Doctor Who S30E13: Journey's End [Spoilers]

[NecronLord]

Seriously though. They've actually created a villain who actually deserves to go to hell, what with having just committed a literally infinite number of attempted murders. For once, they could have put the cheap no-kill morality away and just shot him.

The Family of Blood? They killed a small town and upset the Doctor! Horrible cruel and unusual punishments for them!

The Master? Murdered millions, maybe billions. "I forgive you."

Just for once, I'd like to see an actual uber-villain get the Family of Blood treatment, instead of let off with a pat on the back, and conviniently killed by plot because the Doctor's too cowardly to judge anyone... unless they make him upset by ruining his chance at happiness or some nonsense.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Master? Murdered millions, maybe billions. "I forgive you."

He also obliterated one third of the universe.

[NecronLord]

The Master? Murdered millions, maybe billions. "I forgive you."

He also obliterated one third of the universe.

To be entirely fair to him, he didn't intend to. Manslaughter-Omnicide, as opposed to deliberate omnicide like Davros' effort here.

[Revy]

I was shocked that the Doctor willingly killed over 6000 Londoners in Age of Steel - granted they were all Cybermen, but he had witnessed first hand that they were still people. Maybe he saw it as a mercy killing, but even so he didn't even seem to hesitate. Yet he couldn't bring himself to use the Delta Wave weapon against the Dalek Emperor and his armada in Parting of the Ways, even though it spelt certain death for himself and the entire human race.

Seriously, the Doctor is one conflicted guy. Regenerating into completely different people probably contributes to that, I suspect.

^I don't think Dalek Caan would have absorbed the Heart of the TARDIS. For one, if he did he could have wiped the Daleks from existence with the wave of a tentacle, just as Rose did. He wouldn't need to orchestrate events for the Doctor to defeat them, he'd have the power to kill them outright and maybe even undo the damage they caused throughout history. Also, as I understood it, the TARDIS is alive and telepathically connects with people. It only fed its energy into Rose because it sensed, telepathically, that she wanted to save the Doctor and set things right, unlike that Slitheen alien that looked into the heart. It sensed telepathically that what she wanted was to start over, and it gave her that chance. But would the TARDIS, looking into the mind of a Dalek, let one absorb its power? What would the TARDIS actually do? Would it sense a Daleks desire to kill everything and grant that wish? Or is the TARDIS arbitrary, and would decide that it wasn’t going to help a Dalek out, and promptly reduce it to ash? I doubt we'll ever find out, but I'd like to know all the same.

I too also wondered about the Bad Wolf signs at the end of Turn Left. At least with Rose we knew that she was the cause of them, and they served a purpose. But who the hell created the Bad Wolf signs this time? We never find out. Because they turned up, I kept predicting to everyone that someone must end up doing another Rose/BadWolf and seeding the signs that the Doctor sees in Turn Left, but I was wrong, that never happened (and admittedly they're unlikely to use the same plot element twice). It's still unexplained.

[Patrick Degan]

Seriously though. They've actually created a villain who actually deserves to go to hell, what with having just committed a literally infinite number of attempted murders. For once, they could have put the cheap no-kill morality away and just shot him.

The Family of Blood? They killed a small town and upset the Doctor! Horrible cruel and unusual punishments for them!

The Master? Murdered millions, maybe billions. "I forgive you."

Just for once, I'd like to see an actual uber-villain get the Family of Blood treatment, instead of let off with a pat on the back, and conviniently killed by plot because the Doctor's too cowardly to judge anyone... unless they make him upset by ruining his chance at happiness or some nonsense.

That was a real WTF moment for me watching this travesty. Especially recalling how the Doctor once gloated over the burning of Skaro and the imminent (seeming) destruction of Davros in "Rememberance Of The Daleks":

Do not do this, I beg of you!

NOTHING CAN STOP IT NOW. Goodbye, Davros. It hasn't been pleasant.

