What the hell happened to RTD? (Who spoilers for S1-4)

[Thanas]

Okay, sincere question. I was watching Seasons 1 and 2 of Dr. Who on DVD again, the episodes "Rose", "The End of the world", "Tooth and Claw", "Army of Ghosts/Doomsday" to be precise. Then, just because I am a masochist, I watched parts of Season 3 and 4, namely "Gridlock", the S3 finale, "Partners in Crime" and "Turn left". The insult that is the S4 finale is also still fresh and no matter how I try to, it is immensely hard to forget.


All episodes were written by Russell T. Davies. But the drop in quality is so severe that I thought they might have well been written by a different writer.

Especially comparing the season 1 premiere "Rose" to the Season 4 primer "Partners in crime". Where the Season 1 premier had character exposition/evolution, Season 4 had next to none. Season 1 had genuine humour (cat trap, the dialogue etc), Season 4 had bad slapstick (the pantomine. What suck.). Season 1 had subtlety, Season 4 beats you over the head with tired clichees.

Season 4 actually went against several established principles for the Doctor, principles the Doctor himself proclaimed in episodes written by RTD ("No second chances. I'm that kind of a man" vs. trying to save Davros; ""Do not mess with Time" vs. "Hey, ripple here, ripple there, who cares. Oh, a pocket universe, what fun."; Not leaving you behind" vs. "Here's a version of me, now go and be merry together"; Heroic doctor with humour vs. emo bitch) I could go on, but you get the point.


So yeah, what happened to RTD to turn him from a writer who could invent and write decent characters into a bad fanfiction author?

[Gandalf]

I imagine that after hearing about how good his work was in assorted episodes, he thought people would follow him "out there".

[Gustav32Vasa]

Nothing, since I consider Journey's End one of his best episodes and one of the best episode of Doctor Who ever.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Nothing, since I consider Journey's End one of his best episodes and one of the best episode of Doctor Who ever.

That is either brilliant sarcasm, or brilliant idiocy.

I really don't see S3 being as bad as many make out. Sure, it had less excellent episodes than the first two seasons, but it had a great finale up until the final act, with "Utopia" being one of my favourite episodes. There was also great input by Moffat. The filler episodes were somewhat lacking, especially the Dalek two parter, though I can't say it was as below par as this season just gone, which is frankly more miss than hit.

Ironically, one of the best episodes in S4 was RTD's "Midnight" showing he can do great drama led stories that don't fall into the abyss of absurdity or even need huge set-pieces.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Ironically, one of the best episodes in S4 was RTD's "Midnight" showing he can do great drama led stories that don't fall into the abyss of absurdity or even need huge set-pieces.

It was a OK episode but I didnt find it that good.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The bar is lowered in S4, so what is excellent there may only be good contrasted with, say, "The Empty Child" or "Doomsday".

[Atavarius]

My guess is that he got too wrapped up in the "Man who saved Doctor Who" title a bunch of people tossed on him. This led him into going more and more "out there" as Gandalf puts it.

[Straha]

The same thing that happened to George Lucas. RTD is Producer, Script Editor and Writer. In the first seasons he was very careful to make sure all of his ideas made sense and were enjoyable to a wider audience. But overtime he had bad ideas, but unlike other writers he wasn't submitting his ideas to other writers. So ideas that would be laughed out of his office if other people submitted it ("So, the Doctor regenerates but doesn't. And he turns Donna into the Doctor too. Along with another Doctor. No, not Eccelston, another copy of Tennant.") didn't go through vetting and made their way into production.

It's a problem which could become endemic to Doctor Who unless that position is broken up between different people.

[Stark]

By being in charge of all those different elements, he was also invested in each of them; he's not just full of himself, but full of his own ideas and their merit. Thus, the Brady Bunch finale, shoehorning in every one of his 'pet' characters and themes into one story, regardless of what this does to narrative or pacing. You can see this very obviously in interviews; in the first few years he was in earnest about DW, but later simply became in earnest about his own ideas (like 'guns r bad' and 'no you can't kill anyone' and 'wow the fans love Davros').

