French Soldier shoots 17 during drill

[FSTargetDrone]

Update:

Independent.co.uk

French army chief resigns after shooting incident

Reuters

Tuesday, 1 July 2008

French army chief of staff General Bruno Cuche resigned today after a soldier fired live ammunition instead of blanks at a weekend military show and injured 17 people, the presidential office said.

President Nicolas Sarkozy had pledged to react rapidly and severely and to seek explanations from the army.

"The President, the head of the armies, has accepted the resignation presented by army General Bruno Cuche, head of the land army," said a statement from Sarkozy's office.

Cuche answers to a higher-ranking officer in charge of the overall armed forces. Sarkozy is the ultimate head of the armed forces in France.

The incident occurred during a military show by the Third Marine Parachute regiment, open to the public in the southern French town of Carcassonne. The soldier has been questioned by police.

The wounded were mostly members of the public who had been watching the soldiers simulate an attack and included a 3-year-old boy who was hit in the heart and in the arm.

The condition of the boy had stabilised after doctors performed an operation.

That kid will be lucky as hell if he survives, especially after getting hit in the heart.

[chitoryu12]

I do question this having been an accident, really it cannot be an accident no matter the intent of the action, it was gross criminal negligence. However if the shooters intent was to kill people, then its hard to see how he didn’t kill anyone.

He was most likely just an idiot trying to freak out the crowd by shooting at them in a display of stupid bravado. Kinda like the classic "BANG" flag from a gun barrel, but with more bang than "BANG!"

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

From what I understand about the action in the FAMAS it's not gas-operated like our native assault rifles but is instead a blow-back weapon, where the gas operates directly in the chamber and on the bolt, instead of going down the barrel and comming back up through a tube.

In addition, if you have a fully automatic weapon you can send half your mag down range on a good squeeze of the trigger. I recall in ROTC some douche a gun on 'auto' instead of 'semi' for our M4/M16 quals and when he squeezed the trigger he got almost half his mag out. And some folks when reloading a magazine don't always look at it, which I would assume this fellow did after firing some blanks.

I wouldn't put so much on the guy who shot the people unless he hand filled his magazines. An error like that, unless done intentionally, is hardly ever the direct fault of the person involved.

[FSTargetDrone]

The number of wounded has been amended to 16:

French army chief resigns after shooting

By CECILE ROUX – 1 hour ago

PARIS (AP) — France's army chief resigned Tuesday following a weekend military show in which 16 people were shot and wounded when real bullets were used instead of blanks. 's resignation, Sarkozy's office said Tuesday, and the defense minister suspended the use of blank munitions at public military shows.

The soldier who fired the bullets was handed preliminary charges for involuntary injury. The 28-year-old had been taken into custody soon after Sunday's display of hostage-freeing techniques at the Laperrine military barracks in southern France, in which 16 people were hit.

Most of those injured were civilians, and three were children. Officials at a hospital in Toulouse, where five of the victims were being treated, said their condition was stable. A day earlier, hospital officials had said none of the injuries appeared life-threatening.

Officials had earlier said 17 people were injured, but Montpellier Prosecutor Brice Robin on Tuesday put the total at 16.

In a statement, Cuche said his decision to resign was a direct response to the incident.

"As the military chief, I must fully accept my responsibilities," the statement said.

Speaking on France-Info radio, Defense Minister Herve Morin praised Cuche, describing him as "a man with a conscience" who had made the decision to resign and had not been forced out.

"He felt that the ... tragedy, beyond the incident linked to personal mistakes, revealed organizational defaults, malfunctionings," Morin later told reporters. He added that the general had raised the possibility of resigning on Sunday.

The military blamed the shooting, at a parachute regiment's open day for the public, on "serious failings."

Robin said the shooting appeared to be unintentional.

"According to his (the soldier's) early statements, it appears that he made a mistake while loading his gun," Robin said. "This act was absolutely not premeditated; I want to be clear about this point."

