Metal Gear Solid 4 (With spoilers!)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 12:35pm

Forgot to ask, what did everyone get in terms of rank after completion? I got Eagle (BOOM! Headshot) while my brother got, heh, Inch Worm (apparently a good sneaker one which is, after all, the point of stealth).

I'm trying to get The Boss though. On the hardest difficulty, which is basically a single alert or bullet wound is death. I expect the Gekko to be more like the cutscene capabilities in terms of difficulty then.

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2008-07-05 02:14pm

I was saving up money to get MGS4 and a PS3 to play it on. Then I looked up the Wikipedia articles on the games (I don't mind spoilers very much).

That's it? The MG characters are suicidal nuts who think dying will help improve society?! Snake I can understand (he's told that three months from "now," the FOXDIE in him will mutate and kill everyone he comes in contact with), but Naomi? BIG BOSS?!?!

And the whole "supercomputers runs the entire world from behind the scenes" thing... What, Kojima lost interest in developing HUMAN CHARACTERS with motivations for why they wanted to run the world from behind the scenes, and plausible plans through which to do so (I doubt censoring the internet and other media to control the way people think will be effective, considering the riots that sprung up in AFRICA, of all places, over fraudulent voting)?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 08:19pm

Sidewinder wrote:I was saving up money to get MGS4 and a PS3 to play it on. Then I looked up the Wikipedia articles on the games (I don't mind spoilers very much).

That's it? The MG characters are suicidal nuts who think dying will help improve society?! Snake I can understand (he's told that three months from "now," the FOXDIE in him will mutate and kill everyone he comes in contact with), but Naomi? BIG BOSS?!?!

Uh, there's more to it than just people killing themselves. Incidentally, the FOXDIE mutation was exaggerated and found to be less of a threat. Snake would be dead of natural causes long before the virus became a threat to anyone. Naomi killed herself out of guilt over what she'd basically done through petty revenge and also helping the whole scenario perpetuate itself with her nanotech research. Big Boss was old and tired of war and had achieved his goals. I doubt he'd have had a carefree life in the public eye given his past, which is why it was important for him to state that Snake was different in that respect and had never had a real life to live.

And the whole "supercomputers runs the entire world from behind the scenes" thing... What, Kojima lost interest in developing HUMAN CHARACTERS with motivations for why they wanted to run the world from behind the scenes, and plausible plans through which to do so (I doubt censoring the internet and other media to control the way people think will be effective, considering the riots that sprung up in AFRICA, of all places, over fraudulent voting)?

Clearly you didn't get the point. The manipulation isn't anything like the effects in Zimbabwe which, not to put too fine a point on it, were so hopelessly obvious that I can't fathom why you'd think that was subtle manipulation at all. Mugabe went out of his way to tell the world to fuck off and then commit genocide. The S3 program was a perfect way to integrate propaganda from various sources, much like the government and MSM do today. Put it this way, how many really grasp some of the concepts we debate here on topics as massive as the energy and climate crisis? 95% of the public haven't a clue, and those that do invariably can't do jack.

A content, ignorant population will eat out of your hand and accept any garbage you throw at them. It's done today: with super-intelligent AIs and trillions in assets, it's a doddle.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-05 09:15pm

Haha. Valdemar isn't just a MGS4 fanboy, he actually drank the kool-aid. That's kinda sad.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 09:22pm

Stark wrote:Haha. Valdemar isn't just a MGS4 fanboy, he actually drank the kool-aid. That's kinda sad.

Something you'd like to add to this discussion, Stark? You're in the wrong thread anyway. The DW finale rant is on over in OSF.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-05 10:22pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Something you'd like to add to this discussion, Stark? You're in the wrong thread anyway. The DW finale rant is on over in OSF.

Sorry, I thought you were saying the hare-brained conspiracy merry-go-round of MGS was plausible or even easy. My mistake, lol.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 10:36pm

Stark wrote: Sorry, I thought you were saying the hare-brained conspiracy merry-go-round of MGS was plausible or even easy. My mistake, lol.

