Worst Pseudoscience

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-03 10:39pm

Anyone have any examples of the worst use of Psuedoscience/bullshit/complete codswallop used to justify an unscientific viewpoint/argument?

For instance Durandals example of (mis)using Quantum Physics to explain how Chi is real.

BlueExcalibur · Post by **BlueExcalibur** » 2002-07-03 10:50pm

Anything from Voyager.

BlueExcalibur · Post by **BlueExcalibur** » 2002-07-03 10:52pm

Creationalism has a fair amount. Its too late to think of anything though.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-07-03 10:53pm

Anybody ever heard of Alex Chiu? He claims that he can give you magnetic rings that, when worn properly or somesuch, can make you immortal. I won't put a link to his website here, since he can trace it back (and then we'll have Chiu fans bombarding THIS board), but run a Google search on his name and you'll find how bloody ridiculous it is.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-03 11:03pm

SPOOFE wrote:Anybody ever heard of Alex Chiu? He claims that he can give you magnetic rings that, when worn properly or somesuch, can make you immortal. I won't put a link to his website here, since he can trace it back (and then we'll have Chiu fans bombarding THIS board), but run a Google search on his name and you'll find how bloody ridiculous it is.

They get a regular airing on ASVS and prodice howls of laughter, the guys a certified loon. Good example though.

Anyone seen the Uri Gellar excuses for why things don't always work for him? The best one to date has been that James Randi thought negative thoughts about him, so his demonstration of psychic powers failed... Randi was in Florida at the time, damn but those were powerful Negative thoughts someone harness them and we'll have a clean source of power for the future.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2002-07-03 11:19pm

Alex Chiu is definitely a good candidate.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-07-03 11:22pm

If you've ever seen The Amazing Jonathan perform on Comedy Central, one of his tricks/bits is to show people how Yuri Geller did his spoon-bending trick.

He starts off with a spoon, and looks at it intently. He says things like "already it starts to bend" to soften his prey.

All of a sudden, there's a giant flash-bang from the opposite corner of the room, and The Amazing Jonathan quickly takes his other hand and smashes the spoon, bending it, while everyone is distracted. He finishes with, "Oh, did you miss it? Oh, that's too bad, cuz I can't do it again. I'm drained."

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-03 11:28pm

Iceberg wrote:Alex Chiu is definitely a good candidate.

Yes the Healing properties of magnets, maybe we should get him and the "Magnetic fields cause cancer" crowd together and let them fight it out.

Anyone got any others? Lifeguards Heartbeat detctor being another example of bad science.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2002-07-03 11:34pm

More good technobabble can be found from Red Mage in 8-Bit Theater.

With extra-special fun for gamers.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-07-03 11:35pm

There's those people that think that prayer has an effect on hospitalized victims' conditions.

There's Thomas Aquinas' "First Mover" argument, which is still being kicked around today in Catholic schools as a lesson in logic, despite violating its own premise.

There's coal walkers who never seem to be willing to walk across a plate of solid steel heated to a few hundred degrees Celsius.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2002-07-03 11:38pm

There's a physics prof in San Diego (wrote the textbook used by my university's freshmen physics course) who uses coal-walking as a demonstration of vaporization physics.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-03 11:45pm

Iceberg wrote:More good technobabble can be found from Red Mage in 8-Bit Theater. With extra-special fun for gamers.

Subtle

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-03 11:47pm

If a patient in a hospital actually believes that prayer will help him, then people praying will help alleiviate his condition. While prayer itself does not help, if a patient feels happier, loved, cared-for, more confident, and relaxed, than his condition should improve or at least he would feel better.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-03 11:48pm

Durandal wrote:There's those people that think that prayer has an effect on hospitalized victims' conditions.

There's Thomas Aquinas' "First Mover" argument, which is still being kicked around today in Catholic schools as a lesson in logic, despite violating its own premise.

There's coal walkers who never seem to be willing to walk across a plate of solid steel heated to a few hundred degrees Celsius.

I would *love* to see one try it though.

Of course the "Mind over Matter" crowd seem strangely quiet on why it doesn't work in those circumstances.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-03 11:58pm

Doomriser wrote:If a patient in a hospital actually believes that prayer will help him, then people praying will help alleiviate his condition. While prayer itself does not help, if a patient feels happier, loved, cared-for, more confident, and relaxed, than his condition should improve or at least he would feel better.

And if he doesn't know? What if he has Terminal Cancer? Is blind? Has lost a limb? Suffering from Altsiemers? Has AIDs? Has been Paralysed the Destruction of his spinal column? Suffering from 80% coverage of burns? How exactly is the prayer going to help there, apart from assuaging the bad feelings of the one giving the prayer.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-04 12:17am

I thought that it was an established fact that people showing a patient how much they care and providing moral support can help, if only to a minor degree. If this is wrong, I guess you'll have to disassemble this myth too, since I've heard it often.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 12:27am

Doomriser wrote:I thought that it was an established fact that people showing a patient how much they care and providing moral support can help, if only to a minor degree. If this is wrong, I guess you'll have to disassemble this myth too, since I've heard it often.

