South Carolina Christians Scream "PREJUDICE!!!"

[Ziggy Stardust]

From here.

COLUMBIA, South Carolina (CNN) -- Unless a federal court intervenes, South Carolina drivers may soon be able to profess their Christian faith with a state-issued license plate.

South Carolina's plate is based on a design by Florida, which was rejected by the state.

The state plans to issue plates featuring a Christian cross and the words "I Believe," but a group advocating the separation of church and state says that goes too far.

A similar design had been considered by Florida's lawmakers, but it was rejected there because of concerns over separation of church and state.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which includes Christian, Jewish and Hindu clergy, filed a federal lawsuit last month. The group contends that the plates violate the U.S. Constitution's prohibition against government favoring one religion over another religion or non-religion.

South Carolina became the first state to offer Christian car tags last month, when Gov. Mark Sanford allowed the bill to become law without his signature. The state legislature had passed it unanimously.

"I think it allows people of faith to profess that they believe in a higher calling, they believe in God," said Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer.

Bauer has offered to personally pay a $4,000 deposit required for the Department of Motor Vehicles to begin producing the plates. The fee would be returned to him later.

The Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said Bauer's willingness to pay the deposit "more deeply confirms this is a government-sponsored program."

"I don't believe that these license plates will ever be on any car in South Carolina, because I think our Constitutional claim is so strong," Lynn said.

South Carolina's legislature has not made a similar specialty plate available for any other faith, he said.

While individuals can ask the DMV to print plates for other faiths -- for a $4,000 fee -- the request would be subject to significant limits and rules not imposed for the Christian plate. Other tags could feature a religious symbol -- such as the Star of David -- but no words would be allowed.

The Christian plate will include the words "I Believe" and a bright-yellow cross on a multicolored stained glass church window.

Lynn's group said in a news release "that other religions will not be able to get similar license plates expressing differing viewpoints, nor can a comparable 'I Don't Believe' license plate be issued.

"The state has made believers of non-Christian faiths feel that they are second-class citizens," Lynn said. "Under our Constitution, that's impermissible."

Bauer said allowing Christians to have a specialty license plate is freedom of speech. He said those who oppose are prejudiced against Christians.

"We're not going to back down," Bauer said. "We're going to fight for a change. I'm tired of seeing Christians back down in fear of a lawsuit."

Bauer also said he is not afraid of a personal political backlash against him.

"If I were never to get elected or serve in another capacity because I pronounce my faith as a Christian, I don't have a problem with that," Bauer said

OH NOES! THE CHRISTIANS ARE BEING PERSECUTED AGAIN!!

[General Zod]

Is there any particular reason these blowhards need vanity plates just to express their religiosity that can't be accomplished by the usual inane bumper sticker?

[Rahvin]

OH NOES! THE CHRISTIANS ARE BEING PERSECUTED AGAIN!!

Why is it that "discrimination against Christians" always takes the form of restricting Christians' ability to discriminate against everyone else?

Here's a hint, fundies: it's not an illegal act of discrimination to prevent illegal acts of discrimination.

[Darth Wong]

That attitude comes from the horribly vague wording of the establishment clause, which is often misinterpreted to mean that religious public officials can freely use their positions to express their beliefs or discriminate against others.

I guess Thomas Jefferson didn't have enough experience with lawyers.

[CJvR]

Remove the cross and it should be OK, provided you supply the ateists with a "I don't belive" option.

[Darth Wong]

Remove the cross and it should be OK, provided you supply the ateists with a "I don't belive" option.

Yeah, but the cross is the whole point. If you take away the cross, then the words "I believe" might refer to the Carolina Panthers. The backers of this idea would never accept that.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Remove the cross and it should be OK, provided you supply the ateists with a "I don't belive" option.

Agreed. Heck let's just make it wear you can submit your own design!

[Master of Ossus]

Remove the cross and it should be OK, provided you supply the ateists with a "I don't belive" option.

Read the article, though. For $4,000, they'll put a symbol on a license plate, but no one's allowed to put words on license plates from people of other faiths. It's the wording that shows preferential treatment, actually.

