Study: Gays Don't Harm Unit Cohesion

[Gil Hamilton]

Which right there shows the reason so many are against integration. This "my group matters more then the whole" is the exact fucking attitude they refer to when they speak of morale problems. It there with groups of fuckhead blacks/whites/mexicans/asians/puerto ricans/phillipinos/etc who come in and have their own little cliques and drag their feet with anyone outside it. Gays are just the latest group.

Let's make this real clear: you are supposed to change yourself to adapt to military culture, NOT the other way around. If the military lifts the ban and you go in with that attitude, you will still be treated as a second class citizen, and rightly so, because you will be what is known as a "fuckhead". "Fuckheads" are the jackasses who put themselves above the mission, and they have zero business being in.

This attitude of yours is what they seek to combat. They way they have chosen to do so is open discrimination, and needs to go. But the problem itself needs a solution.

Doesn't this strike you as a Catch-22? Military culture needs to change, but you can't change military culture because that goes against military culture. If you adapt yourself to military culture and the culture is the problem, then how can anyone expect it to change?

[Lonestar]

maybe I am just out of date. Perhaps you ought clear that up, what exactly is the penalty for being outed in the military these days?

Well, if you're a linguist it usually involves you being sent on terminal leave then "stop-held" and sent to Iraq/Kuwait/Afghanistan.

You have to go through a lot of stuff in order to get booted for being gay in the military. We had a guy on my ship who outed himself to the CMC, department head, XO, CO...and nothing happened. Then he outed himself to the chaplain(who was a raging idiot noted for saying that "Islam and Judaism are "basically the same", apperently because of the prohibition on pork) who screeched and screeched about it.

It is hard to get kicked out for being gay. Of course, I would overturn DADT just to prevent assholes from taking advantage of military schooling then going "uh...I'm gay." Right before deployment.

[Edi]

Doesn't matter what kind of shitbarrel they recruit the soldiers from, those recruits are supposed to adapt to the military and if they don't like having to treat people with a different sexual orientation as equals, that's tough shit. So they need to hammer in the new rules that abolish "Don't ask, don't tell".

That's what Ender is saying, is how I read it. The problem is people trying to form cliques and boundaries where none are supposed to exist, but I have no idea why so many are reading the exact opposite into his words. He says this sort of tribalism is why so many are against changing things and that their attitudes are the problem.

[Aaron]

Doesn't matter what kind of shitbarrel they recruit the soldiers from, those recruits are supposed to adapt to the military and if they don't like having to treat people with a different sexual orientation as equals, that's tough shit. So they need to hammer in the new rules that abolish "Don't ask, don't tell".

That's what Ender is saying, is how I read it. The problem is people trying to form cliques and boundaries where none are supposed to exist, but I have no idea why so many are reading the exact opposite into his words. He says this sort of tribalism is why so many are against changing things and that their attitudes are the problem.

Edi has the right of it. When the CF integrated woman in the '80's all the same arguments used against gays were used, when they opened all trades to woman they did it again and when gays were allowed to openly serve in the early 00's:once again they came out. At least the gays won't have to deal with a rape epidemic (or I hope).

Ender is exactly correct about the tribalism in the service (it exists everywhere else as well). A large number group themselves by trade, region and background in the units and I take it in the US, by race. This is what we need to change if the GLB community is ever going to be accepted in the military.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Doesn't matter what kind of shitbarrel they recruit the soldiers from, those recruits are supposed to adapt to the military and if they don't like having to treat people with a different sexual orientation as equals, that's tough shit. So they need to hammer in the new rules that abolish "Don't ask, don't tell".

That's what Ender is saying, is how I read it. The problem is people trying to form cliques and boundaries where none are supposed to exist, but I have no idea why so many are reading the exact opposite into his words. He says this sort of tribalism is why so many are against changing things and that their attitudes are the problem.

Maybe I am just over-sensitive, but in the context of what I was actually saying, he seemed to mean that gays just needed to deal with the current military culture the way it is (in terms of the bigotry we deal with, used as a reason to keep us out) until it changed on its own, maybe he just jumped on something I said to prove a point, but did not specify that this was the case, and indeed attacked me personally. Hence the reaction.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Doesn't matter what kind of shitbarrel they recruit the soldiers from, those recruits are supposed to adapt to the military and if they don't like having to treat people with a different sexual orientation as equals, that's tough shit. So they need to hammer in the new rules that abolish "Don't ask, don't tell".

