A serious discussion... ST/SW

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-10 11:15pm

I've looked over a couple of the previous threads here, and any of the threads where people "for" Trek come to defend Star Trek a flame war starts, with seemingly multiple people coming from one board to defend the first who arrived and after much slamming they give up. I would like to change that.

I would like to partake in a serious debate of ST vs SW; no slamming, bashing, flaming, or cursing. Intelligent and rational posts only; no "this is right cause it's my opinion". I've seen that on a lot of boards. Canon facts only. No novels, tech manuals (maybe to a limited extent) or assumptions of any kind. Any claim should be thoroughly backed by evidence. I know, that sounds stupid, but just try to argue your case using relevant facts and information we have available to us in this century.

I am not going to drag this into some huge yelling contest. I will be as calm and composed as humanly possible... okay, maybe I'll try to pick a better species, but you get the picture.

Actually let's start off this way; anything that's bugged you about Star Trek (whether it be an episode, a statement, Treknology, whatever) get it off your chest. I'll try to explain it, or give you the general Trekker thoughts on the subject, and we can go vice-versa.

I'll start it off with something simplistic. When Obi-Wan and Luke first meet Solo, he's boasting about the Millenium falcon. He says something about making a run in a certain number of parsecs (sorry, really too lazy to remember), using this as a time value. For those who don't know, a parsec is actually a unit of measurement, approximately 3.4 lightyears. If he was clocking his time, this statement is still correct, as he would've travelled the same distance no matter how long he took. Even if it took him 10 years it would be the same amount of parsecs. Thus this claim doesn't really make sense.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-10 11:22pm

Trek Repersentative, the quote your looking for by Han Solo I believe is "I made the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs.." or something to that jist.

To make a feasible argument about this, you'd have to know what the Kessel Run is.Kessel is a planet that holds the valuble spice Glittersim. Many smugglers come and try to get it off world, without being captured by custom forces. However, to make things difficult there is a cluster of black holes near Kessel called the "Maw." It is so close to Kessel that it stops ships attempting to leave Kessel from entering hyperspace, because it acts a "mass shadow" in hyperspace. In order to escape to space where they can engage hyperspace they need to first pass the Maw, and the closer you can get to it, the faster you can escape into hyperable space.

Han Solo's feat is supposedly remarkable as he got so close to the Maw, which in turn allowed him to escape.

I hope this answers your question, Trek Representative.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-08-10 11:33pm

Trek Representative wrote:I've looked over a couple of the previous threads here, and any of the threads where people "for" Trek come to defend Star Trek a flame war starts, with seemingly multiple people coming from one board to defend the first who arrived and after much slamming they give up. I would like to change that.

Hmm, seems harmless so far.

Trek Representative wrote: I would like to partake in a serious debate of ST vs SW; no slamming, bashing, flaming, or cursing. Intelligent and rational posts only; no "this is right cause it's my opinion". I've seen that on a lot of boards. Canon facts only. No novels, tech manuals (maybe to a limited extent) or assumptions

Ummm, LucasArts says the Star Wars novels are official. The Star Trek Tech Manuals are useless.

Trek Representative wrote: of any kind. Any claim should be thoroughly backed by evidence. I know, that sounds stupid, but just try to argue your case using relevant facts and information we have available to us in this century.

If we were to do this, then Star Trek loses by default. Star Trek would not come about from any civilization of today. It would involve taking humongous steps backward for every step taken forward. And no science in Star Trek makes any sense at all. It's not even consistent from episode to episode. However, we can come up with nice, consistent explanations for Star Wars technology. Star Wars makes much more sense as a future (ignoring the whole "A Long Time Ago" thing.)

Trek Representative wrote: Actually let's start off this way; anything that's bugged you about Star Trek (whether it be an episode, a statement, Treknology, whatever) get it off your chest. I'll try to explain it, or give you the general Trekker thoughts on the subject, and we can go vice-versa.

All of Trek beyond TOS sucks. That about sums it up.

