Morality question about [i]Andromeda[/i]

[Crossover_Maniac]

In the pilot episode, Dylan falls into the Nietzcheans' trap and is faced a fleet of 10,000 ships. His first officier, also a Nietzchean, tells him to deploy a Nova bomb. Dylan refuses. The system they're in is inhabited by a half-billion sentients. However, by refusing to do so, the Commonwealth is lost and a war ensues costing even more lives. And let's not forget the 300 years of utter chaos and distruction that occurred. So, should Dylan used the Nova bomb to destroy the Nietzchean fleet?

[RedImperator]

It depends on if there was a reasonable chance of stopping the fleet by other means.

[Tsyroc]

In the pilot episode, Dylan falls into the Nietzcheans' trap and is faced a fleet of 10,000 ships. His first officier, also a Nietzchean, tells him to deploy a Nova bomb. Dylan refuses. The system they're in is inhabited by a half-billion sentients. However, by refusing to do so, the Commonwealth is lost and a war ensues costing even more lives. And let's not forget the 300 years of utter chaos and distruction that occurred. So, should Dylan used the Nova bomb to destroy the Nietzchean fleet?

I think Dylan was right in not deploying Nova bombs. There's no way he could know that the Commonwealth would fall if he didn't, so at that point killing a half billion civilians to "save" the Commonwealth would have definately gotten him courts martialed. At that time it was inconceivable to
Dylan that a Nietzchean fleet of that size could overthrow the Commonwealth. Andromeda had to explain to him how it was possible after it had happened.

Rhade's perspective when recomending Nova bombs is turly Nietzchean. He probably knows more about the Nietzchean plans and he expects them to work so he gave his friend a viable option to defeat those plans. If Dylan had taken it he would have saved the Commonwealth and probably regained the respect of the Nietzcheans who wanted to overthrow the Commonwealth because it was weak.


I'd like to add a question to the morality issue. Were the Nietzcheans correct in their assesment of the Commonwealth? Considering the Magog, and the world ship that is heading towards the Commonwealth wasn't it wrong to make peace with the Magog? I certainly would be very angry if a billion+ of my people were killed/infested by Magog and my government didn't do everything in its power to wipe them out.

[XaLEv]

No, because he didn't know that the Commonwealth would fall.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Good point. Dylan was going to warn the fleet but got caught in the time dilation created by the blackhole. So, this poll is sort of Monday morning quarterbacking. However, even if he warned the fleet in time, they'd still had to deal with the Nietzcheans in a costly war and that might have costed more lives than the half-billion on that planet.

[Nephilim]

I'd like to add a question to the morality issue. Were the Nietzcheans correct in their assesment of the Commonwealth? Considering the Magog, and the world ship that is heading towards the Commonwealth wasn't it wrong to make peace with the Magog? I certainly would be very angry if a billion+ of my people were killed/infested by Magog and my government didn't do everything in its power to wipe them out.

No, what the Nietzcheans did completely drove the galaxy to the hands of the Magog later on. In the Slipstreambbs, alot of fans have asked why the treaty of Antares (the treaty which led the Nietzcheans to even think of attacking the Commonwealth) was signed, and they have answered that it was to give the Commonwealth time to build up its forces, and this is supported by the dialogue from throughout the series. The Andromeda was launched only a couple of years after the first Magog attacked on Brandenburg Tor, and then on one of its first missions, Andromeda found the Magog World Ship. This was exactly what led to the signing of the Treaty, eventhough the Nietzcheans opposed to it completely - to the point of 15 Nietzchean worlds threatening to ceceed from the Commonwealth, but they later backed down. After the Treaty was signed, High Guard began development of the Wrath of Achilles, the most heavily armed ship that High Guard ever put into service. It was over 4 times more powerful than the Glorious Heritage Heavy Cruisers, and 3 times more powerful than the previous Deep Standoff Attack Ship. Then the Nietzcheans attacked when the ships were just entering production, with the only 2 prototypes built surviving the attacks. If the Nietzcheans hadn't attacked, the Wrath of Achilles would have been put into full production, and the Commonwealth with these ships at its main battle units would've faired a heck of alot better than the Nietzcheans did after the Battle of Witchhead, being able to only slow down the Magog invasion of Earth.

