Yahtzee goes after gaming web-comics

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Post by Vaporous »

Odin wrote:
Zixinus wrote:
Yahtzee implied Buckley was trying to make light of abortions, when he was doing nothing of the sort.
I admit, jumping to Lillah suddenly having an abortion was... unconventional? That the right word? But if he really has all this planned, and he really meant to do that and it wasn't a spur of the moment, "I needz some drama," it's his comic, his story. He might of lost some readers, but anybody who would really leave because of something overall trivial like that had no business reading it in the first place.
And that is the sort of logic which is why CAD sucks or even why allot of webcomics sucks.
It'd be the same thing if you quit playing a game because one of your favorite characters got killed off. Like Mass Effect *spoilers for Mass Effect, Final Fantasy 7, Star Wars, Eragon, and GTA IV*When Ashley or Kaidan and maybe Wrex get killed on Virmire, or when Aeris dies, or Brom in Eragon, or Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Roman/Kate in GTA IV. All of them more established characters than this unnamed child, and I highly doubt many people quit playing/watching/reading because of these characters dying.
Another false assumption? Good times.

No one cares about the dead animated fetus, so all of your examples here are awful and pointless. We're talking about the shitty web comic continuing to be shitty with a shitty gimmick about a miscarriage.
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Post by Braedley »

Odin wrote:Yahtzee implied Buckley was trying to make light of abortions, when he was doing nothing of the sort.
I admit, jumping to Lillah suddenly having an abortion was... unconventional?
Uh, as Hotfoot said, it wasn't an abortion, it was a miscarriage. There's no way to do a politically correct story with an abortion these days, plus it wouldn't be as emotionally traumatizing as a miscarriage. Yahtzee knows it was a miscarriage, he even said so. So instead of going on about something that a woman has a choice about and is a very dividing issue among the general public, why don't you talk about what actually happened in the comic which is something healthy women can't really control, and generally evokes sympathy among the public. If you're too stupid to realize the difference between the two, then perhaps you should shut the fuck up and go read a book on the issue.

Back onto Yahtzee's general distaste for CAD, some of his points are valid, but it's not enough to stop me from reading it. I typically find that it's funnier than PA (for which Yahtzee has an apparently unlimited supply of praise for) whenever it's not a serious story arc. I was going to say more, but I can save that for a later post.
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Post by Hotfoot »

Odin wrote:
Hotfoot wrote:You're very confused. The criticism is that Buckley went from "LOL ZANY" to "SERIOUS BUSINESS MISCARRIAGE!"

Abortion had nothing to do with it.
Yahtzee implied Buckley was trying to make light of abortions, when he was doing nothing of the sort.
I admit, jumping to Lillah suddenly having an abortion was... unconventional? That the right word? But if he really has all this planned, and he really meant to do that and it wasn't a spur of the moment, "I needz some drama," it's his comic, his story. He might of lost some readers, but anybody who would really leave because of something overall trivial like that had no business reading it in the first place.
You're a fucking idiot. First off, it's not abortions, you illiterate deaf fuck. It's MISCARRIAGES. Abortions are a choice, Miscarriages are a fucking terrible event. Second, if you actually LISTENED to the fucking rant Yahtzee made, he was referring to how quickly Buckley shifted gears from stupid gamer humor to a serious subject like a couple suffering a miscarriage. Not, as you seem intent on blathering on about, that he is making light of the subject per se. However, even if the subject is handled with extreme care, it still is jarring because the comic was not geared towards the handling of such serious issues. People come in expecting a strip on how the main character blew up a city block but it's okay because he's a lovable scamp, not how his girlfriend miscarried their accidental pregnancy, with commentary by the author about how his shrew of an ex-girlfriend miscarried and how he broke up with her after because she was a horrible person.

Now, this is not to say a humorous series cannot do serious things. Scrubs, which is full of absolute slapstick, has several very serious, very depressing episodes. However, they temper this with the fact that they've commonly handled serious subjects surrounded by the general insanity of the show. They get you ready for it by constant injections of real drama in smaller doses so that when the real drama hits, you can accept it as a logical consequence.