If you can't keep up Stark (where'd I say it was easy?) or fathom that my explaining something does not mean it plausible (game has feckin' psychic soldiers!), then please don't bother to comment. We don't care.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-07-05 10:38pm

Almost at the end of my first play through.

It would've been cool if instead of the Missouri they used the Admiral Lazarev. Just saying.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 10:43pm

You should have been born a pinko commie *spits*, my friend. Juz' sayin'.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-07-05 10:51pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:You should have been born a pinko commie *spits*, my friend. Juz' sayin'.

Bah. It would tie back to the origins of the series - remember Metal Gear technology came from the USSR - why not have the Russian Federation have a hand in getting revenge on that old traitor, Ocelot?

(of course, I'm still bitter that Olga Gurlukovich was stupid enough to intervene on top of Arsenal Gear in MGS2 whilst not wearing her exoskeleton)

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 10:53pm

Because Russia sucks today and always will, comrade. It is truth!

And we all know Olga wanted to show off her armpit hair again. Sadly for her, Solidus had a P90 and a hatred for all things commie and hairy.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-05 11:00pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's done today: with super-intelligent AIs and trillions in assets, it's a doddle.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:If you can't keep up Stark (where'd I say it was easy?) or fathom that my explaining something does not mean it plausible (game has feckin' psychic soldiers!), then please don't bother to comment. We don't care.

Awww, you get so catty! Rawr! Turns out the MGS plot is an absurd conspiracy pastiche, so suggesting it's sensible is a bit strange. I guess when you really really love something, you have to believe it's not Boys Own Adventure inanity?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 11:04pm

No, I just find it funny seeing you come in here to snipe and then turn this into "Why Stark doesn't like a series", which inevitably gets quite wordy and fun.

YOU'RE THE MAN NOW, DAWG!

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-05 11:07pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:No, I just find it funny seeing you come in here to snipe and then turn this into "Why Stark doesn't like a series", which inevitably gets quite wordy and fun.

YOU'RE THE MAN NOW, DAWG!

Except I never mentioned disliking it, merely that your statements regarding the plausibility of the Illuminati-like global conspiracy with magical powers were outlandish and probably fueled by fanboyism. Whoops.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-05 11:21pm

Which, again, would be you sniping at something not there. I never said it was utterly plausible (the Patriots even coming into existence is la-la land stuff anyway), I said that the mechanism isn't retarded like Mugabe's master plan of "RAR! I'M TEH KING NOW! HONEST!1".

So you win again, Stark.

Post by **Vympel** » 2008-07-06 01:24am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Because Russia sucks today and always will, comrade. It is truth!

Bah. MGS2 had AN-94s and Ka-60s. Both products of the RuFed. Nuff said.

And we all know Olga wanted to show off her armpit hair again. Sadly for her, Solidus had a P90 and a hatred for all things commie and hairy.

Yes, the P-90 with explosive bullets somehow strong enough to kill multiple RAYs.

(god MGS2 annoys me ...)

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-06 09:07am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Clearly you didn't get the point.

Explain to me how every single weapon in the world is somehow magically infected with magi-tech nano-wank which prevents it from firing?

OH NOES, THE WAR ECONOMY IS COMING TO A HALT!

Yeah, like the US is going to put nanotech to load and fire each one of it's weapons....

EDIT: Let's not forget the brilliance of MGS2 -- somehow the AI's through their l33t powers, manage to sell the US Congress and people on a hugely expensive multibillion dollar oil containment/cleanup facility, which really is a cover to hide Arsenal Gear....using the tanker which went down in NYC Harbor as a cover....

Which has just one tiny flaw -- the tanker was empty -- it was carrying the Metal Gear prototypes for the USMC, and hence there wouldn't be any oil, except for the diesel fuel for the engines....