Moral of the story... the Nietzcheans fucked up majorly.

[/quote]

[Renewed_Valour1]

Well the Andromeda herself was outgunned thousands to one so she had no chance. Had she managed to escape maybe the warning might have made it to the High Guard a little quicker.

Were the Nietzcheans correct in their assesment of the Commonwealth? Considering the Magog, and the world ship that is heading towards the Commonwealth wasn't it wrong to make peace with the Magog? I certainly would be very angry if a billion+ of my people were killed/infested by Magog and my government didn't do everything in its power to wipe them out.

Well the Nietzscheans didn't know about the Worldship; that was a closely guarded secret. The High Guard didn't have the means to stop the Magog for sure at the time so they covered up the existence of the MWS. Just imagine the panic that would insure when your citizens found out a star sized ship carrying trillions of you enemies is closing in on you. Oh and they've all ready destroyed one galaxy. The Treaty with the Magog was ruse for the Commonwealth to rearm and build ships like the DSX; like one of the writers said "diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggy while looking for a big stick." The Siege Perilous II destroyers were that stick. The DSX the most heavily armed vessel the High Guard ever deployed and specialized as a Magog killer. One of the writers stated that had the High Guard had a few more vessels than 2 prototype hulls for the DSX they could have changed the path of the Nietzschean rebellion.

So in truth the only ones who came close to being as devious as the Nietzscheans was the High Guard. Both sides badly underestimated the other side and paid for it. Had the Nietzscheans known the truth about the High Guard plans and the Magog they would have never rebelled.

[Dark Primus]

Are there any pictures or websites with information on these Commonwealth starships? I would like to see them for myself.

[MagicHateBall]

http://www.allsystems.org/engineering/shipsindex.shtml is a good info site, but there's no pictures.
It's also done by the people who run the show, so everything is official, at least, if not canon.

[Stravo]

Actually in regard to the nietzchiean rebellion and how wrong they were, I thought that it was pretty evident that the Magog god had manipulated the events that led to the nietz revolt,. He directed his troops to massacre Nietsch strongholds thus getting the Nietsches pissed then when the treaty occurred it gave fuel to the fire and made the Nietsch revolt and thus destroying the only credible force that could oppose the Magog...SIGH....back when Andromeda was a well wriiten show and there was contunuity and character development....I miss that show very much. Let us not speak of the disaster that it has become.

[Tsyroc]

Actually in regard to the nietzchiean rebellion and how wrong they were, I thought that it was pretty evident that the Magog god had manipulated the events that led to the nietz revolt,. He directed his troops to massacre Nietsch strongholds thus getting the Nietsches pissed then when the treaty occurred it gave fuel to the fire and made the Nietsch revolt and thus destroying the only credible force that could oppose the Magog...SIGH....back when Andromeda was a well wriiten show and there was contunuity and character development....I miss that show very much. Let us not speak of the disaster that it has become.

That's a good point. The whole reason Yaeger was trying to recover the All Systems University record from Harper was because it had evidence that the
Magog attack on Brandenburg Tor was directed by an outside agent (Abyss).

In that case the Spirit of the Abyss really played the Nietzcheans. I think that he not only took advantage of their feelings towards the Commonwealth but also gave them a chance to flex their own egos and desires of conquest.


Now the question should be, just what have the Vedrans been doing the last 300 years?

[Stravo]

Actually in regard to the nietzchiean rebellion and how wrong they were, I thought that it was pretty evident that the Magog god had manipulated the events that led to the nietz revolt,. He directed his troops to massacre Nietsch strongholds thus getting the Nietsches pissed then when the treaty occurred it gave fuel to the fire and made the Nietsch revolt and thus destroying the only credible force that could oppose the Magog...SIGH....back when Andromeda was a well wriiten show and there was contunuity and character development....I miss that show very much. Let us not speak of the disaster that it has become.