If Buckley had this planned or not is of little consequence, as the presentation is what makes or breaks it. The way it's presented, it seems more like an act to remove the potential baby from the equation and keep the status quo, and a cheap attempt to attempt to be "serious" between all the wacky antics. Honestly, if he really wanted to deal with that issue, he should have chosen another voice than his existing comic. It's well within his means to make a miniseries. Sure, it's his comic, and he can do what he wants, but part of that freedom is the fact that if he does something that offends people, he has to be able to take criticism. Part of the job, really. You can whine how it's not fair or whatever, but at the end of the day, we all see it, we all judge it by our various standards, and if we're not happy about it, we're sure as hell free to comment on it.

By the way, while miscarriage may seem trivial to you, talk to a couple who have suffered one. See if it's trivial to them, especially the woman. It's a sensitive subject, and while it's not a forbidden one, anyone attempting to do a story on it is taking their chances, and they should know it. Buckley said he accepted the consequences, but given his past behavior, I doubt that he actually meant that. He loves being the center of attention, and his actions have shown that time and again.

Now, personally, I read CAD on a semi-regular basis. His humor bits are usually pretty funny, but as a person, I don't like him, and the "serious" bits of his comic always feel pretty badly tacked on. Good for a chuckle, but not much more. This arc hasn't stopped me from reading it, but it's lowered my opinion of him, though I do give him credit for having a touch of class in handling it. However, it doesn't look like it's over yet, so I'm reserving final judgment until I see where he goes with this.
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Post by Odin »

I accidentally typed abortion. My bad. And maybe trivial was the wrong choice of words.

Bah, I don't know anymore. Shutting up.
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Post by Zixinus »

It'd be the same thing if you quit playing a game because one of your favorite characters got killed off.
Basics in drama: It was originally divided into two big groups : a, comedy and b, tragedy.

A miscarriage is a tragedy. Otherwise CAD is a comedy.

You don't fucking mix the two. That's not convention. That's a fucking rule.

And Buckley broke it. Buckey has largely ignored and shat on every sign of criticism to ridiculous lengths. The fact that CAD's forum is mysteriously on maintenance the exact same time Yathzee stood up and dared criticize CAD is just one example.

Dark comedy downplays death and suffering, but it doesn't take it seriously, it doesn't dwell on it beyond the point to make a good joke with a little meaning sprinkled unto it. That's why its comedy.

A tragedy emphasises the horrors of death and suffering, but it might make a comic moment(s) to create irony for it and thus emphasize it even more. That's why its tragedy.

There is a clear difference. Now, there are allot more groups and sub-groups and whatnot. But the distinction between the two groups at large is clear, even today.

Artists can brake conventions but rules exist for a reason. Some are more valid then others, sometimes we get something new and interesting by breaking them but there are some rules that are just basic. This whole internet drama is the same thing.

It is possible to shift from a light-hearted setting to a tragic one and vice-versa. It is even possible to switch rapidly from one to another, in order to control the audience (I've saw a great film that did something like this). But it is not possible to switch from a comedic setting to a tragic one.

This is a fucking high-school level literature studies. Hell, this is more-or-less common sense.

*WARNING*Long-winded rant.

Buckley doesn't handle CAD like art. He handles it personally. While art is unavoidably personal, you have to realise that there is skill and technique to it. It doesn't matter if its music, comic books or glass-shaping, you make something and in the end, that something is a product of what you do as a profession. You have to handle a profession professionally, and (pardon the quote) a professional has standards: one is admitting that you have to develop what you do.

Poetry for example. Not any random, vaguely-rhyming collection of sentences is poetry. There is a deal of science to it, called prosody, that studies and analysis things like tempo of the rhyme, styles, tools and whatnot. You can write entire books about it, because there are books about it.

At first glance, these things look like the bread and butter of self-important critics. Poetry is just poetry, right? Just led the words flow, right? Wrong. Nobody was (and hopefully, still is) more interested in prosody then the actual poets. The same is true for any kind of artist. Good artist take their art seriously but also professionally, looking for flaws and errors from which they can learn and develop from. That's how art works. Sometimes bounderies and conventions, rarely even rules, are broken but the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong is doing it consciously.