Trek Representative wrote: I'll start it off with something simplistic. When Obi-Wan and Luke first meet Solo, he's boasting about the Millenium falcon. He says something about making a run in a certain number of parsecs (sorry, really too lazy to remember), using this as a time value. For those who don't know, a parsec is actually a unit of measurement, approximately 3.4 lightyears. If he was clocking his time, this statement is still correct, as he would've travelled the same distance no matter how long he took. Even if it took him 10 years it would be the same amount of parsecs. Thus this claim doesn't really make sense.

Well, by all descriptions, the Kessel Run involves passing the Maw. (Yes this in the novels, but the novels are part of the Star Wars universe, so deal.) The Maw is a cluster of black holes that tends to rip apart ships in hyperspace that get too close. So Han could very well be boasting that he knows the shortest path to complete the Kessel Run (by taking bigger risks and skirting closer to starsystems, even if we ignore the Maw from the EU it still works out and makes sense.)

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-08-10 11:47pm

Yes, the Kessel run is going close to black holes that make trips long, causing Imperials to catch you. You try to get close and cut your trip down, without being torn apart by the BHs.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-10 11:59pm

There's a thread in this forum which has a quote from Lucas himself, stating that the books are a parallel universe. Really that's just a polite way of saying that the novels aren't canon. No book truly is. Comments or SOME ideas can sometimes be used, but unless a comment has been authenticated in a later movie (Trek, episode), it has no canon value. Novels are simply opinions of fans, and opinions aren't canon. They explanations they provide often make a WHOLE lot of sense, and I've read a lot of Trek novels which offered insight, but none of them can be taken seriously. I'm sorry to be this direct, but (at least to me) it's straight forward.

As for Treknology, Star Trek science is essentially today's science with a few more elementary particles and a bit of a twist. A great deal of all science in Star Trek is based on currently unproven theoretical events and capabilities. FTL propulsion is one of them, which transends into SW. Transporters in their most primitive state are being tinkered with, and successful short ranged transports of particles have been done. If you don't believe me, I can direct you to many real life articles. Sonic showers are another advancement that we are coming closer and closer to, although some sort of paste (or soap) would likely have to be used in addition.

As for Trek being an impossibility, the only thing preventing such a reality is people unwilling to co-operate for everyone's benefit. Simply by combining the military budgets of every major power, we could cure diseases like cancer, aids, and even keep up with the common cold in a matter of a few years (if that long) as well as clean up the planet, solve hunger, poverty, and easily double our technological advancement from year to year. Granted, the timespan of Trek makes some elements unrealistic, but as it stands it is simply everyone's inability to trust and help one another that prevents this. Do you not believe that a WWIII killing a tenth of Earth's current population, with an alien intervention to help us learn more about the galaxy and ourselves, along with the ability to explore what we've been gazing at for decades, wouldn't bring at least the majority of the population together? Frankly, I'd be surprised if it didn't.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-08-11 12:05am

Boy, you havent been here that long... This may get ugly.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 12:16am

Okay, first of all, the novels are official. That means that they are considered canon, except when directly contradicted by the films. I was involved in that debate you refered to when GL talked about the parallel universe thing, and it became obvious after a few pages that the rabid trekkies had no point.

In the meantime, we already know how fast SW ships are. Darth Maul's ship made it to Tatooine in less than a day. It takes Federation ships decades to cross such a span (ref. Voyager). A great deal of ST technology has been disproven, or is just plain crap. Do you really think that if the world worked together we could make light out of ions?

SW ships have been seen to have vastly more firepower than ST ships (ref. ESB). Their ground vehicles are better (ref. ESB). They are clearly far more numerous than the Federation (ref. RotJ, TPM, AotC). Their shields are comparatively far more powerful. In fact, DarkStar's shifting arguments recently boosted the Falcon's shields to be several orders of magnitude stronger than the Enterprise E's (when he claimed that the asteroids were made of rock, in ESB). How can anyone, with or without official material, honestly think that the Federation could fight off the Empire? The Empire is faster, stronger ship-for-ship, better at fighting on the ground, more numerous, and better protected. That is all the evidence that rational people usually need to decide that the Empire could easily sweep the Federation.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 12:18am

I do not wish to start a firefight. All I would like is for a mannerly discussion to take place as the title of this forum suggests. Again, any insight (or even little quirks about anything) can be listed off in any order, and I will try to explain them, and again I hope the opposite to occur as well. I am only one man, but I will try to explain as much as possible.