The soldier said he "forgot" to hand in unused bullets, as rules stipulate, and then mistakenly loaded his weapon with those munitions, Robin said.

The soldier, a sergeant, was placed under judicial control and freed pending the investigation.

Under French law, preliminary charges mean investigating judges have strong reason to suspect involvement in a crime. Judges decide later if there is enough evidence for a trial.

Without waiting for the results of the judicial and military investigations, Morin ordered the army chief of staff to prepare punishments for those responsible, the ministry said in a statement. It did not elaborate on what the sanctions would be.

Sarkozy had promised there would be "consequences" after the shooting.

(This version CORRECTS number of injured to 16, not 17, reflecting new remarks by prosecutor.)

[FSTargetDrone]

I wouldn't put so much on the guy who shot the people unless he hand filled his magazines. An error like that, unless done intentionally, is hardly ever the direct fault of the person involved.

I don't see how this absolves him very much. He was the one to actually fire the weapon and it is his responsibility to make sure he is away of what he is doing. It seems he's at least equally culpable of not more so.

[Kamakazie Sith]

From what I understand about the action in the FAMAS it's not gas-operated like our native assault rifles but is instead a blow-back weapon, where the gas operates directly in the chamber and on the bolt, instead of going down the barrel and comming back up through a tube.

In addition, if you have a fully automatic weapon you can send half your mag down range on a good squeeze of the trigger. I recall in ROTC some douche a gun on 'auto' instead of 'semi' for our M4/M16 quals and when he squeezed the trigger he got almost half his mag out. And some folks when reloading a magazine don't always look at it, which I would assume this fellow did after firing some blanks.

I wouldn't put so much on the guy who shot the people unless he hand filled his magazines. An error like that, unless done intentionally, is hardly ever the direct fault of the person involved.

I would. That's why I posted the four rules of firearms that everyone should be following. I would be very shocked if there's a first world country out there that doesn't teach similiar rules.

[Ma Deuce]

From what I understand about the action in the FAMAS it's not gas-operated like our native assault rifles but is instead a blow-back weapon, where the gas operates directly in the chamber and on the bolt, instead of going down the barrel and comming back up through a tube.

Even blowback-operated firearms like the FAMAS require BFAs, because without something for the gas to push against (like a bullet) there isn't going to be enough recoil or gas pressure to cycle the action.

[Pablo Sanchez]

You can empty a full 30 round magazine (17 people wounded suggests that’s how much ammo was fired, not perfect accuracy) in under 3 seconds with a typical modern submachine gun.

The weapon being a FAMAS with a cyclic rate between 900 and 1100 rounds per minute, a soldier could empty his magazine in under 1.5 seconds.

[Sidewinder]

I'm reminded of an incident during a US Army exercise, which started with firing of live ammo (I think it was for marksmanship qualification), followed by the use of MILES. During the transition from using live ammo to blanks, a soldier unintentionally retained a magazine of live ammo, which he gave to another soldier who was out of ammo (this occured inside of an IFV, with the resulting poor visibility contributing to the accident). The second soldier shot and killed one of his comrades, failed to notice that the blank firing adaptor was shot off, and failed to provide first aid to the one who was shot because he assumed the casualty was "playing MILES."

The point is that accidents happen DESPITE all the training and precautions a professional takes to prevent them.

He was most likely just an idiot trying to freak out the crowd by shooting at them in a display of stupid bravado. Kinda like the classic "BANG" flag from a gun barrel, but with more bang than "BANG!"

I've personally experienced such stupid bravado in training, starting with an instructor firing an M16 (loaded with blanks) INDOORS (a recipe for hearing loss), and another instructor using a BULLHORN to shout into the ears of trainees.

[chitoryu12]

According to the Telegraph, it wasn't bravado, but rather bad tactics.

Seventeen people were injured, including five children, after the man opened fire at a barracks in the south-western city of Carcassonne.