No, the one you'd think the Doctor would try to save was Caan. Offering Davros a hand instead of marshmallows on a stick made no sense at all.

[El Moose Monstero]

As I said, it doesn't work the episode as is - but I also found Caan's realisation of the Dalek evil being a bit hard to swallow. In a finale episode, I might have had the message that Caan got from his experience with the Doctor was that there was no way for the Daleks to win the time war, as the viewpoint he actually stressed was more akin to Dalek Sec, but Caan, as we saw in Daleks in Manhattan, didn't agree.

Instead of trying to destroy the daleks, he could have instead gone back to try to avert the time war, leading to some sort of uneasy balance of power. Hell, although it would have been a reset episode, you could have had the Doctor forced to make another judgement call - the lives of the future universe in which the Daleks and the Time Lords skirt around each other, trying not to enter the war but the lesser beings would suffer, or the lives of the Time Lords for the destruction of the Daleks in forcing the Time War to occur and ultimately killing his own kind twice.

But I agree that the telepathic Tardis wouldn't really work with the idea and the whole idea is probably BS anyway.

--------

The Bad Wolf thing irritated me doubly as the BBC Radio Times had a big front cover with Bad Wolf all over it, and the ending of Turn Left with 'Bad Wolf' was a hell of a last 5 minute-surprise for me, which I really enjoyed after a reset button episode.

[Drooling Iguana]

Seriously though. They've actually created a villain who actually deserves to go to hell, what with having just committed a literally infinite number of attempted murders. For once, they could have put the cheap no-kill morality away and just shot him.

The Family of Blood? They killed a small town and upset the Doctor! Horrible cruel and unusual punishments for them!

The Master? Murdered millions, maybe billions. "I forgive you."

Just for once, I'd like to see an actual uber-villain get the Family of Blood treatment, instead of let off with a pat on the back, and conviniently killed by plot because the Doctor's too cowardly to judge anyone... unless they make him upset by ruining his chance at happiness or some nonsense.

The Master was a Time Lord. Davros, while initially just a regular puny Kaled, led an army that could stand toe-to-toe with Gallifrey and could therefore be considered the Doctor's equal. The Family of Blood were, in the Doctor's words, "mayflies." Little people. Commoners. You can take the Time Lord away from Gallifrey, but you can't take Gallifrey out of the Time Lord.

[Patrick Degan]

Well, one thing's for sure. "The Stolen Earth"/"Journey's End" gives one a whole new appreciation for "The War Games" and "Trial Of A Time Lord".

[Stark]

I was shocked that the Doctor willingly killed over 6000 Londoners in Age of Steel - granted they were all Cybermen, but he had witnessed first hand that they were still people. Maybe he saw it as a mercy killing, but even so he didn't even seem to hesitate. Yet he couldn't bring himself to use the Delta Wave weapon against the Dalek Emperor and his armada in Parting of the Ways, even though it spelt certain death for himself and the entire human race.

Seriously, the Doctor is one conflicted guy. Regenerating into completely different people probably contributes to that, I suspect.

I guess you missed that the entire first season was about war guilt, then? The Doctor prefers to die than become a quadruple-genocider, because he's had enough and the last time nearly destroyed his life.

I too also wondered about the Bad Wolf signs at the end of Turn Left. At least with Rose we knew that she was the cause of them, and they served a purpose. But who the hell created the Bad Wolf signs this time? We never find out. Because they turned up, I kept predicting to everyone that someone must end up doing another Rose/BadWolf and seeding the signs that the Doctor sees in Turn Left, but I was wrong, that never happened (and admittedly they're unlikely to use the same plot element twice). It's still unexplained.

This is called 'terrible writing'. The only good moments of that entire episode, and they don't ever refer to it ever again, it's never given an explanation, etc. Whoops.