So there's no oil slick bespoiling NYC Harbor. You can't bullshit that away, no matter how much you handwave and say ZOMG THE AI CONTROLS THE NEWS

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-06 09:10am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Which, again, would be you sniping at something not there. I never said it was utterly plausible (the Patriots even coming into existence is la-la land stuff anyway), I said that the mechanism isn't retarded like Mugabe's master plan of "RAR! I'M TEH KING NOW! HONEST!1".

So you win again, Stark.

Wow, except I didn't say you claimed it was utterly plausible at all. Simply discussing the fake-moon-landing level tinfoil-hattery as even remotely plausible is outlandish. It's not my fault you've had such a hilarious reaction to this simple statement.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-06 09:34am

But it is hilarious watching you go from simple snipe to suddenly "I R SRYS STARK!"

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2008-07-06 09:42am

MKSheppard wrote:
Explain to me how every single weapon in the world is somehow magically infected with magi-tech nano-wank which prevents it from firing?

Because that's what the future of warfare is in the MGS-verse? It's no different to the ideas of weapons with fingerprint locks, only these use nanoscale RFID for one thing. Are you going to start telling me walking nuclear equipped tanks wouldn't be proposed by the DoD now either? Wow, what a revelation. Remind me again where super-realism entered into this thing when the antagonist is mind controlling a Russian gunslinger through a transplanted arm?

Yeah, like the US is going to put nanotech to load and fire each one of it's weapons....

Like the US is also controlled by super AIs too, geez, someone would think this was a work of FICTION, no? The nanotech in weapons was part of SOP which had various useful functions for one thing. Whether the retards in the actual America today would do it is another matter.

EDIT: Let's not forget the brilliance of MGS2 -- somehow the AI's through their l33t powers, manage to sell the US Congress and people on a hugely expensive multibillion dollar oil containment/cleanup facility, which really is a cover to hide Arsenal Gear....using the tanker which went down in NYC Harbor as a cover....

Which has just one tiny flaw -- the tanker was empty -- it was carrying the Metal Gear prototypes for the USMC, and hence there wouldn't be any oil, except for the diesel fuel for the engines....

So there's no oil slick bespoiling NYC Harbor. You can't bullshit that away, no matter how much you handwave and say ZOMG THE AI CONTROLS THE NEWS

There was one prototype, and nothing saying the other holds in the ship or the piping on the surface couldn't contain oil all the same. They never implied it was Valdez scale stuff.

Not that it matters, because getting Congress to pass pork is so hideously easy anyway. I'm sure the contractors that made the Big Shell facility would happily turn a blind eye to the lack of a massive spill and build away anyway. What's more outlandish to me is convincing the world to invade Iraq for WMDs. LOL, sorry, we meant the oil, but we suckered all of the US and UK and various other NATO governments into swallowing that bullshit. TOTAL IMPLAUSIBILITY!

Sidewinder · Post by **Sidewinder** » 2008-07-06 01:14pm

Vympel wrote:It would've been cool if instead of the Missouri they used the Admiral Lazarev. Just saying.

When I typed "Admiral Lazarev" into Wikipedia, I found an article on the Sverdlov class cruiser, which states that the Admiral Lazarev was scrapped in 1986, long before MGS4 begins. Besides, Kojima's decision to use the Missouri was probably due to her role in WWII (Japanese representatives signed the official instrument for surrender aboard that battleship).

Admiral Valdemar wrote:It's no different to the ideas of weapons with fingerprint locks, only these use nanoscale RFID for one thing.

Problem is, equipping an organization comparable to the US Army with such devices will be prohibitively expensive, to say nothing about doing this with EVERY SINGLE GUN IN THE WORLD.

Remind me again where super-realism entered into this thing when the antagonist is mind controlling a Russian gunslinger through a transplanted arm?