That's what Ender is saying, is how I read it. The problem is people trying to form cliques and boundaries where none are supposed to exist, but I have no idea why so many are reading the exact opposite into his words. He says this sort of tribalism is why so many are against changing things and that their attitudes are the problem.

Edi has the right of it. When the CF integrated woman in the '80's all the same arguments used against gays were used, when they opened all trades to woman they did it again and when gays were allowed to openly serve in the early 00's:once again they came out. At least the gays won't have to deal with a rape epidemic (or I hope).

Ender is exactly correct about the tribalism in the service (it exists everywhere else as well). A large number group themselves by trade, region and background in the units and I take it in the US, by race. This is what we need to change if the GLB community is ever going to be accepted in the military.

Tribalism will always exist. No getting around it. The best one can do is try to redefine what the tribe is. Unfortunately what that definition is, is determined by who/what the individual interacts with on a daily basis. In order to get rid of the bullshit tribalism, one actually has to have open gays in a unit. Just like you wont get rid of racial tribalism without first integrating the units, same goes for women, people from different backgrounds, and people with a different MOS.

[Aaron]

Tribalism will always exist. No getting around it. The best one can do is try to redefine what the tribe is. Unfortunately what that definition is, is determined by who/what the individual interacts with on a daily basis. In order to get rid of the bullshit tribalism, one actually has to have open gays in a unit. Just like you wont get rid of racial tribalism without first integrating the units, same goes for women, people from different backgrounds, and people with a different MOS.

A friend of mine who joined in '74 uses the analogy of an oil tanker turning, it takes miles for it to turn a full circle. The same applies to changing the culture in the military and as you say everywhere else. It took over twenty years for woman to be finally accepted in the military and it will take twenty years from gay integration for the grumbling to stop. Basically when the guys who are "middle management" now, retire.

We obviously don't have the cultural issues that the US has but you are correct. I served with several gays and to be honest it was a little off putting at first until you realise that it doesn't matter who they fuck, only that they can do the job. And of course everyone freaked out when it was a guy but lesbians were awesome!

[Ender]

Maybe I am just over-sensitive, but in the context of what I was actually saying, he seemed to mean that gays just needed to deal with the current military culture the way it is (in terms of the bigotry we deal with, used as a reason to keep us out) until it changed on its own, maybe he just jumped on something I said to prove a point, but did not specify that this was the case, and indeed attacked me personally. Hence the reaction.

No. My point is more in line with what Edi and others pointed to pointed to. As I agreed with Mike, civilian control tells the military to change, not the individual recruits, the latter attitude being what I derived from your post.

The tribalism exists in the military, and there is no doubt in my mind it has gotten many people killed over the years through roundabout fashions. Guy in supply drags his feet for reactor department, so the machinery isn't up as soon, so they don't launch planes as soon, so there isn't air support when needed... you get the picture. It is a cancer in the service and needs to be rooted out so that the fuckheads get it through their skulls that it is one team one fight. One cannot deny that there is a strong gay counterculture movement, it is the presence of that movement creating extreme tribalism that most of the brass fear now. I read your post as supporting the tribalism outlook that needs to be abolished as hard and as fast as possible. If this is a communications problem, then there it is.

[Alyrium Denryle]

No. My point is more in line with what Edi and others pointed to pointed to. As I agreed with Mike, civilian control tells the military to change, not the individual recruits, the latter attitude being what I derived from your post.

Ah, OK. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was talking about a combination of civilian control making the policy change, and integration combined with policy making the culture (which is a different entity) change (the tribalist, homophobic culture that, to the extent it exists, causes the problems cited to keep us out of the military).

One cannot deny that there is a strong gay counterculture movement, it is the presence of that movement creating extreme tribalism that most of the brass fear now. I read your post as supporting the tribalism outlook that needs to be abolished as hard and as fast as possible. If this is a communications problem, then there it is.

Yeah, I am not one of those. I just want to be treated like an actual person and fully integrate. I rather strongly reject an outlook of Queer Separatism... until someone tells me I cant do something, then I show them up for all of homosexual kind, but that is neither here nor there.

As for the counterculture... the ones that are participating in that tend not to want to be in the military, they consider it a breeder thing... they may support the right of those who want to, to join up, but would never enlist themselves. Me, I am just ill-suited for military service. A virtual pacifist who is more at home in the lab than his own house.... but that is, again, neither here nor there.