[Gil Hamilton]

Read the article, though. For $4,000, they'll put a symbol on a license plate, but no one's allowed to put words on license plates from people of other faiths. It's the wording that shows preferential treatment, actually.

Isn't that an issue? I'm pretty sure they aren't making people pay 4000 dollars for the Christian license plate. The ones talked about in the article are normal specialty plates. At best there will be a 70 dollar fee tacked on like most specialty plates. Not to mention the article specifically states they have a different standard of rules for the other religious plates, in addition to the 4000 dollar fee to make the individualized ones.

[NeoGoomba]

Yeah, but the cross is the whole point. If you take away the cross, then the words "I believe" might refer to the Carolina Panthers. The backers of this idea would never accept that.

It takes WAAAAY more faith than your typical fundie to believe in the Panthers, but I digress

[Invictus ChiKen]

It takes WAAAAY more faith than your typical fundie to believe in the Panthers, but I digress

I wasn't gonna say anything but your right!

The Panthers Mike!?

I'm amazed I haven't heard of this story before now given I live here and this kind of thing tends to be front page news...

[General Zod]

It takes WAAAAY more faith than your typical fundie to believe in the Panthers, but I digress

I wasn't gonna say anything but your right!

The Panthers Mike!?

I'd say it takes significantly less faith to believe in the Panthers. You can just buy a ticket and go see them, but you need to die to see God according to most major religions

[American Infidel]

Is there any particular reason these blowhards need vanity plates just to express their religiosity that can't be accomplished by the usual inane bumper sticker?

Free people don't need a reason to express themselves with words and symbols.
This would be undiscriminatory if other faiths were allowed to have wording on thier plates. I say let them, after somebody pays the deposit.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Is there any particular reason these blowhards need vanity plates just to express their religiosity that can't be accomplished by the usual inane bumper sticker?

Free people don't need a reason to express themselves with words and symbols.
This would be undiscriminatory if other faiths were allowed to have wording on thier plates. I say let them, after somebody pays the deposit.

I believe the argument is that the license plate is produced and sanctioned by the government--i.e., it falls within establish clause.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Is there any particular reason these blowhards need vanity plates just to express their religiosity that can't be accomplished by the usual inane bumper sticker?

Free people don't need a reason to express themselves with words and symbols.
This would be undiscriminatory if other faiths were allowed to have wording on thier plates. I say let them, after somebody pays the deposit.

I believe the argument is that the license plate is produced and sanctioned by the government--i.e., it falls within establish clause.

(I'm actually far more bothered by this than statues of the Ten Commandments in courthouses--whereas the Ten Commandments have historical value apart from their religious status, such license plates as this do not).

[American Infidel]

Free people don't need a reason to express themselves with words and symbols.
This would be undiscriminatory if other faiths were allowed to have wording on thier plates. I say let them, after somebody pays the deposit.

I believe the argument is that the license plate is produced and sanctioned by the government--i.e., it falls within establish clause.

(I'm actually far more bothered by this than statues of the Ten Commandments in courthouses--whereas the Ten Commandments have historical value apart from their religious status, such license plates as this do not).

To counter; I would argue that because the individual citizens of South Carolina have to pay for the plates and they want it customized with this message, it is thier speech and not that of the state. Not a violation of the establishment clause.

The prohibition of other faiths having wording on plates would be, I believe.

[Patrick Degan]

Free people don't need a reason to express themselves with words and symbols.
This would be undiscriminatory if other faiths were allowed to have wording on thier plates. I say let them, after somebody pays the deposit.

I believe the argument is that the license plate is produced and sanctioned by the government--i.e., it falls within establish clause.

(I'm actually far more bothered by this than statues of the Ten Commandments in courthouses--whereas the Ten Commandments have historical value apart from their religious status, such license plates as this do not).

To counter; I would argue that because the individual citizens of South Carolina have to pay for the plates and they want it customized with this message, it is thier speech and not that of the state. Not a violation of the establishment clause.