[Setzer]

I think Ronald D. Moore said that to get a good script, you have to have someone willing to disagree with you. Was RTD listening to his other writers, or his fans?

[Stark]

I think Ronald D. Moore said that to get a good script, you have to have someone willing to disagree with you. Was RTD listening to his other writers, or his fans?

I think it's notable that early on he had a quite open, 'wait-and-see' approach (even going to far as to cut out alien planets, etc, to not throw out too much crazy shit at the audience at the start of a revival). After the show became obviously successful, this attitude became weaker or non-existent. I don't think he's a bad writer, but he's a bad producer (ie, hiring Helen Idiot not once but twice, hiring Agyeman because he liked her, etc) and as he became more confident he let too much of himself into the show.

[Stormbringer]

So yeah, what happened to RTD to turn him from a writer who could invent and write decent characters into a bad fanfiction author?

The fact that he's a soap opera-ish writer with more than a little bit of wood for the Doctor?

That may be a bit glib of a summation but I think it's essentially the problem. He's got a fair amount of skill as a writer and maybe as a show runner as well. But when he was doing both he was at his worse. It seems there's a lot of bleed over in his personal attitudes about the characters onto the characters, whether it made sense or not. One of the things that got aggravating was the want to fuck him or hate him attitude every character had with The Doctor. It got old, really old. As time went on and the risk became success, he simply let the show become too much his playground with out really stopping to get good feedback on his stories and characters.

In short, the show some where about that time went from the sum of the strengths to the sum of the weaknesses.

Of course, some of this rant might be bleeding over from the bottomless chasm of suck that is Torchwood.

[Thanas]

The same thing that happened to George Lucas. RTD is Producer, Script Editor and Writer. In the first seasons he was very careful to make sure all of his ideas made sense and were enjoyable to a wider audience. But overtime he had bad ideas, but unlike other writers he wasn't submitting his ideas to other writers. So ideas that would be laughed out of his office if other people submitted it ("So, the Doctor regenerates but doesn't. And he turns Donna into the Doctor too. Along with another Doctor. No, not Eccelston, another copy of Tennant.") didn't go through vetting and made their way into production.

It's a problem which could become endemic to Doctor Who unless that position is broken up between different people.

Thanks...that makes perfect sense. Yet I kinda have to question the theory a bit here - for example, we know that Steven Moffat used to look over RTDs scripts, like in "The Doctors Daughter". So I cannot imagine noone told him that his ideas were bad and we know that Moffat persuaded him to change at least one episode ending. So what happened? Did he bulldoze the opposition or did noone simply care enough to tell him that his ideas were bullshit?

By being in charge of all those different elements, he was also invested in each of them; he's not just full of himself, but full of his own ideas and their merit. Thus, the Brady Bunch finale, shoehorning in every one of his 'pet' characters and themes into one story, regardless of what this does to narrative or pacing. You can see this very obviously in interviews; in the first few years he was in earnest about DW, but later simply became in earnest about his own ideas (like 'guns r bad' and 'no you can't kill anyone' and 'wow the fans love Davros').

Thanks. I especially agree with the narrative and pacing in the finale - either you put the focus on the Daleks/Davros and the threat, or on Donna and her "destiny" or on the 4th year Rose arc. Not all of it and then give neither story enough time to unravel and make a gigantic fuckup of it.

I also wonder why there was no feedback from the people involved in the process. Billie Piper for example has stated that she was unhappy with her character's role in the finale. I kinda wonder why no other actor ever said something like that before. I mean, I wonder why noone went "This is bs" after reading the script beforehand.

[Stormbringer]

Thanks...that makes perfect sense. Yet I kinda have to question the theory a bit here - for example, we know that Steven Moffat used to look over RTDs scripts, like in "The Doctors Daughter". So I cannot imagine noone told him that his ideas were bad and we know that Moffat persuaded him to change at least one episode ending. So what happened? Did he bulldoze the opposition or did noone simply care enough to tell him that his ideas were bullshit?

