Student steals Communion wafer and receives death threats

[Darth Wong]

I don't think anybody should be surprised at the Catholic reaction. They (we?) take communion very seriously; after all, it is, according to dogma, the living flesh and blood of God. The kid's not guilty of a hate crime, but he is guilty of being a giant asshole.

I'm not going to bother digging through your posting history to see if you've been consistent on this, but are you seriously saying that anyone who does anything which offends a religion is "a giant asshole"? I hope you felt the same way about the people who made cartoons with Mohammed in them.

[Surlethe]

I don't think anybody should be surprised at the Catholic reaction. They (we?) take communion very seriously; after all, it is, according to dogma, the living flesh and blood of God. The kid's not guilty of a hate crime, but he is guilty of being a giant asshole.

I'm not going to bother digging through your posting history to see if you've been consistent on this, but are you seriously saying that anyone who does anything which offends a religion is "a giant asshole"? I hope you felt the same way about the people who made cartoons with Mohammed in them.

No, I think there's a component of 'activeness' involved. For example, the cartoonists making cartoons with Mohammed in them weren't necessarily giant assholes, but going to the trouble of putting up a giant picture of Mohammed in a Mosque would be an indication of assholeness. As another example, saying that Jesus was gay and Mary was a whore isn't necessarily assholish, but bringing it up in conversation with a Christian is. Does that make any sense?

Edit: So that's why this tripped my 'asshole detector': he went into a Catholic church to do something for the express purpose of offending Catholics.

[General Zod]

No, I think there's a component of 'activeness' involved. For example, the cartoonists making cartoons with Mohammed in them weren't necessarily giant assholes, but going to the trouble of putting up a giant picture of Mohammed in a Mosque would be an indication of assholeness. As another example, saying that Jesus was gay and Mary was a whore isn't necessarily assholish, but bringing it up in conversation with a Christian is. Does that make any sense?

Edit: So that's why this tripped my 'asshole detector': he went into a Catholic church to do something for the express purpose of offending Catholics.

So. . .your only measure of assholishness is how far someone goes out of their way to offend someone else as opposed to what it is they actually do?

[Surlethe]

Only? No. But that's what seems relevant here. Do you have a better measure for the notion?

[General Zod]

Only? No. But that's what seems relevant here. Do you have a better measure for the notion?

My only problem with your usage is in this instance it really doesn't seem like they were going out of their way. How hard is it to get a communion? If they had gone to leaps and bounds involving considerable personal risk beyond the aftermath I'd probably factor it in but I'm not really seeing it in this case.

I'd argue that they were assholish for intentionally disrupting their ceremony or whatever, but beyond that calling it a hate-crime is a gross kneejerking overreaction.

[Eulogy]

Only? No. But that's what seems relevant here. Do you have a better measure for the notion?

Oh for fuck's sake. The only thing the kid's guilty of is wasting food, Surlethe. By your tortured logic, practically EVERYONE is a giant asshole. I mean, who hasn't poked fun at $camentology? Or Microsoft?

[Darth Wong]

No, I think there's a component of 'activeness' involved. For example, the cartoonists making cartoons with Mohammed in them weren't necessarily giant assholes, but going to the trouble of putting up a giant picture of Mohammed in a Mosque would be an indication of assholeness.

In that case, you're trespassing and vandalizing.

As another example, saying that Jesus was gay and Mary was a whore isn't necessarily assholish, but bringing it up in conversation with a Christian is.

Not if he raised the subject.

Does that make any sense?

Not really.

Edit: So that's why this tripped my 'asshole detector': he went into a Catholic church to do something for the express purpose of offending Catholics.

Earth to Surlethe: in their public rhetoric, Catholic churches encourage outsiders to attend. Of course, they do this in the belief that anyone who attends a service will be bowled over by the Power Of Christ, but nonetheless, I have trouble with the idea that an outsider wandering into a Catholic church is necessarily being an asshole. He was invited there. He only becomes an unwanted guest when they realize that he's not going to act like every other drone in the building, which should be obvious beforehand if he's an outsider.

Now if he went there to hand out brochures or something, I would agree that he was being an asshole. But is that really the same thing as not taking their stale-bread ritual seriously? Frankly, that ritual is the most ridiculous thing about those services, and there's a long list to choose from.

[KlavoHunter]

Because I forgot to post it earlier.

[CaptainChewbacca]

For those who don't know, the 'Catholic League' is one guy with a server, a fax machine, and WAY too much time on his hands. I don't see what all the fuss is, personally.

[Darth Wong]

For those who don't know, the 'Catholic League' is one guy with a server, a fax machine, and WAY too much time on his hands. I don't see what all the fuss is, personally.