How does saying a prayer help someone with 80% of their body covered in burns get better? Making someone feel better doesn't require prayer, if you want someone to feel better by cheering them up or feeling loved then go visit them. Any case doing it to make them feel better because they know someone is praying for them is the same as making them feel better by simply telling them your praying for them as they have no way to know if you do or don't. It is not resultant on the prayer, it's purely resultant on the patients perception.

It's the dumb fucks that think that by praying they are actually going to cure some poor SOB with Cancer or AIDs that make me want to scream!
[/u]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-07-04 12:37am

Attention!:

If you have had your pinkies and/or toes MRIed YOU MAY BE IMMORTAL! Or you have brain cancer and will die a horrible horrible death but not before you have to be MRIed again in order to be diagnosed.

That is all.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-04 12:42am

Rob: That's what I'm saying. Sorry for not making it more clear. Prayer is just one way of letting someone know that you care and thereby making them feel better. I'm not saying it will magically heal someone nor that it will bring someone out of excruciating pain! I'm thinking more along the lines of someone who is fighting an illness or recovering from a nasty operation, they feel like shit, wonder why they should go on living, when patients feel worth something, they tend to do better. What I am saying is that a person's perception of their self-worth and how other think about them can have an effect on the healing process. Maybe I'll have put in a more anti-religion quote so people will not misinterpret my intentions there, too.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 12:48am

Doomriser wrote:Rob: That's what I'm saying. Sorry for not making it more clear. Prayer is just one way of letting someone know that you care and thereby making them feel better. I'm not saying it will magically heal someone nor that it will bring someone out of excruciating pain! I'm thinking more along the lines of someone who is fighting an illness or recovering from a nasty operation, they feel like shit, wonder why they should go on living, when patients feel worth something, they tend to do better. What I am saying is that a person's perception of their self-worth and how other think about them can have an effect on the healing process. Maybe I'll have put in a more anti-religion quote so people will not misinterpret my intentions there, too.

Yes but I was pointing out that the Prayer itself has no value.
I.E.
Johnny has a broken Leg, i visit him and before I leave, i tell him that I will pray for his well being. A relapsed Christian, Johnny now feels better as he believes that a prayer has been sent for him. I however don't pray and so any feeling better that occurs to Johnny is purely from himself and nothing to do with prayer.

It's nothing to do with prayer and everything to do with the mindset and thoughts of the Sufferer.

You could accomplish as much by simply wishing them well and meaning it.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-04 01:46am

I disagree that prayer won't do anything. It will do two things:
Jack
and
Shit

but yes, if the sufferer is a devout Christian, stating that you will pray for him will give him a positive mindset. And yes, wishing someone well is all that is necessary. I've encountered situations where prayer is requested, though, and surely having been in the military, you have as well. Hell, "President" Bush asked the whole of U.S.A. to pray for the WTC victims, didn't he? For some people, praying specifically helps. But I agree, all that should be done is genuine well-wishing.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2002-07-04 01:49am

Rob Wilson wrote: Yes but I was pointing out that the Prayer itself has no value.
I.E.
Johnny has a broken Leg, i visit him and before I leave, i tell him that I will pray for his well being. A relapsed Christian, Johnny now feels better as he believes that a prayer has been sent for him. I however don't pray and so any feeling better that occurs to Johnny is purely from himself and nothing to do with prayer.

It's nothing to do with prayer and everything to do with the mindset and thoughts of the Sufferer.

You could accomplish as much by simply wishing them well and meaning it.

True, true. Although a hardcore Christian may be convinced that God will pay special attention to him, and be helped even more. But that's still mentality.

Datana · Post by **Datana** » 2002-07-04 03:33am

Have any of you been to the Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com)? They have a large list of pseudosciences, quackery, and the like along with links to resources about each and debunking information. A very fun read if you're feeling cynical.

Edit:
I assume you all already have this in your bookmarks, given that randi.org is already known to most of you. Sorry for the intrusion.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 08:11am

Doomriser wrote:I disagree that prayer won't do anything. It will do two things:
Jack
and
Shit

but yes, if the sufferer is a devout Christian, stating that you will pray for him will give him a positive mindset. And yes, wishing someone well is all that is necessary. I've encountered situations where prayer is requested, though, and surely having been in the military, you have as well. Hell, "President" Bush asked the whole of U.S.A. to pray for the WTC victims, didn't he? For some people, praying specifically helps. But I agree, all that should be done is genuine well-wishing.

When asked to pray in the Military for Church service all you do is close your eye's bow your head and move your lips whilst actually thinking about the Woman you shagged the night before when out on the town. No religion required.

As to Shrub and his asking people to pray, well good for him, instead of that I spent all my time Phoning, E-mailing and Posting to make sure my freinds and Family were alright. I know which one had the best effect for those I know.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2002-07-04 08:15am

Datana wrote:Have any of you been to the Skeptic's Dictionary (http://www.skepdic.com)? They have a large list of pseudosciences, quackery, and the like along with links to resources about each and debunking information. A very fun read if you're feeling cynical.

Edit:
I assume you all already have this in your bookmarks, given that randi.org is already known to most of you. Sorry for the intrusion.

Don't apologise, although Skepdics is actually a link on Mikes Creation Page, there's a chnce some people here have only read his SW vs St site. For those that haven't visited his Creation Page I strongly recommend it
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/index.shtml

and on the Theme of Useful URLs I think I'll create new Topic.