Concerning the Kessel Run, it is a plausible idea, although such a large distance is that is taken by Solo still doesn't make sense. We're talking a distance of 387 trillion kilometres. For star hopping that seems like a bit much. And even if that includes hyperdrive use to make the final escape, it's a fairly high number. Could we just chalk that up to writer error?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-08-11 12:24am

Ok so I was reacting to your aguement about humanity become better and the such. We haven't changed over hundreds of thousands of years through war after war after war. What makes you think that a bunch of aliens being our saviors is going to change humans? By all rights, we'd milk the Vulcans dry and go on to improve our own tech with theirs.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 12:28am

Trek Representative wrote: Concerning the Kessel Run, it is a plausible idea, although such a large distance is that is taken by Solo still doesn't make sense. We're talking a distance of 387 trillion kilometres. For star hopping that seems like a bit much. And even if that includes hyperdrive use to make the final escape, it's a fairly high number. Could we just chalk that up to writer error?

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You told us that you would not accept speculation or assumptions on this thread, and then you went back and speculated almost instantly by saying that that distance is a bit much for "star hopping." Further, then you go back and assume that it might have been caused by writer error when you refused to allow us to bring in official material, citing the fact that it was merely SW fans giving their interpretation of the movies. Your arguments appear to be self-contradictory. I recognize your desire not to turn this into a flame-war, and I will abide by your rules. However, I think you should re-examine your position before you make any of these other assumptions, or just tell everyone that they are free to make assumptions. Either way, it makes everything more even.

BTW, are you also claiming that it was writer error when we saw Darth Maul's Infiltrator fly from Coruscant to the Outer Rim in less than a day? Because in order to make SW range smaller, you would need to prove that the Infiltrator did not make that journey, or was forced to stop several times to get fuel.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 12:32am

As for the ship debate, I'd personally like actual explanations than simple claims. I'm sorry, but looking up every single resource you listed is a bit much, and would take me a day or two at LEAST to get back to you (not that you'd hate that). And as for ground combat, very little has been seen. The main example was a DS9 episode by the name of "The Siege of AR-558", in where a poorly supplied and manned defense post goes up against a Jem'hadar "invasion" force. However, both were inadequately prepared for the meeting either way, even though the Jem'hadar had a slight advantage in numbers. If you wish I can explain the episode in great detail, and also explain as to how the Federation won.

Granted, by meer numbers alone the Empire could likely "sweep the Federation" as you put it. That I can easily conceed. But this part is interesting. Why did humans essentially "conquer" the SW galaxy? There are so many other alien races, but humans are always on top? Isn't that a little unrealistic. Yes, there are many similar instances in Trek, but often the Federation is helped by other alien Empires. Are you trying to tell me that the Empire was like the Borg for the first however many years, wiping out all other Empires that stood before it?

I meant for this to be a reference post in which someone informed of Star Trek events (me), converse with thte informed of SW (you) and find some grounds on which to explain certain subjects. And I truly hope this can still br kept.

I am browsing my way through the SD.net site, but it may take me a bit to get your perspective of the SW universe, since an informed warsie I am not.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 12:37am

Here's the problem from my perspective; the information offered on the Kessel run is not canon (at least in my view, and every other Trekker out their) and thus the only thing you can do with uncertain information is speculate. Yes, I did state otherwise before, and I apologize. I was referring to speculating about the abilities of canon and using it AS canon. Speculation can be allowed if it is simply used in a conjectural nature. Again, to me, the additional information on the Kessel run is non-canon.

I'm sorry for not clearly stating this issue of speculation prior to. My bad.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 12:41am

We have repeatedly seen in the movies that SW ships are able to vaporize small fighters (ref. ANH). Even assuming that the hulls of these ships were made out of simple iron, the firepower required to do so would be immense.