The S3 hypocrisy is my favourite bit of terrible writing, right up there with 'the Doctor is going to regenerate two episodes after we found out Tennant's regeneration lasts into old age'. I mean, from a dramatic perspective I think it was powerful - the Doctor, when humiliated and chastened by a human, will become extremely angry and vengeful. When confronted by a mass-murdering psychopath lunatic enemy of the universe, all he can think about is how awesome it was being mates in university and how he doesn't want to be alone. Turns out, he's an emotionally crippled hypocrite.

Except he isn't, because the writers are too stupid to notice shit like this. Woman saying 'yeah you coming here to hide out pretty much killed dozens of people' = absurdly hideous punishments, but torture, universal conquest etc = not too bad really.

[Straha]

I was going to post a long criticism of this episode and all its faults until it hit me that there's no part of this episode that can stand on its own.

Take Rose: How has she been contacting the Doctor before (in the Tardis and in Midnight)? Who is sending her to do this and how? Especially since the rift between dimensions is closed and it was stressed that there would be dire dire dire consequences if it was ever opened again, or again and again and again and again and again and again. And what is she supposed to be doing? "The stars are going out" she says but we find out that there are only twenty something planets that are taken, to be used as a weapon that destroys everything. So once she gets here what does she do? Hug the Doctor and... sit in a forcefield. Then why does she have to leave the Doctor she loves and who loves her? Can't be dimensional quantum flim flam because Mickey and Jackie can stay no problem. Isn't because the Doctor doesn't want her around, because he most definitely still loves her. So why does she have to go with the human Doctor? Also why does the Human Doctor have to go? Genocide here is bad, but genocide in the dimension holding the woman he loves is A-Okay? And why is this genocide bad when the Doctor himself almost did it and then decided not to only because the Daleks caused more good in the universe than harm.


And that's just Rose. Go through the rest and it just gets worse. So it's just not worth it. This episode was the singular worst failure of the entire new series, even worse than Doctor's Daughter or Last of the Time Lords. And that's really all that can be said about it.


Pet peeve add-on: In the old Doctor Who series there were times when extraordinary things were sold to the audience. Like the Doctor being hit by a meteor and surviving, the Doctor dying when the Tardis was bumped a little and quite a bit more which escapes me at the moment. It was never shown exactly what happened and it was never explained. There was often a "I'll explain later" line, or some nod that there was a reasonable explanation which they weren't going to tell us. It was bad writing but tolerable and even sometimes enjoyable. In the new series they do the exact opposite. Rather then not show or explain they show the mechanics of exactly how Donna is immobilizing the Daleks and their weaponry and explain it while she's doing it. What was unbelievable before becomes unbearable now. Protagonists gain the implicit ability merely to fix the situation by their presence and become walking talking sonic screwdrivers with the Doctor being the biggest tool... I mean, Screwdriver of them all. I'd say that RTD doesn't know better, but Midnight (where nothing is satisfactorily explained, and to great effect) proves otherwise. It exasperates me to no end and this recurring problem is what, I think, sunk almost all of the three final episodes if not the last two seasons.

[NecronLord]

the Doctor dying when the Tardis was bumped a little

If you're talking of Time and the Rani, y'know, that's the fanon version. The actual show depicts it quite definately under attack by the Rani. Seriously. There's energy weapons hitting it from multiple directions... More than 'bumped a little' as wikipedia would you believe.

Also, I'd say she has a tractor beam that looks like a rainbow, but it actually akes off on a rainbow too. I can only assume it's a drive problem caused by the attack.

[Straha]

the Doctor dying when the Tardis was bumped a little

If you're talking of Time and the Rani, y'know, that's the fanon version. The actual show depicts it quite definately under attack by the Rani. More than 'bumped a little' as wikipedia would you believe.

I watched Time and the Rani some time ago and I'd rather not subject myself to it again. Still, IIRC, the Doctor dies but his companion does not when you'd think that if it could kill a time lord it would most definitely wreck a human. And it's never exactly explained how the Rani attacking the Tardis would only kill the Doctor and leave the TARDIS operationa Even so I'll gladly concede the point, but my main argument from the post stands. Just look at all the times the Master returned with merely a "So you escaped from Castrovala". It worked better that way and I wish they'd go back to it.