For one thing, Davies didn't write "The Doctor's Daughter" so he couldn't possibly have gotten direct feedback on it.

Secondly, he is responsible for the team on Doctor Who (and the spin-offs) which means by and large his people. There probably were people that disagreed or would have done things differently but they're not necessarily in a position to offer feedback either on time or with enough vehemence to change things. I suspect it's a combination of them agreeing, after all Davies isn't the only one that produced crappy episodes, and no one that might have being in a position to do so.

I mean, come on, look at Torchwood which is far and away worse. How many people are telling him to "fix it, fix it, fix it now!" and how many are willing to go on churning out crap?

[Thanas]

For one thing, Davies didn't write "The Doctor's Daughter" so he couldn't possibly have gotten direct feedback on it.

Actually, Davies used to, by his own words, "correct" every submitted script and did in fact change that bit due to Moffat.

I mean, come on, look at Torchwood which is far and away worse. How many people are telling him to "fix it, fix it, fix it now!" and how many are willing to go on churning out crap?

Torchwood has always been crap, so the drop in quality would not be noticeable. RTD has nothing to do with Torchwood really. I mean, I get where you are coming from but Who was actually good before it went down the gutter.

[Patrick Degan]

Nothing, since I consider Journey's End one of his best episodes and one of the best episode of Doctor Who ever.

Don't worry. I'm sure with rest and care, you will eventually be able to leave the asylum in about five years.

[Big Orange]

"Journey's End" was overblown hokum, but I wouldn't say it was quite as terrible as most here make it out to be and I was reasonably entertained for the most part, though I'm not surprised it would be RTD going up his own backside amid massive firework explosions while having said arse plugged into a recycled plot/character randomiser machine, but I was certainly not bored.

However most of Season Four to me was not noticebly worse than either S2 and S3, while RTD's writing output has always been variable from the sublime to the trite (often at the same time) since day one, with "Midnight" and "Turn Left" being quite polished (as was "The End of the World" and "Utopia"). Also "Voyage of the Damned" was very visual, Russell T. Davies is good at etching out visual set pieces (but not so great at etching out the underlining narrative mechanics beneath said colourful visuals and imaginative scenery much of the time, unlike Steven Moffat).

But Steven Moffat is taking over and injecting new blood into NuWho when Russell T. Davis is running out of ideas for his grand finals and the formula established over three years ago is getting stale (however Moffat's recent two parter felt like a compilation of his earlier stories, but I trust he can branch off from his low bodycount faux gothic chillers). I heard the writer of "Dalek" (personal fave of S1) and comic book writer, Gaiman, are getting hired so some more solid talent to look forward to.

What happened to Donna Noble was certainly not bad fanfiction, with Tennant, Tate and of course Cribbins fully selling it for me, opening up the possibilty of future restoration in spite of such disheartening disappointment, while the hand in the jar is finally dispensed into a duplicate Doctor who we're bound not to see the last of.

[Straha]

I think Ronald D. Moore said that to get a good script, you have to have someone willing to disagree with you. Was RTD listening to his other writers, or his fans?

Himself. He has good ideas and then implements them horribly. Take for instance the "Someone's been changing Donna to make her the perfect companion" ridiculous plot point that popped up in Journey's End. It makes no sense when you think about it. A. Donna's not the perfect companion, she's a shrill whiny bitch who couldn't stand adventure when we first saw her, and when she decided she did want to go along for the ride did the most undoctor like thing possible and brought along her wardrobe. B. Who's changing her? The Donna-Doctor? The Doctor? Who? And I'll leave it at that. But the original idea for the "Someone's been changing you since the beginning to make you the perfect companion" was a Ninth Doctor script for Rose where there was going to be an episode dedicated to it. And it makes much more sense there. Except the script was dropped because they didn't have the budget for it, and I'd like to think because it makes the Doctor out to be a creep. But the idea stuck around in his head, and showed up now because it could.