In AotC, we saw that the firepower of a single mine laid by a single starfighter was incredible--it appeared to be able to split a considerable amount of rock without any appreciable slowing or decreasing in the weapon's spread. The energy required to do that would have been immense. Note that the E-D in Pegasus, could not destroy a larger asteroid, except with hundreds of torpedoes. Even a few of those weapons we saw Slave 1 use would have been able to break apart the asteroid, which was really the E-D's goal in the matter. Thus, we can conclude that Slave 1 has similar, if not greater firepower, than the Enterprise-D. That is canon. It isn't quite that simple, but you should be able to get the idea. Thus, Slave 1 becomes about as powerful (at least) as smaller Federation ships. Other ships, if we assume that they are more powerful than Slave 1 (ie. Star Destroyers, Mon Calamari cruisers) would be similarly more powerful.

In ESB, we have seen an ISD vaporizing large asteroids. Because the asteroid density that the Falcon flew through was considerable more (and the asteroids bigger) than the ones that the ISD's were flying through, and since we know that the ISD's were attempting to follow the Falcon, we should be able to infer that the Star Destroyers were destroying those asteroids. No group of Federation ships would have been able to do this with anywhere near the ease of the ISD's. That should be enough to tell you that the ISD's are considerably more powerful than even the top-of-the-line Federation ships.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-08-11 12:42am

Why do you keep insisting the books arent canon? LucasArts made everything in the novels official, (even the godawful series with "Trioculous")
And you try tosay the books arent canon by stating some obscure quote that George Lucas may or may not have said?
Whoa, i do suggest you read the site.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 12:47am

SolidSnake wrote:Why do you keep insisting the books arent canon? LucasArts made everything in the novels official, (even the godawful series with "Trioculous")
And you try tosay the books arent canon by stating some obscure quote that George Lucas may or may not have said?
Whoa, i do suggest you read the site.

Naa, come on, Solid Snake, if we can demonstrate that only using canon, SW ships are more powerful (by a lot) than ST ships, maybe DarkStar will stop whining. And besides, I have no problems with someone starting a thread by saying that we are not using official material. As long as everyone knows the rules from the beginning, it should be fair.

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 12:52am

As for weapon yield, the main difference is that the Federation uses torps for that sort fo demolition. To vaporize such asteroids (and I'm not sure if they were thoroughly "vaporized") would indeed require quite a bit of power. Torpedoes have that power, but much of it is released into the surrounding space. To concentrate all of the energy released by a torpedo would be quite a task. However ISDs are designed for a massive amount of energy beam use, considering it's too bulky to manuever to the target.

As for the "official" novels, many ST novels are listed as official, including the tech manuals. But none of them are taken as canon, if only because they're not actually a part of a movie (or episode), and although references may be made to events of a movie/episode the other information that novels or tech manuals include are speculative, and only attempting to fill voids made because of the inability to cover all aspects of everything at once.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2002-08-11 12:56am

Master of Ossus wrote: Naa, come on, Solid Snake, if we can demonstrate that only using canon, SW ships are more powerful (by a lot) than ST ships, maybe DarkStar will stop whining. And besides, I have no problems with someone starting a thread by saying that we are not using official material. As long as everyone knows the rules from the beginning, it should be fair.

Ok, sounds cool

Trek Representative · Post by **Trek Representative** » 2002-08-11 12:57am

For now, I'm going to do some reading and come back on tomorrow. It's a bit of a task for me to debate against an entire message board, but I like a challange.

If we really want to get through this with canon but equally comparitive facts, we need to develop a basis to judge this on. Power values for ships, weapons, ship maneuverability, targetting accuracy, etcetera between the universes should do if you're only looking for ship comparisons. On other grounds we'll just have to use our imaginations...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 01:01am

Sigh. First of all, the torpedo demolition thing is attempting to take a bad situation for ST and make it worse. The fact that torpedoes blow something apart instead of vaporizing it is actually a better method for breaking up large asteroids than vaporizing them, as it is a more efficient expenditure of energy for destroying a large object. Think about this: today, when someone wants to demolish a building, do they vaporize it or merely break it up? To vaporize it would require a spectacular amount of energy. To break it apart would require less energy. The fact that the E-D required so many torpedoes to destroy the asteroid (which, presumably, does not mean vaporize but rather "break up"), we can assume that the yields on torpedoes is not nearly so great as the seismic charges used by Jango Fett. Thus, a SW starfighter-scale weapon is more powerful than the heaviest capital-ship weapons (until quantum torpedoes, possibly) used in ST.