The plates are still manufactured by the state, and a state authority offering a set of religious vanity plates or a special service for religious messages on a license plate constitutes state sponsorship of religion over non-religion. So yes it does violate the Establishment Clause.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Another good reason it's probably a violation of the Establishment Clause is that people want it at all--you could just as easily put a bumper sticker on the car. Always smell a rat when someone wants to do something that's completely unnecessary to get the point across; they surely have an ulterior motive.

[Knife]

To counter; I would argue that because the individual citizens of South Carolina have to pay for the plates and they want it customized with this message, it is thier speech and not that of the state. Not a violation of the establishment clause.

The prohibition of other faiths having wording on plates would be, I believe.

Don't see why that matters, it is a goverment licence plate not a personal billboard. It would be just as inappropriate to put a cross on the drivers licence for a fee, but you won't see that because then the christians can't use a drivers licence to advocate their faith since it's in their wallet.

[Gandalf]

To counter; I would argue that because the individual citizens of South Carolina have to pay for the plates and they want it customized with this message, it is thier speech and not that of the state. Not a violation of the establishment clause.

The prohibition of other faiths having wording on plates would be, I believe.

Does this just apply to religious stuff, or could one get something else there too?

[American Infidel]

I believe the argument is that the license plate is produced and sanctioned by the government--i.e., it falls within establish clause.

(I'm actually far more bothered by this than statues of the Ten Commandments in courthouses--whereas the Ten Commandments have historical value apart from their religious status, such license plates as this do not).

To counter; I would argue that because the individual citizens of South Carolina have to pay for the plates and they want it customized with this message, it is thier speech and not that of the state. Not a violation of the establishment clause.

The plates are still manufactured by the state, and a state authority offering a set of religious vanity plates or a special service for religious messages on a license plate constitutes state sponsorship of religion over non-religion. So yes it does violate the Establishment Clause.

I disagree.
It is a consumer choice option that people can take or leave. As such, it isn't a sponsorship of religion over non-religion. The fact that the state made the plate doesn't matter because the state didn't mandate that all plates have this message on it.

[American Infidel]

Another good reason it's probably a violation of the Establishment Clause is that people want it at all--you could just as easily put a bumper sticker on the car. Always smell a rat when someone wants to do something that's completely unnecessary to get the point across; they surely have an ulterior motive.

Stickers will wear out with time and they make the car look like crap. I assume they could damage the value of the vehicle also.

[General Zod]

To counter; I would argue that because the individual citizens of South Carolina have to pay for the plates and they want it customized with this message, it is thier speech and not that of the state. Not a violation of the establishment clause.

The prohibition of other faiths having wording on plates would be, I believe.

Freedom of speech does not apply to government licenses and certificates. Since when are vanity plates anything more than a "privilege"? Also, you must not have bothered actually reading the article.

While individuals can ask the DMV to print plates for other faiths -- for a $4,000 fee -- the request would be subject to significant limits and rules not imposed for the Christian plate. Other tags could feature a religious symbol -- such as the Star of David -- but no words would be allowed.

[American Infidel]

You must not have read my response that you quoted. Why am I not surprised?

While individuals can ask the DMV to print plates for other faiths -- for a $4,000 fee -- the request would be subject to significant limits and rules not imposed for the Christian plate. Other tags could feature a religious symbol -- such as the Star of David -- but no words would be allowed.

[/quote]

The prohibition of other faiths having wording on plates would be, I believe.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Another good reason it's probably a violation of the Establishment Clause is that people want it at all--you could just as easily put a bumper sticker on the car. Always smell a rat when someone wants to do something that's completely unnecessary to get the point across; they surely have an ulterior motive.

Stickers will wear out with time and they make the car look like crap. I assume they could damage the value of the vehicle also.

What kind of car do you drive that a bumper stick will damage the paint job? Some kind of customized Bentley? I mean, driving through a sandy area would do far more abrasion damage to the car right there, so I guess you'd keep it in your garage all the time anyway. And the things cost a buck, they're easily replaceable.