"I am just doing it my way" is not an excuse. I can, for example, play on a flute and I enjoy it. But I don't do anything then bumble about. That's not necessarily art: if I am conveying something, that's accidental. If I were to start playing it to you, you would pay me to stop, because its that horrible (well, compared to some awesome flute and whistle plays I've heard and are otherwise considered mediocre).

Buckley shits not only on conventions, but also these kind of ideas. This storyline, he openly admitted, to be because his girlfriend had a miscarriage. This wasn't concious effort to brake rules: this was an impulse effort to channel his feelings. CAD becomes his speechpipe, in his own style and that's all there is to it. It's not that different if I suddenly switched from, say, a guitar song you love to my awful flute play.

And that's why "I'm doing it my way, its my comic and I do whatever I want with it" is not a good excuse, not for art anyway. Buckley isn't trying to create art: he's making a speechpipe and get money off it.

*end of rant*

Now, to see as the other members will tear me apart.

*what fun*
Last edited by Zixinus on 2008-07-03 09:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

Odin wrote:I accidentally typed abortion. My bad. And maybe trivial was the wrong choice of words.

Bah, I don't know anymore. Shutting up.
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Hotfoot basically said what I was going to say. Buckley is a selfish wierdo twat, who views himself as a writing visionary. A lot of webcomic creators are like this, but CAD is special in that it is...ah hem, WAS, popular.

I've always disliked CAD because of the aforementioned issues with its overuse and abuse of dialouge and it's reliance on pop culture references to try and be funny. But while before I and many others just didn't give a shit about it, Buckley has seen to it that now people actively despise him.
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Post by Braedley »

Odin wrote:I accidentally typed abortion. My bad. And maybe trivial was the wrong choice of words.
Twice? After you were corrected? It's one thing to make an honest mistake in the first post (how you could confuse the two in the first place is beyond me), but to repeat that mistake when you've been made aware of it doesn't look good.
Bah, I don't know anymore. Shutting up.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Buckley did cheap drama in order to make his comic out as "better" than the others.

Yahtzee called him on it.

What Buckley did is indefensible.
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Post by Braedley »

Zixinus wrote:<snip>

Now, to see as the other members will tear me apart.

*what fun*
I'm not going to tear you apart, because you're right. CAD has become the soapbox from which Tim periodically stands on. But also realize that part of the reason for this is that Tim doesn't derive the bulk sum of his income from the ads on his site, it comes from his physical ventures such as Analog and D-Pad, and various merch. I by no means defend this reasoning, but I understand it. It doesn't excuse the non-artistic elements, such as the sudden transition from comedy to tragedy, but to single Tim out isn't correct either. I only read a handful of webcomics, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't another one out there (hell another game based webcomic even) that wasn't at fault for the same things that CAD is. And none of this is going to stop me from reading every MWF either.

Having said that, I'm not going to leave Yahtzee unscathed. He's a game reviewer, not a gaming community reviewer. Obviously, every reviewer has to step back from the core and look at the surroundings, if just to look at the bigger picture, but to rip on one member of the community without naming them while openly praising another member of the community is cowardly at best. Perhaps if it wasn't so blatant that he was ripping on CAD (and only CAD), then maybe I'd be fine with it, but he left little to the imagination for any regular reader. And there was that little "I didn't name names, so don't shot me" disclaimer at the end, in which he was saying that it could be anyone in the community but PA that he was talking about. There was a better way to go about this, and leaving it generic would have meant that anyone who was not familiar with the distaste that Yahtzee has for Tim and CAD would not know that it was about CAD, but anyone familiar would know.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Zixinus wrote: Buckley shits not only on conventions, but also these kind of ideas. This storyline, he openly admitted, to be because his girlfriend had a miscarriage. This wasn't concious effort to brake rules: this was an impulse effort to channel his feelings.
No, no, you've got it wrong, and the truth is even more horrible.

It's based on one of his ex-girlfriends who had a miscarriage, and as the newspost to the comic implied, she was affected by it a hell of a lot more than he was. He also said in the newspost that from the very beginning that her character was introduced, he was going to have her have a miscarriage. That's right, the female lead is introduced specifically because he wanted to have a comic about a miscarriage.
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Post by Hotfoot »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Zixinus wrote: Buckley shits not only on conventions, but also these kind of ideas. This storyline, he openly admitted, to be because his girlfriend had a miscarriage. This wasn't concious effort to brake rules: this was an impulse effort to channel his feelings.
No, no, you've got it wrong, and the truth is even more horrible.