You can see alot of ideas worked like this: The Doctor has a female companion who starts to love the Doctor. The Toclafane. Season keywords. Staying on Earth. "Epic" threats to the Earth. Reset buttons. Etc. etc. etc.

Thanks...that makes perfect sense. Yet I kinda have to question the theory a bit here - for example, we know that Steven Moffat used to look over RTDs scripts, like in "The Doctors Daughter". So I cannot imagine noone told him that his ideas were bad and we know that Moffat persuaded him to change at least one episode ending. So what happened? Did he bulldoze the opposition or did noone simply care enough to tell him that his ideas were bullshit?

Like people already pointed out, The Doctor's Daughter isn't his own script. There's a marked difference between saying "Hey, Boss, this guy's script suggestion is a load of bollocks and could use a tweak at the end." and "Hey, Boss, your script if a load of bollocks and could use a couple tweaks through out." and "Hey, Boss, your script is a load of bollocks. Period. Really, just burn it and start afresh. I wont humiliate you by mentioning that you wrote this if you wont humiliate me by saying I read it." It's hard to criticize your boss. Especially when he's both the editor and the producer and so has no 'equal' to sit him down and set him straight. And it's even worse when he doesn't even need to submit his own ideas to outside criticism because your boss is his own editor and producer.

[NecronLord]

Stratha, I'm pretty sure, even in Journey's End, it wasn't claimed that she was perfect in any way. Some strange force was manipulating them toward meeting, it wasn't making her likeable (though I far preffer Donna to Rose or Martha, myself) or any such balderdash.

[Dark Hellion]

Part of the problem is just how difficult it is to maintain a hold on "serious" and "emotional" and not let it slip into the realm of "seriously emo". We have a lot of very intelligent posters on this board who will break into melodrama about their pet subjects and RTD started to lack the oversight to determine between drama and melodrama. Season 1 of NuWho had a Doctor who was lonely, very humanized and haunted by the past (which also added a bit of irony). He was honestly exited about having a companion to get him out of the stupor. The second doctor kind of had this, but slowly started not needing the companion as friend to help with his existential loneliness, but as a crutch to provide someone to get sad about getting hurt when he was having a kooky adventure. While I enjoy the kookiness of Tenants doctor, the script writing has cheapened the companions into giant roving plot points, and the kookiness has gotten a bit too much. A bit more actual GrimDark could actually do some good for Who. The threat that existed in the first season just got completely blown away. We always know that the doctor will pull something outta his ass at the last minute to save the day, but I hate how Seasons 3 and 4 make you rely on this.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Indeed, although much as I'd have liked season three to end with the Master being defeated and retconning what happened being cast aside, I doubt you'd be able to have normal contemporary Earth stories any more after the fact. It's not like having Earth transformed over a year into a forward base for an army to take apart the rest of the universe by a megalomaniac for a war that was already over is going to be easily forgotten. Least "Doomsday" had no real lasting damage to the world after the Cybers and Daleks got sucked into the void after their MAD.

[Dahak]

I didn't perceive any significant drop in quality over the four seasons. All had some high points and their lows.
It's fun, it's silly, and it's entertaining. It's not supposed to be perfect drama, it should entertain. And in my opinon they did so very well.

For me, the first season is not the best one of them as some make it out to be. I never really liked Rose and I like Tennant's Doctor more.

And so people can make fun of me even more, The "Jesus-Doctor"-finale was one of my favourite episodes, and this season my favourite was "The Unicorn and the Wasp".

[Thanas]

^Sorry Dahak, but noone could make more fun of you than you did with your last post yourself.

[Imperial Overlord]

I can't tell if Dahak's being serious or sarcastic.

[Dahak]

I can't tell if Dahak's being serious or sarcastic.

Serious, I'm afraid