That's a good point. The whole reason Yaeger was trying to recover the All Systems University record from Harper was because it had evidence that the
Magog attack on Brandenburg Tor was directed by an outside agent (Abyss).

In that case the Spirit of the Abyss really played the Nietzcheans. I think that he not only took advantage of their feelings towards the Commonwealth but also gave them a chance to flex their own egos and desires of conquest.


Now the question should be, just what have the Vedrans been doing the last 300 years?

At this point, I don't think it matters much, the writing has become so abbysmal that it could never be what was orginally intended OR for that metter Original. I REALLY HATE that they killed that show's creativity

[Tsyroc]

Actually in regard to the nietzchiean rebellion and how wrong they were, I thought that it was pretty evident that the Magog god had manipulated the events that led to the nietz revolt,. He directed his troops to massacre Nietsch strongholds thus getting the Nietsches pissed then when the treaty occurred it gave fuel to the fire and made the Nietsch revolt and thus destroying the only credible force that could oppose the Magog...SIGH....back when Andromeda was a well wriiten show and there was contunuity and character development....I miss that show very much. Let us not speak of the disaster that it has become.

That's a good point. The whole reason Yaeger was trying to recover the All Systems University record from Harper was because it had evidence that the
Magog attack on Brandenburg Tor was directed by an outside agent (Abys
s).

In that case the Spirit of the Abyss really played the Nietzcheans. I think that he not only took advantage of their feelings towards the Commonwealth but also gave them a chance to flex their own egos and desires of conquest.


Now the question should be, just what have the Vedrans been doing the last 300 years?

At this point, I don't think it matters much, the writing has become so abbysmal that it could never be what was orginally intended OR for that metter Original. I REALLY HATE that they killed that show's creativity

I know what you mean. I think the production values have gone up some in the second season but Kevin Sorbo was allowed too much clout in running the show. Not sticking with Robert Hewitt Wolfe was a bad idea because he was behind the "arcs" that made the show interesting when otherwise it was kind of iffy.

KS was also the one behind dumping the orignal theme song, which I thought was cool. It certainly made Andromeda stand out. The current opening is awful. At least they kept the original for the first season DVDs.

Two other things in the 2nd season I'd like answers for. Why the change with Trance? What's with that stupid multi-barreled cannon they have Tyr carrying around in a couple of episodes? Overcompensating for somethign? Because it seems to me that force lances are pretty good weapons and much easier to carry.

[Stravo]

You know what's scary Tsyroc? Its that you can tell precisely when Wolfe was fired. The quality of the episodes went straight to hell. It resembles Hercules in space now. Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed hercules, but Andromeda is NOT Hercules. Andromeda was the freshest most orginal and well written sci fi series to come out in a LONG time. I was ready to rank it right up there with ST:OS and B-5. But then they fired wolfe....what a disaster.

GONE was continuity, by far the BEST aspect of Andromeda. Actions had consequences that lived on into other episodes, events that happened in teh past were mentioned later on, character development actually mattered. (Unlike that abortion Voyager) GONE was the awesome ambiguity of Tyr, one of the best characters in sci fi in many moons. Now Tyr is just a lap dog for Dylon. Dylon has become this hunky hero who can do no wrong. Its just GROSS.

As I understand it, they got rid of the old Trance because the execs believed that the audience was just not "getting" her. They wanted her to have an edge, and they also ordered her tail gone because they thought the SFX for it were awful and it looked cheap. ( I always considered it part of her charm.) Those decisons were the ones that started pushing Wolfe overboard.

BTW I hear their ratings have dripped dramatically since last season, I only pray it goes away before it goes down the road of Earth Final Conflict....