It's based on one of his ex-girlfriends who had a miscarriage, and as the newspost to the comic implied, she was affected by it a hell of a lot more than he was. He also said in the newspost that from the very beginning that her character was introduced, he was going to have her have a miscarriage. That's right, the female lead is introduced specifically because he wanted to have a comic about a miscarriage.
Actually, it's even worse than that. I didn't want to go into this initially, but let's look at a selected portion of the newspost.
Tim Buckley wrote:I know from personal experience what it can do to a relationship. Some many years ago, long before I started the comic, I was in a relationship and we suffered a miscarriage. Now, this relationship was toxic to begin with and doomed to fail regardless, so that the miscarriage was the straw that broke the camel's back came as no surprise. Still, it's a tough thing to handle because it's nobody's fault. There's nobody you can blame.
He broke up with this Ex-Girlfriend that he calls "Toxic" just after the miscarriage, stating that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe I'm reading into this more than I should, but basically, he got a girl he couldn't stand pregnant, stayed with her, only to break up with her as soon as the baby was gone.

That, to me, speaks volumes about his character.
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Post by darthbob88 »

*reads DPDP and Hotfoot's posts*

What the hell? I call massive piles of bullshit, there is no conceivable way a human being could do something like that.

Although, in light of the other atrocities committed by humanity, this kind of thing is marginally believable. Only marginally, though.
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Post by Hotfoot »

darthbob88 wrote:*reads DPDP and Hotfoot's posts*

What the hell? I call massive piles of bullshit, there is no conceivable way a human being could do something like that.

Although, in light of the other atrocities committed by humanity, this kind of thing is marginally believable. Only marginally, though.
What, you can't imagine that a self-absorbed prick would have unprotected sex with a girl he barely tolerates for the sex itself, then gladly sheds her when she can no longer threaten him with child support, then later, when he's successful, rubs her face in it by writing a story about her terrible loss just as a hook to net new readers, stir up controversy, and keep the limelight on himself for just a little bit longer?

No question, that's shitty especially if it went down exactly like that, but there is far, far worse in this world. One need only look a the nightly news for proof of that.
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Post by Yogi »

Semi-relevant question: Why do people concentrate their ire on Control-Alt-Del? I mean, no it's not a very good Webcomic, but there are tons of Webcomics that range from "not very good" to "kill it with fire". Why so much drama surrounding this one?
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Post by Hotfoot »

In part, I imagine, because it's reasonably successful, despite Buckley's actions to alienate his fan base.
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Post by SilverWingedSeraph »

Yogi wrote:Semi-relevant question: Why do people concentrate their ire on Control-Alt-Del? I mean, no it's not a very good Webcomic, but there are tons of Webcomics that range from "not very good" to "kill it with fire". Why so much drama surrounding this one?
Probably because it's horribly popular for something of such low quality, I suspect. I know that there are plenty of other webcomics out there that are even worse, but CAD spreads the idea that "Hey, you don't need to improve, or listen to constructive criticism, or even put in any effort! Just copy-paste until your 'ctrl' 'c' and 'v' keys are worn down to fucking nubs, and steal your background art from google imagesearch." and still be popular as hell.
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Post by Vaporous »

Braedley wrote: Having said that, I'm not going to leave Yahtzee unscathed. He's a game reviewer, not a gaming community reviewer. Obviously, every reviewer has to step back from the core and look at the surroundings, if just to look at the bigger picture, but to rip on one member of the community without naming them while openly praising another member of the community is cowardly at best. Perhaps if it wasn't so blatant that he was ripping on CAD (and only CAD), then maybe I'd be fine with it, but he left little to the imagination for any regular reader. And there was that little "I didn't name names, so don't shot me" disclaimer at the end, in which he was saying that it could be anyone in the community but PA that he was talking about. There was a better way to go about this, and leaving it generic would have meant that anyone who was not familiar with the distaste that Yahtzee has for Tim and CAD would not know that it was about CAD, but anyone familiar would know.
All irrelevant because of the articles on his website where he names names. Not exactly cowardly, especially since he directed the video at an audience that would almost certainly get the joke anyway.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

darthbob88 wrote:*reads DPDP and Hotfoot's posts*

What the hell? I call massive piles of bullshit, there is no conceivable way a human being could do something like that.
It's right there on his website, unless of course he took it down.