This states "Ocelot's possession by Liquid was an elaborate act, made possible through self-hypnosis and nanomachines, in order to trick the Patriot AIs into focusing their energies on battling Liquid." It may be incorrect (it's Wikipedia, after all), but IMHO, that doesn't excuse the idea that supercomputers can run the entire world THE SAME WAY human politicians do, wasting resources on THE SAME THINGS human politicians waste resources on (like congressional pork and pointless wars).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-06 02:55pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Because that's what the future of warfare is in the MGS-verse?

It's no different to the ideas of weapons with fingerprint locks, only these use nanoscale RFID for one thing.

Excuse me, but Police departments all over the US are highly resistant to the idea of relatively simple RFID/fingerprint/etc locks on their service pistols, due to reliability issues.

Military equipment is held to even more stringent standards, due to them having to operate in extreme conditions. There is no way nano-wank would be installed into military arms, ever.

Remind me again where super-realism entered into this thing when the antagonist is mind controlling a Russian gunslinger through a transplanted arm?

Actually, it's all part of a super quadruple agent ploy by Ocelot.

Kojima sure loves his quadruple agent triple crosses. Maybe he thinks it adds "drama".

The nanotech in weapons was part of SOP which had various useful functions for one thing.

I've seen the MGS4 cutscenes on Youtube, and Roy Campbell specifically mentions ALL the guns on earth falling silent....yes; because some African warlord is going to have nanoed guns

They never implied it was Valdez scale stuff.

Then why build such a huge complex? The local oil containment equipment that the NY Port Authority has is more than sufficient for a fuel spill from a sunken ship.

What's more outlandish to me is convincing the world to invade Iraq for WMDs.

You mean like how we just shipped 550 tons of Yellowcake out of Iraq recently that Saddam had his hands on?

CaptHawkeye · Post by **CaptHawkeye** » 2008-07-06 03:19pm

Shep wrote:I've seen the MGS4 cutscenes on Youtube, and Roy Campbell specifically mentions ALL the guns on earth falling silent....yes; because some African warlord is going to have nanoed guns Rolling Eyes

Oh it's gets better. Not only did they shut down all of the guns, but later, the characters have to use the formerly de-commissioned Missiouri because it's the only ship in the US navy that wasn't shut down by Ocelot. That's right, the system can actually be used to shut down every military VEHICLE in the world too. From ship to Humvee. Ocelot was able to pretty much "tell" helicopters to fall out of the sky in Europe. Clearly, Starfleet is the major supplier of military hardware for the MGS-verse world militaries.

You should watch the scene where Missouri effortlessly sails through one barrage of missiles after another. Despite Haven firing massive swarms of missiles at Mis, only a few of them hit her. Some of them even plummet into the sea 200+ meters away from Missouri. AWESOME.

DoomTrain · Post by **DoomTrain** » 2008-07-06 04:46pm

MKSheppard wrote: EDIT: Let's not forget the brilliance of MGS2 -- somehow the AI's through their l33t powers, manage to sell the US Congress and people on a hugely expensive multibillion dollar oil containment/cleanup facility, which really is a cover to hide Arsenal Gear....using the tanker which went down in NYC Harbor as a cover....

Which has just one tiny flaw -- the tanker was empty -- it was carrying the Metal Gear prototypes for the USMC, and hence there wouldn't be any oil, except for the diesel fuel for the engines....

So there's no oil slick bespoiling NYC Harbor. You can't bullshit that away, no matter how much you handwave and say ZOMG THE AI CONTROLS THE NEWS

They spell it out in one of the cutscenes. The tanker was empty save for RAY, but either Ocelot or Solidus (I can't remember which) mention right after the first tanker sank they sank another tanker right on top of it to aid the myth.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-06 09:58pm

DoomTrain wrote:They spell it out in one of the cutscenes. The tanker was empty save for RAY, but either Ocelot or Solidus (I can't remember which) mention right after the first tanker sank they sank another tanker right on top of it to aid the myth.

Yes, and nobody will notice a second tanker sinking, in one of the busiest harbors in the world

Jesus christ, was Kojima listening to 9/11 conspiracy truther theories when he came up with the plot for MGS2?