other stuff. Shady, you're probably good: it will be unlikely you will get any significant contamination, thanks to shielding coastline of the Linconian Union and myself.

Plus, Vanaheim was right next door.

[DarthShady]

Yeah, you are probably right. Thanks.

[PeZook]

Yeah, you are probably right. Thanks.

It would still be wise to give your people iodine pills and give them a few days off, urgin them to stay indoors. Plus, there's going to be plenty of panic regardless.

On another note, the Canissians built us one fine probe

[PeZook]

BTW, remember how Canissia was optimistic about our tidal problems?

Try again. I calced the orbital periods of our moons:

(dd:hh:mm:ss)

Selene: 27:15:54:16
Chang-No: 03:04:21:01
Rhea: 00:03:21:07

Chang-No's gravity is pretty insignificant, though. But Rhea is half as big as Selene, and it orbits every three hours.

Meaning we pretty much get multiple alingments daily. The tides on Nova Terra must be pretty interesting, especially with such a big moon so close to the surface.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

For the record, the Diocese and Sultanate are nervous about the firepower the Iron General has. At the moment, they are twitchy about it because they can't get a deterrent.

Though keep in mind, the Diocese is a Byzantine Protectorate. I'd be steaming down a CVBG and several LSTs plus a container vessel bearing enough firepower to screw the Iron General if he dares to do anything funny.

[PeZook]

Heh...guys, I suggest moving one of our moons

Think about it - if Rhea orbits at 5000 kilometers, as Zor posted, then we have a CATACLYSMIC event on our hands.

Since it is, you know, SLOWING DOWN. There is still atmosphere at that altitude, meaning that Rhea will eventually crash into Terra.

Plus, there are only 4000 kilometers between the surface of Rhea and Terra. I made a visualization of the system using Orbiter, and it looks, um...weird

[phongn]

5000 km orbital radius is far too short - it's well within the Roche Limit.