[Tsyroc]

You know what's scary Tsyroc? Its that you can tell precisely when Wolfe was fired. The quality of the episodes went straight to hell. It resembles Hercules in space now. Don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed hercules, but Andromeda is NOT Hercules. Andromeda was the freshest most orginal and well written sci fi series to come out in a LONG time. I was ready to rank it right up there with ST:OS and B-5. But then they fired wolfe....what a disaster.

I liked Hercules too. The action, the interesting/campy take on Greek mythology, it was fun. There was no reason to make Andromeda like
"Hercules in Space". Maybe KS and co didn't notice but shows like Hercules &
Xena etc... have faded in popularity after a brief oversaturation of the type.. Andromeda smartly started with the idea of having arcs and mysteries built into it as a hook. It was stuff like that kept me interested in watching the show as it got going. It was those same kind of things that made me go from a lackadasical B5 watcher in season 1 to a fairly hard core fan from the 1st season finale on.

GONE was continuity, by far the BEST aspect of Andromeda. Actions had consequences that lived on into other episodes, events that happened in teh past were mentioned later on, character development actually mattered. (Unlike that abortion Voyager) GONE was the awesome ambiguity of Tyr, one of the best characters in sci fi in many moons. Now Tyr is just a lap dog for Dylon. Dylon has become this hunky hero who can do no wrong. Its just GROSS.

The continuity was definately the best part of the Andromeda story. When the show originally started I thought it looked like (with the money they had) the creators had looked at the most recent succesful sci-fi shows (B5, Farscape & DS9) and used what worked in what ways they could. I know the show is in syndication but they should have learned from B5 that it is possible to make a show that clearly has an ongoing story and still pick up new viewers, which was supposedly the reason KS wanted to get away from the "arc" format and stick with more stand alone shows. It looks like they are even getting away from the original arc of restoring the Commonwealth because it looks like they've done it. I think they realized too late that getting rid of all the arcs was stupid and now we have what appears to be a revamped mystery for Trance and that stupid crap with Tyr's son being the genetic messiah of the Nietzcheans.

One of the problems I currently see with the show is what I call the "Legendary Kirk Syndrome". Mostly the legend of Kirk as a great captain
developed after the show, or at least it didn't appear to be too blatantly pushed on the show. Now it seems that all sci-fi captains have to be the hottest of the legendary hot shit captains. It was tried with Janeway and just made Voyager more laughable/unwatchable and they've started doing it with Dylan. They've made jokes at the expense of Tyr that Dylan has to save the day because he's the star. They've gotten carried away with him and his miraculous plans and back-up plans. At least early on things were believable or appeared to make sense but there are just so many times that we can believe that Dylan has outsmarted everyone and pulled a solution out of his butt. Wouldn't he be a better captain, if less dramatic, if he was shown to have plans that kept him from needing ass pulling back up plans?

As I understand it, they got rid of the old Trance because the execs believed that the audience was just not "getting" her. They wanted her to have an edge, and they also ordered her tail gone because they thought the SFX for it were awful and it looked cheap. ( I always considered it part of her charm.) Those decisons were the ones that started pushing Wolfe overboard.

BTW I hear their ratings have dripped dramatically since last season, I only pray it goes away before it goes down the road of Earth Final Conflict....

I liked Purple Trance with tail better than what I've currently seen of Gold Trance. She was alien, mysterious, cute & sweet all in one package. The new edge Trance is lacking so far.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Now the question should be, just what have the Vedrans been doing the last 300 years?

Very busy.... Watch "The Fair Unknown" and some of what the Vedrans have been up to will be revealed.

[Tsyroc]

Now the question should be, just what have the Vedrans been doing the last 300 years?

Very busy.... Watch "The Fair Unknown" and some of what the Vedrans have been up to will be revealed.

Right, that's the reason I actually thought they'd been doing something for the last 3 hundred years instead of hideing or trying to get out of their own solar system. This episode really only showed that the Vedrans most likely cut themselves off from the slipstream, it wasn't done to them they chose to do.

They sort of left the rest of the Commonwealth hanging out to dry don't you think?