Many ST novels are listed as official, but that is not the same thing as an official SW book. In SW, official means that they are considered truthful unless contradicted by the movies, scripts, radio-dramas or novels (collectively known as "canon"). In ST, official means nothing, other than that it was authorized by Paramount. It does not mean that they are remotely official. Incidentally, the TM is not the source you want to be going to if you want to say that ST is more powerful than SW, or if you want to have a remotely rational debate on the matter. The TM is directly contradicted in multiple areas by the shows and movies. It is not very accurate at all. If you want, we can use it for this thread, but I do not think that would be wise.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-11 01:25am

Incidentally, if we just go by the movies than the shield around part of Hoth would protect them from even multiple shots from the DS. Since the Rebels were able to put such a shield up in a matter of months, or possibly a year, we should assume that the Empire would be able to quickly and easily establish several invincible shields around their most important worlds, if, indeed, they have not already.

Mr. B · Post by **Mr. B** » 2002-08-11 02:33am

Master of Ossus wrote: Incidentally, if we just go by the movies than the shield around part of Hoth would protect them from even multiple shots from the DS. Since the Rebels were able to put such a shield up in a matter of months, or possibly a year, we should assume that the Empire would be able to quickly and easily establish several invincible shields around their most important worlds, if, indeed, they have not already.

Just wondering, but what are you going by here. It isn't making too much sense to me. Or maybe I have had too much to drink.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-11 05:35am

Just to clarify the Canon/Offical thing for Mr. Representative:

Lucasfilms has several times stated that the novels and expanded material were part of the SW universe. Lucas himself once admitted that he couldn't tell all the stories in his universe, and so has allowed other people to add to his saga. His most recent quote about considering the EU as a "parallel universe" applies ONLY to the official material that has been contradicted (to keep fans from saying, "Wait! This movie says X, but the book says Y!").

Paramount, on the other hand, has specifically stated that the novels and other expanded Trek material has no official status.

Not that I'm trying to force you to keep from looking at canon material only, of course. Just wanna make sure you understand both sides of the issue.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-08-11 06:44am

An important thing to remember, Trek Representative, is that unlike ST material, SW material is *scrutinized* by Lucasfilm. If the Lucasfilm reps don't like something in the EU material- it gets cut or edited- some of the broader issues are directly overseen by George Lucas.

Also, it is not just a one-way street. Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire introduced the capital of the Old Republic/ Empire/ New Republic as Coruscant. George Lucas used this name in the prequel trilogy. Also, the Star Wars Incredible Cross Sections (released 1998) has a cross-section of Boba Fett's vessel the Slave I. It is exactly the same as it appeared in Attack of the Clones- same midship guns, flip out torpedo launchers etc. (also more powerful than the Enterprise-D's photons IIRC). In other words, the SW:ICS was taken into account by George Lucas himself when he was creating the asteroid scene in Attack of the Clones.

Paramount has no such policy.

Of course, if you exlcude Star Wars EU material the Empire gets weaker in terms of less super weapons (some Star Wars writers simply suck- this is why there's so many superweapons- Kevin J Anderson is the worst offender) but there's really no other effect. There's plenty of material in the actual films to conclusively show that the Empire could easily sweep aside the Federation.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-08-11 08:04am

Aren't most of the things that Trek Rep. brings up already answered in the site? Has Trek Rep. even read the site?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-08-11 08:04am

There's a thread in this forum which has a quote from Lucas himself, stating that the books are a parallel universe. Really that's just a polite way of saying that the novels aren't canon. No book truly is. Comments or SOME ideas can sometimes be used, but unless a comment has been authenticated in a later movie (Trek, episode), it has no canon value. Novels are simply opinions of fans, and opinions aren't canon. They explanations they provide often make a WHOLE lot of sense, and I've read a lot of Trek novels which offered insight, but none of them can be taken seriously. I'm sorry to be this direct, but (at least to me) it's straight forward.

-----

Personally I think this is confusing the "Infinities" with the novels. Lucas has also stated that the novels take place in the time between the movies, and on a few accounts used EU material (Outrider, Coruscant). In case you didn't notice, novels aren't written by the fans. We would have written them differently, and probably not worse.

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A serious discussion... ST/SW

A serious discussion... ST/SW

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