[NecronLord]

I watched Time and the Rani some time ago and I'd rather not subject myself to it again. Still, IIRC, the Doctor dies but his companion does not when you'd think that if it could kill a time lord it would most definitely wreck a human.

That's really, really, simplistic thinking. What if he bashed his head on the corner of the console, and Mel just fell over?

And it's never exactly explained how the Rani attacking the Tardis would only kill the Doctor and leave the TARDIS operationa

She's a Time Lady (and one with far higher grades and better tardis operation skills than the Doctor at that) presumably she knows how to shake the things up until the crew's unconcious or dead.

[Thanas]

I was going to post a long criticism of this episode and all its faults until it hit me that there's no part of this episode that can stand on its own.

Take Rose: How has she been contacting the Doctor before (in the Tardis and in Midnight)? Who is sending her to do this and how? Especially since the rift between dimensions is closed and it was stressed that there would be dire dire dire consequences if it was ever opened again, or again and again and again and again and again and again. And what is she supposed to be doing? "The stars are going out" she says but we find out that there are only twenty something planets that are taken, to be used as a weapon that destroys everything. So once she gets here what does she do? Hug the Doctor and... sit in a forcefield. Then why does she have to leave the Doctor she loves and who loves her? Can't be dimensional quantum flim flam because Mickey and Jackie can stay no problem. Isn't because the Doctor doesn't want her around, because he most definitely still loves her. So why does she have to go with the human Doctor? Also why does the Human Doctor have to go? Genocide here is bad, but genocide in the dimension holding the woman he loves is A-Okay? And why is this genocide bad when the Doctor himself almost did it and then decided not to only because the Daleks caused more good in the universe than harm.

ITA to all what you said. The reasoning of the Doctor makes even less sense considering that he wanted to take the Master along and even wanted to save Davros. So he couldn't handle a second him?

Besides, why the fuck was there a need to bring Rose back in the first place, then dump her in the alternate universe again? If one wanted a happy reunion but clean the slate, one could easily have them flying off together and then simply show her dieing after having lived her fantastic life. That would have been a more fulfilling conclusion and provided way more emotional impact than the Donna scene. Billie Piper was also right on the money when she said in the confidential that the end of her character arc felt "wrong".

Somehow I get the feeling RTD tried to do justice to every character he created but then chickened out, resulting in everyone getting screwed over, whether by act of plot or by characterization.

Also, I blame editing. For example, the human doctor was supposed to get a Tardis piece to grow his own Tardis of, but the scene was cut.

[Patrick Degan]

Besides, why the fuck was there a need to bring Rose back in the first place, then dump her in the alternate universe again? If one wanted a happy reunion but clean the slate, one could easily have them flying off together and then simply show her dieing after having lived her fantastic life. That would have been a more fulfilling conclusion and provided way more emotional impact than the Donna scene.

It also would have starkly made the point about how a woman could spend the rest of her life with the Doctor but no way he could spend the rest of his life with her. Same as in the first Highlander movie when Connor steadily watched his beloved age and held her when she died, an old woman.

[Thanas]

^Exactly. I admit that this scene was at the front of my mind when I wrote my take on the scenario.

[Stark]

It also would have starkly made the point about how a woman could spend the rest of her life with the Doctor but no way he could spend the rest of his life with her. Same as in the first Highlander movie when Connor steadily watched his beloved age and held her when she died, an old woman.

But RTD could never actually kill one of his pet characters; he's as much as said that he'd never kill Rose. Such a move away from the current 'directly linked episode' thing would be good, would have done something good to both characters (and allowed the Doctor to pick a damn character trait) and even let other writers have more scope with 'previous adventures' without constantly refering to previous episodes.

I think what Straha is saying is that the current show explains in terrible detail what it shouldn't ('re-route the fluma-fluma to spin Daleks lol') and doesn't explain plot-critical shit ('where the fuck is Rose even coming from, how, and why the fuck was she deliberately avoiding the Doctor all season'). It's gone Star Trek.

