GENEVA (AP) — Swiss nationalists are forcing a popular vote on whether to ban the construction of Muslim minarets — a proposal that, if approved, could clash with Switzerland's constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion.
The Interior Ministry said it received a petition Tuesday for a referendum on the issue with more than the required 100,000 signatures.
It was submitted by members of the nationalist Swiss People's Party and the fringe Federal Democratic Union, which say they are acting to fight the spread of political Islam. They argue the minaret symbolizes a bid for political and religious power rather than just a religious sign.
People's Party lawmaker Walter Wobmann defended the move, saying the authorization for constructing a minaret in Winterthur near Zurich and pending requests in three other Swiss towns have exceeded the limits of many Swiss people's tolerance.
"Many recognize in this a further step in the creeping Islamization of Switzerland," he said.
Opponents of a construction ban said it would violate religious freedom, and Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey has warned it would lead to a security risk for Switzerland by sparking Muslim anger.
Minarets are tall spires typically built next to mosques where religious leaders call the faithful to prayer. There are now only two minarets in Switzerland, attached to mosques in Zurich and Geneva, but neither is used for calls to prayer.
This is not the first time the People's Party has ignited a provocative campaign.
Recently it embarked on an anti-immigrant initiative, complete with posters showing a black sheep being kicked off a Swiss flag and dark hands grabbing at a pile of Swiss passports. But voters last month overwhelmingly rejected the party's proposal to make it harder for foreigners to gain citizenship.
Henri-Maxime Khedoud, spokesman for the Swiss Association of Muslims for Secularism, said the latest initiative is an attack on Muslims and contrary to the freedom of everyone to practice his faith.
Khedoud also said the referendum appeared to be a bid for attention and expressed confidence that Swiss voters would see through the headline-grabbing political stunt.
"I'm sure it will be rejected," he told The Associated Press.
More than 310,000 of Switzerland's 7.5 million people are Muslims, according to the Federal Statistical Office.
The Swiss government is concerned about the impact the referendum will have on its international image. Swiss President Pascal Couchepin said the government will recommend voters reject the proposed ban. Other members of Switzerland's cross-party government have also spoken out against the ban.
Still, construction of traditional mosques and minarets in European countries has rarely been a trouble-free affair. Sweden, France, Italy, Austria, Greece, Germany and Slovenia are among the countries that have experienced opposition or protests against such projects.
In Cologne, Germany, plans to expand the city's Ditib Mosque and complete it with dome and two 177-foot-tall minarets have triggered an outcry from right-wing groups and the city's Roman Catholic archbishop.
A United Nations expert on racism, Doudou Diene, says the campaign is evidence of an "ever-increasing trend" toward anti-Islamic actions in Europe.
Switzerland's unique system of grass-roots democracy allows political hard-liners to take the issue further than in other European countries, where constitutional courts or governments have blocked moves against mosques and minarets. Any Swiss citizen who collects 100,000 signatures within 18 months can put an initiative to a nationwide vote.
No date has been set for the referendum. If it is approved, the Swiss parliament will have to enact a law enshrining a construction ban in the constitution.
I don't know how these racists got the required 100 000 votes, but I hope to God the referendum doesn't pass. It's such a blatantly assholish attempt to piss off Swiss Muslims, who number 300,000 and only have 2 minarets in the entire frickin country!
P.S Is it just me or is the Swiss method of holding referendums really easy? In Australia, we have to jump through hoops of fire to get a referendum to the public, and we're generally just too lazy to change the status quo. e.g only 8 out of 44 referenda since 1906 have passed.
Henri-Maxime Khedoud, spokesman for the Swiss Association of Muslims for Secularism, said the latest initiative is an attack on Muslims and contrary to the freedom of everyone to practice his faith.
Since when are minarets necessary to practise their faith? Does the Qu'ran or do the Hadiths state that a mosque must have a minaret? The mosques in Geneva and Zuerich don't call out the adhan from their minarets, which is what they're for - so why bother having a minaret?
More than 310,000 of Switzerland's 7.5 million people are Muslims, according to the Federal Statistical Office.
Most of whom are from the Balkans (Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia) and Turkey. In 2000, 175 374 (56.4%) Muslims were from what was Yugoslavia, and 62 698 (20.2%) were from Turkey.
A United Nations expert on racism, Doudou Diene, says the campaign is evidence of an "ever-increasing trend" toward anti-Islamic actions in Europe.
And?
I don't know how these racists got the required 100 000 votes, but I hope to God the referendum doesn't pass.
Bigots perhaps, but what's racist about banning the construction of minarets if over 75% of Muslims are European? The FDU/EDU (a fundamentalist Christian political party, complete with "women in the kitchen, men at work" garbage) are against minarets because according to them it's "a symbol of triumph over millions of Christians oppressed by Islam". Some of the SVP politicians involved (Jasmin Hutter and Dominique Baettig) are against the construction of minarets because " Islam threatens values like respect for women and tolerance of homosexuals".