Here's Scott Kurtz's take on part of the newspost:
Scott Kurtz wrote:Today's CAD post just illustrates what a fucking animal Tim is:
Some many years ago, long before I started the comic,

So how old was he? 15? 16? The comics been going for five years and he's in his 20's right?
I was in a relationship and we suffered a miscarriage. Now, this relationship was toxic to begin with and doomed to fail regardless, so that the miscarriage was the straw that broke the camel's back came as no surprise.

This relationship was horrible and toxic and doomed, but that did not keep me from fucking her without a condom? What the fuck?
It was a pregnancy neither of us wanted in the first place, so the event didn't effect me nearly as much as it would, say, a couple who was trying for a child.

You see, kids, when UNWANTED babies die, it doesn't hurt. I mean now we're free of that fucking baby, right? Only WANTED babies cause emotional damage when they die.
Still, I saw the emotions it can bring up first hand, and I saw how it could truly hurt someone.

I saw them. SAW. Observed. Luckily I wasn't affected. But I saw how many emotions it can bring up in others.
It's a tough thing to handle because it's nobody's fault. There's nobody you can blame.

I mean, other than it being my fault for not wearing a condom when I fucked that girl with a working womb in that toxic relationship that was doomed to failure in the first place. Other than that, who can you blame? Certainly not me.
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Post by Odin »

I was in a relationship and we suffered a miscarriage. Now, this relationship was toxic to begin with and doomed to fail regardless, so that the miscarriage was the straw that broke the camel's back came as no surprise.

This relationship was horrible and toxic and doomed, but that did not keep me from fucking her without a condom? What the fuck?


It's a tough thing to handle because it's nobody's fault. There's nobody you can blame.

I mean, other than it being my fault for not wearing a condom when I fucked that girl with a working womb in that toxic relationship that was doomed to failure in the first place. Other than that, who can you blame? Certainly not me. [/quote][/quote]

Last thing I'm going to post in this thread, condoms can fail
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Post by Zixinus »

Last thing I'm going to post in this thread, condoms can fail
Yeah, about 0.001% of the time, even less so when properly used, nevermind if you use a proper brand for it. It's halfway impossible if you use a bit more then a condom as well, like the pill or one of the many other methods of birth control (or having sex just that way but let's not get into that).

And even if they do, its part of the whole "lets have sex" thing that you understand and accept the risk of getting her pregnant.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Zixinus wrote:Yeah, about 0.001% of the time, even less so when properly used
It's more like 2% failure when properly used. Combined with other forms of contraception then the risk of pregancy gets measured in decimal percentages.

This entirely getting away from the point, which is that Tim Buckley is a fucktard.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

"The relationship was doomed to fail, but I was gonna get as much pussy out of it as possible, but as a result of that this person I was going to abandon anyway ended up miscarrying" is what it says, reading between the lines.
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Post by CaptHawkeye »

It's fucked up the ass. He's covering his own ass yet admitting that he never gave a shit in the first place about his unborn child. He's a paragon of moral righteousness.
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Post by Shogoki »

I think this image explains everything there is to be explained about why the writer is a complete fucktard.

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Zixinus
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Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
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Post by Zixinus »

It's more like 2% failure when properly used. Combined with other forms of contraception then the risk of pregancy gets measured in decimal percentages.
While more correct data, it still is part of the point: when you have sex, even protected sex, you must accept the risk of pregnancy regardless how small.

EDIT: Also, Yethzee video isn't a direct attack on CAD. He cites CAD as an example of internet drama. He likes Penny Arcade, and I am guessing here, because they were the first gaming webcomic and they did their stuff seriously. He doesn't hate webcomics as a whole, he even has a section of his site where he shows a list of his favourites (or good ones at least, I don't remember). The video does take a shot at CAD but its point is againts the entire gamer webcomics (for which the "I named no one, so if you feel targeted that speaks of you" massage was for).
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