[Jade Falcon]

Besides, why the fuck was there a need to bring Rose back in the first place, then dump her in the alternate universe again? If one wanted a happy reunion but clean the slate, one could easily have them flying off together and then simply show her dieing after having lived her fantastic life. That would have been a more fulfilling conclusion and provided way more emotional impact than the Donna scene. Billie Piper was also right on the money when she said in the confidential that the end of her character arc felt "wrong".

It seemed simply an opportunity to have Rose turn up in the first part, attempting to 'look hard' (and failing) and then have that cheesy slow-mo run and then hang around with that silly smile on her face. She did absolulety squat in the episode and only there for RTD's ego.

[Chardok]

Pet peeve add-on: In the old Doctor Who series there were times when extraordinary things were sold to the audience. Like the Doctor being hit by a meteor and surviving, the Doctor dying when the Tardis was bumped a little and quite a bit more which escapes me at the moment. It was never shown exactly what happened and it was never explained. There was often a "I'll explain later" line, or some nod that there was a reasonable explanation which they weren't going to tell us. It was bad writing but tolerable and even sometimes enjoyable. In the new series they do the exact opposite. Rather then not show or explain they show the mechanics of exactly how Donna is immobilizing the Daleks and their weaponry and explain it while she's doing it. What was unbelievable before becomes unbearable now. Protagonists gain the implicit ability merely to fix the situation by their presence and become walking talking sonic screwdrivers with the Doctor being the biggest tool... I mean, Screwdriver of them all. I'd say that RTD doesn't know better, but Midnight (where nothing is satisfactorily explained, and to great effect) proves otherwise. It exasperates me to no end and this recurring problem is what, I think, sunk almost all of the three final episodes if not the last two seasons.

THAT, my spammy friend, is a product of the treknobabble phenomenon where fucking writers and producers think the viewing public MUST have everything justified "Scientifically" instead of the old way ala Star Wars or even Star Trek where it's "Hey - this is what it is; deal with it.".

For my money - it's more fun to speculate in my head rather than have the explanation force-fed to me via an endless series of diatribes about morality and space folding or whatever.

I think we've even discussed this before - Alot of us Whoheads' favorite moments consist of The Doctor saying precisely the above in some way, shape or form (That is - "Timey Wimey", or "No idea, didn't want to say 'Magic Door'" Or even "Oi, who looks at a screwdriver and says 'needs more sonic'?" Though the last wasn't The Doctor.)

[NecronLord]

It occured to me last night, that all Donna actually needed to say was "Firing key disabled..." and "Oh look, the kind mister Davros installed a state of grace mechanism... I suppose he didn't want the daleks shooting him again. Sealing the vault." None of that "backfeed reversal loop" technobabble.

[petesampras]

I think the ultra technobabble is a symptom of the Doctor-wanking present in the new series. Technobabble is used to represent the Doctors power. He spouts reams of incomprehensible gibberish and amazing things happen - like magic. In this context, it was almost necessary for Donna to spout all that techno-babble to show that she had absorbed the Doctors power.

[NecronLord]

It's certainly endemic. But I think the audience could have got the same point from a less egregious use of it.

[Patrick Degan]

I think the ultra technobabble is a symptom of the Doctor-wanking present in the new series. Technobabble is used to represent the Doctors power. He spouts reams of incomprehensible gibberish and amazing things happen - like magic. In this context, it was almost necessary for Donna to spout all that techno-babble to show that she had absorbed the Doctors power.

I'm afraid that's a Trek influence. It's creeping into general media SF more and more.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I think the ultra technobabble is a symptom of the Doctor-wanking present in the new series. Technobabble is used to represent the Doctors power. He spouts reams of incomprehensible gibberish and amazing things happen - like magic. In this context, it was almost necessary for Donna to spout all that techno-babble to show that she had absorbed the Doctors power.

Hypersonic Soundwaves!