Building a minaret is not building a mosque. A ban on the former is not a ban on the latter. Your freedom to do as you wish inside the building, is not compromised by the details you are/are not permitted to place upon the exterior.[/u]
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
Switzerland is an almost ridiculously Christian country. For example, numerous cantons have rules against doing laundry on Sundays, and even major stores in major commercial districts shut down on Sunday. Doesn't surprise me that something like this would happen.
As to the above, a minaret is not required to practice one's religion, but it strikes me as a form of freedom of expression. They're not arguing that the thing is architecturally dangerous, or anything, so it seems to me that they may have to present a stronger case.
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I think that in Switzerland, enough people in any given canton not liking the look of a particular structure *is* a sufficiently strong case, to ban it.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
[R_H] wrote:
Since when are minarets necessary to practise their faith? Does the Qu'ran or do the Hadiths state that a mosque must have a minaret? The mosques in Geneva and Zuerich don't call out the adhan from their minarets, which is what they're for - so why bother having a minaret?
No, it's not necessary to Islam.
But it is patently stupid to forbid the future construction of architectural elements. Now do those architectural elements have political and religious meanings as well? Surely they do, considering they're stuck to a mosque. But they hold no inherent meaning of 'Islamic superiority' over Christianity, any more than Christian crosses on top of a cathedral indicate Christian superiority.
[R_H] wrote:Bigots perhaps, but what's racist about banning the construction of minarets if over 75% of Muslims are European?
Bigots it is then. I thought that like other European nations, their Muslim population was made up of Arab/African immigrants. The 'Islamophobia' debate is connected up with immigration as well, and these particular Swiss parties haven't been averse to using race in their campaigns.
Maybe some feminists could jump in with an assertion that minarets are symbols of patriachal phallocentrism and attendant oppression of women, and that construction of minarets should be prohibited on gender-equality grounds.
I find myself endlessly fascinated by your career - Stark, in a fit of Nerd-Validation, November 3, 2011
hongi wrote:...But it is patently stupid to forbid the future construction of architectural elements...
Here in the US it is fairly common to have strict restrictions on architectural styles. Especially in historic districts or gated communities. And I don't know if this is still the case, but at one point it was not permitted to build a structure taller than 3 stories in Paris. So there is precedent for cities/communities to enforce regulations on building aesthetics.
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If the political parties are using that argument, good luck and godspeed. Aside from cities needing to maintain a uniform aesthetic, I'm sure they have safety regulations as well, especially in earthquake heavy zones.
Are the SWP using that argument?
"Many recognize in this a further step in the creeping Islamization of Switzerland," he said.
hongi wrote:If the political parties are using that argument, good luck and godspeed. Aside from cities needing to maintain a uniform aesthetic, I'm sure they have safety regulations as well, especially in earthquake heavy zones.
Are the SWP using that argument?
"Many recognize in this a further step in the creeping Islamization of Switzerland," he said.
Er, no.
Yeah, creeping Islamisation isn't the case. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that's happened in the last little while which could be described as such.
Master of Ossus wrote:Switzerland is an almost ridiculously Christian country. For example, numerous cantons have rules against doing laundry on Sundays, and even major stores in major commercial districts shut down on Sunday. Doesn't surprise me that something like this would happen.
Well, that's not strictly Swiss. Tough luck trying to find an open shop (that isn't also a petrol station) in Germany. We're not extremely catholic, but the laws that regulate (while being born out of christian tradition) this are old and changing them is an uphill battle (because no one likes working on Sunday).
The Swiss might be a bit more religious, but they are even less willing to move away from traditions than Germans are.
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Kanastrous wrote:I think that in Switzerland, enough people in any given canton not liking the look of a particular structure *is* a sufficiently strong case, to ban it.
My sister lives in Switzerland. As she put it, everything is either illegal or heavily regulated. Can get almost comical since at one point soon before Euro 08 there was a demonstration (I think from one of the factions from the right). The city had police out in full riot gear, and they stayed on alert for a few hours after the protest (which consisted entirely of people with signs walking around, surrounded by other members of the protest holding a rope that was keeping them all in a certain space) had already moved on to somewhere else.
hongi wrote:...But it is patently stupid to forbid the future construction of architectural elements...
Here in the US it is fairly common to have strict restrictions on architectural styles. Especially in historic districts or gated communities. And I don't know if this is still the case, but at one point it was not permitted to build a structure taller than 3 stories in Paris. So there is precedent for cities/communities to enforce regulations on building aesthetics.
Oh please, this isn't suburban NIMBYism or people wanting to wreckovate an historical urban neighboorhood, but religious discrimination and a limit on free speech pure and simple.
[R_H] wrote: Some of the SVP politicians involved (Jasmin Hutter and Dominique Baettig) are against the construction of minarets because " Islam threatens values like respect for women and tolerance of homosexuals".
And guess what, in 2002-2003, many American feminists and liberals jumped on board the Lets Attack Iraq bandwagon for the same reasons-to liberate Iraqi women from their horrible Baathist oppression and to bring Western style reform to Iraq. How's that coming?