[Stormbringer]

You know what that sounds like to me Stormbringer? It sounds like capitulation. There are bigots in the military. Of course there are! But instead of passing the equivalent of non-discrimination and hate-crime laws, you are suggesting that we capitulate. Not only capitulate, but actually punish the victims for having the gall to want to serve their country and not live in hiding at the same time.

Don't be so damned dumb. I think change is way overdue, and not just as regards gays but the social attitudes in general, and I believe that it shouldn't be ignored.

But I think you're overly optomistix if you think that changes like that are going to happen overnight. It took decades, centuries even depending on your perspective, for racial integration to happen and for the friction to stop. The integration of women is still ongoing and not with out it's issues. Day to day tolerance of gays into the military to the point of normalcy is going to take time and it's not something that can be imposed top down. I would hope that thing would change and not repeat the utter lunacy of the Bush Administration. I would also hope that they do more to enforce the kind of professionalism that would make life for gays, and other minorities including women, so much easier.

But either way, that culture is not going to change over night. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for the right thing. However, I do think there is a need for a realistic prospective on this.

Unfortunately the culture of the US is simply not there.

So? Why shouldn't the military lead the way, as it did with racial integration? The US military was way ahead of the general population in terms of its attitude toward racial integration, remember?

It should have and, at best, we're only at the beginning of the process. With luck the next administration will have the principles and smarts to push the process along. But, as I keep saying, it's not going to be an overnight change.

As for racial integration, that did happen before the general sweep of the civil rights movement but it was hardly a light bulb sort of sitatuation. And it took the Army almost a century after the Civil War to totally abandon racial segregation. And on top of that, the US right now is hardly blessed with the sort of forward thinking leadership that would be willing to take steps like that.

[Edi]

Stormbringer, that change in the military CAN be imposed from the top down and it should be done. If some fuckwits don't like it, then use the administrative punishments on them repeatedly until they get the fucking point. Another thing that works wonders in the military is collective punishment in the form of repeated runs, exercises, spit-and-polish bullshit and barracks inspections if it's made public who is responsible for it (i.e. the anti-gay bigots). If and when soldiers get an extra serving of pointless shit, they will be annoyed with the person who caused it, not the target of the troublemaker's prejudices. Unless of course they are prejudiced fuckwit twats themselves, in which case they could use even more shovelfuls of shit heaped on them until they either get with the program or get the fuck out.

Top that with court martials of a few of the worst troublemakers who stick out, put big publicity on that and drum them out with a dishonorable discharge and the rest of them will start getting the point really goddamn quick. They may not like it, but the sooner it's established that this is the way things are done and the gays are simply soldiers just like everyone else, the sooner this whole mess will be left behind.

It's not like the gays who want to join the military intend to flaunt it in front of everyone with rainbow colored uniforms and "I'm gay!" patches sewn onto their sleeves. Most of them are going to be just normal men who want to serve their country, only they happen to prefer other men as sexual partners.

[Justforfun000]

Edi Wrote:

It's not like the gays who want to join the military intend to flaunt it in front of everyone with rainbow colored uniforms and "I'm gay!" patches sewn onto their sleeves. Most of them are going to be just normal men who want to serve their country, only they happen to prefer other men as sexual partners.

Yes. Very good point there. I somehow doubt the queens who screech when they break a nail are going to like the idea of military life..

[Ender]

Another thing that works wonders in the military is collective punishment in the form of repeated runs, exercises, spit-and-polish bullshit and barracks inspections if it's made public who is responsible for it (i.e. the anti-gay bigots). If and when soldiers get an extra serving of pointless shit, they will be annoyed with the person who caused it, not the target of the troublemaker's prejudices.

See, the only holds true if you allow the groups to internally rectify the situation. I was in plenty of fuckdowns where one or two guys got the entire division utterly fucked over and all we could do was tell him we were pissed about it, to which their response was usually "go fuck yourself, stop bitching at me". Military right now is in a really weird transition phase where we have outlawed about half the old way of doing business, which makes the remaining way of doing business still legal, but ineffective. So we are trying to slowly figure out new ways to motivate and correct people, but right now the whole scenario is kinda fucked.

[Knife]

The best thing the admin could do is start shitcanning upper management that drag their feet on it. Replacements would be more willing to implement policy that way.