"Suddenly, people were falling. We thought it was part of the exercise, and then we saw blood," said one witness.

The soldier who fired the shots was arrested, but an army spokesman insisted that Sunday's incident was "99.99 per cent" likely the result of an "unintentional" error.

Among the fifteen civilians injured were a three-year-old boy and a six-year-old girl who were both operated on overnight. Both are now in a stable condition. Two soldiers were also injured.

According to one witness, seven or eight soldiers with guns took part in the exercise, with one of them standing among hundreds of spectators pretending to be a terrorist.

Immediately after the real shots were fired, "an official shouted over the loudspeakers "Cease fire!'," he said.

"There were loads of children," he said. "They all saw a three-year old girl or boy in a really bad way."

The soldier who fired the real rounds is a "battle-hardened" sergeant just back from peacekeeping operation in Chad, with no history of behavioural or psychological problems.

While the shooting was almost certainly an accident, Hervé Morin, the French defence minister said: "I cannot rule out anything because we don't know what might be going on in a man's head."

He said the man had first fired blanks and then loaded a fresh magazine but this time with live bullets.

"Why did he have it in his pocket?" he asked.

He said that it was difficult to understand how an experienced soldier could confuse the two munitions, which are packed in different-coloured magazines.

President Sarkozy visited the injured yesterday in hospitals in Carcassonne and Toulouse.

He said afterwards that the lives of the most seriously injured were now out of danger.

One three-year old was shot in the heart and successfully operated on. An 11-year old boy received a bullet in a lung, but has "woken up" and is "doing fine."

"All of this translates into errors and negligence that are absolutely unacceptable," said Mr Sarkozy.

"This cannot be without consequences," he added.

So the mistake he made was not trying to scare the crowd by firing blanks at them, but rather leaving his gun on full-auto, firing at an enemy amidst hundreds of innocents, and fucking up on magazines.

[Sidewinder]

According to one witness, seven or eight soldiers with guns took part in the exercise, with one of them standing among hundreds of spectators pretending to be a terrorist.

So the French learned NOTHING from other nation's militaries' unfortunate experiences, e.g., a police officer shooting two soldiers who thought he was part of a Special Forces training exercise, when the US Army had neglected to contact law enforcement agencies to say, "Hey, we're holding an exercise in your area, where Green Berets are supporting guerillas in the fight to free their homeland from enemy occupation. We'd like you guys to play the part of the enemy"? (The relevant part is the need for proper communication and planning, e.g., the French marines telling the spectators, "We're gonna have one of our guys stand among you and pretend to be a terrorist. When the 'terrorist' starts shooting, all of you duck onto the ground while the 'good guys' shoot back, okay?")

[Enforcer Talen]

I'm reminded of an incident during a US Army exercise, which started with firing of live ammo (I think it was for marksmanship qualification), followed by the use of MILES. During the transition from using live ammo to blanks, a soldier unintentionally retained a magazine of live ammo, which he gave to another soldier who was out of ammo (this occured inside of an IFV, with the resulting poor visibility contributing to the accident). The second soldier shot and killed one of his comrades, failed to notice that the blank firing adaptor was shot off, and failed to provide first aid to the one who was shot because he assumed the casualty was "playing MILES."

The point is that accidents happen DESPITE all the training and precautions a professional takes to prevent them.

He was most likely just an idiot trying to freak out the crowd by shooting at them in a display of stupid bravado. Kinda like the classic "BANG" flag from a gun barrel, but with more bang than "BANG!"

I've personally experienced such stupid bravado in training, starting with an instructor firing an M16 (loaded with blanks) INDOORS (a recipe for hearing loss), and another instructor using a BULLHORN to shout into the ears of trainees.

Ive gone to MILES ranges with live rounds, but once I noticed them, I had them pull a vanishing act. Mistakes happen, but you can tell just by the weight of the magazine what kind of rounds they are. Additionally, they look radically different from blanks.