Kanastrous wrote:Is it true that in order to emigrate to Switzerland, you must be vetted and approved by the community in which you plan to live?
No, not any more. Some communities had it, but were forced to change it. The SVP tried to reinstate that through a referendum, but it did not get enough votes.
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC GALE Force Euro Wimp Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Kanastrous wrote:Is it true that in order to emigrate to Switzerland, you must be vetted and approved by the community in which you plan to live?
No, not any more. Some communities had it, but were forced to change it. The SVP tried to reinstate that through a referendum, but it did not get enough votes.
Wasn't that vetting needed only if you applied for citizenship?
Given Switzerland's tradition of local democracy, I can see that as being reasonable.
OTOH, there are arguments to be made against that position and the Swiss courts agreed with them, so who am I as an American to tell the Swiss that local democracy is good or bad?
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier
hongi wrote:...But it is patently stupid to forbid the future construction of architectural elements...
Here in the US it is fairly common to have strict restrictions on architectural styles. Especially in historic districts or gated communities. And I don't know if this is still the case, but at one point it was not permitted to build a structure taller than 3 stories in Paris. So there is precedent for cities/communities to enforce regulations on building aesthetics.
You try banning minarets explicitly because they're Islamic anywhere in the United States, you'll get sued so hard your asshole bleeds for a year. I don't know who you think you're fooling, but when the referendum's own authors explicitly state their purpose is religious discrimination, citing secular building codes as precedent is just laughable. Ditto to the people who are justifying this with, "Oh, well, the minaret isn't necessary". Who gives a fuck? The referendum is explicitly discriminatory, nobody has even tried ginning up a non-discriminatory justification, the Swiss constitution outlaws religious discrimination (at least the English translation I found does), end of story.
If you want to defend religious discrimination, don't be a fucking pussy about it. Come right out and say "I think laws which discriminate against Muslims are a good idea." These half-assed apologetics aren't worth the electrons they're made out of.
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963 X-Ray Blues
[R_H] wrote:Some of the SVP politicians involved (Jasmin Hutter and Dominique Baettig) are against the construction of minarets because " Islam threatens values like respect for women and tolerance of homosexuals".
I thought Islamic nations had a strangely schizophrenic attitude towards homosexuality, i.e., repeating the "Grrr kill all fags!" propoganda from Judaism and Christianity while turning a blind eye to Muslim men saying things like "Women are for making babies, men are for making love"? (If you're confused by Muslims NOT practicing what they preach or simultaneously preaching opposing views, don't worry; you're probably not the only one.)
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Glocksman wrote: who am I as an American to tell the Swiss that local democracy is good or bad?
The guy in the country with the air force with all the smart bombs?
That seemed to be a lynchpin of our last stab at marketing democracy abroad.
The snark is with you , but you are not a Jedi yet.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier
[R_H] wrote:Some of the SVP politicians involved (Jasmin Hutter and Dominique Baettig) are against the construction of minarets because " Islam threatens values like respect for women and tolerance of homosexuals".
I thought Islamic nations had a strangely schizophrenic attitude towards homosexuality, i.e., repeating the "Grrr kill all fags!" propoganda from Judaism and Christianity while turning a blind eye to Muslim men saying things like "Women are for making babies, men are for making love"? (If you're confused by Muslims NOT practicing what they preach or simultaneously preaching opposing views, don't worry; you're probably not the only one.)
Islam doesn't threaten values like tolerance for homosexuals, it demolishes them. Homosexuality is a huge sin in Islam and you're lucky if you're shunned as opposed to persecuted.
But the backasswardness of Islam has nothing to do with minarets. If they're so concerned about Islamic values, they should seriously just blow up the mosques and drive Muslims out of the country. I have a sneaking suspicion that they want just that.
[R_H] wrote:Some of the SVP politicians involved (Jasmin Hutter and Dominique Baettig) are against the construction of minarets because " Islam threatens values like respect for women and tolerance of homosexuals".
I thought Islamic nations had a strangely schizophrenic attitude towards homosexuality, i.e., repeating the "Grrr kill all fags!" propoganda from Judaism and Christianity while turning a blind eye to Muslim men saying things like "Women are for making babies, men are for making love"? (If you're confused by Muslims NOT practicing what they preach or simultaneously preaching opposing views, don't worry; you're probably not the only one.)[/quote
IIRC that saying is an arab one, not necessarily an islamic one, and I doubt you'd find many ordinary muslims who agree with that while simulataniously condemming gays.
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AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character
[R_H] wrote: Some of the SVP politicians involved (Jasmin Hutter and Dominique Baettig) are against the construction of minarets because " Islam threatens values like respect for women and tolerance of homosexuals".
Besides the ban being racist bullshit, this explanation would work better if they had the usual African/Middle East Muslim mix, rather then mostly ex-Yugoslav (Bosniak and Albanian), which are far, far, more secular and relaxed about their religion then the fundie variants.