If he can get the press to take him seriously, then he is much more than one guy with a fax machine, unfortunately.

[CaptJodan]

My school, whoohoo!

[CaptJodan]

I love how this board automatically attacks a whole state (any state) for what could occur in any state and has no relevance at all to the state in question. There's more than enough shit Florida does that deserves massive ridicule, but no one even tries to differentiate a story that could "only happen in Florida or Germany" to one that could happen anywhere. If it's a story about Florida and it's about ANYTHING stupid, lets knee-jerk!

This one can happen anywhere, and if this is to be believed...

Catholics worldwide became furious.

Then it's far more indicative of a religious problem, especially since we're talking about national watchdogs and worldwide "fury".

Although I'll be the first (obviously not, but...if I caught it earlier) to mock this "hate crime" claim. Really? He stole a cracker. That's the most retarded thing I've heard this month!

[General Zod]

I love how this board automatically attacks a whole state (any state) for what could occur in any state and has no relevance at all to the state in question. There's more than enough shit Florida does that deserves massive ridicule, but no one even tries to differentiate a story that could "only happen in Florida or Germany" to one that could happen anywhere. If it's a story about Florida and it's about ANYTHING stupid, lets knee-jerk!

Or maybe we're just mocking Florida because so much weird shit comes out of there than anywhere else. Where the fuck did anyone say it could only happen in Florida anyway? So far you're the only person to bring this up that I can see. Overly defensive much?

[pieman3141]

Kids steal the communion bread at my church all the time, in front of everyone. Transubstantiation gone too far?

[Surlethe]

Only? No. But that's what seems relevant here. Do you have a better measure for the notion?

My only problem with your usage is in this instance it really doesn't seem like they were going out of their way. How hard is it to get a communion? If they had gone to leaps and bounds involving considerable personal risk beyond the aftermath I'd probably factor it in but I'm not really seeing it in this case.

It's not too difficult; just show up for mass and you can get it. Even though you're not supposed to get it if you're not Catholic, there's no way to enforce that. But the guy went out of his way not only to go to mass and get communion, but also to take it out of the church for the express purpose of making Catholics mad.

I'd argue that they were assholish for intentionally disrupting their ceremony or whatever, but beyond that calling it a hate-crime is a gross kneejerking overreaction.

Yeah, that's true. I'll concede that point.

No, I think there's a component of 'activeness' involved. For example, the cartoonists making cartoons with Mohammed in them weren't necessarily giant assholes, but going to the trouble of putting up a giant picture of Mohammed in a Mosque would be an indication of assholeness.

In that case, you're trespassing and vandalizing.

What about putting on a Mohammed t-shirt in order to go to a mosque?

As another example, saying that Jesus was gay and Mary was a whore isn't necessarily assholish, but bringing it up in conversation with a Christian is.

Not if he raised the subject.

But what if you raise it?

Does that make any sense?

Not really.

Edit: So that's why this tripped my 'asshole detector': he went into a Catholic church to do something for the express purpose of offending Catholics.

Earth to Surlethe: in their public rhetoric, Catholic churches encourage outsiders to attend. Of course, they do this in the belief that anyone who attends a service will be bowled over by the Power Of Christ, but nonetheless, I have trouble with the idea that an outsider wandering into a Catholic church is necessarily being an asshole. He was invited there. He only becomes an unwanted guest when they realize that he's not going to act like every other drone in the building, which should be obvious beforehand if he's an outsider.

It's not the act of attending a mass that I contend makes him an asshole, it's the act of attending mass for the purpose of taking a communion wafer in order to make Catholics mad.

Now if he went there to hand out brochures or something, I would agree that he was being an asshole. But is that really the same thing as not taking their stale-bread ritual seriously? Frankly, that ritual is the most ridiculous thing about those services, and there's a long list to choose from.

I don't have a problem with him not taking it seriously. He wants to be flippant about it, fine by me. Even if he wants to take communion and does it knowing he's not supposed to, that's okay, though it's kind of rude. But coming to mass just to take a wafer to get a reaction out of Catholics seems like it steps across the line.

[General Zod]

It's not too difficult; just show up for mass and you can get it. Even though you're not supposed to get it if you're not Catholic, there's no way to enforce that. But the guy went out of his way not only to go to mass and get communion, but also to take it out of the church for the express purpose of making Catholics mad.

Why do you keep thinking he went out of his way to do it? Suggesting this gives the impression that he had to go through a great deal of trouble for it or otherwise inconvenience himself, when chances are it was done purely on a lark. It's really not as big an effort as you're trying to make it out to be considering how prolific churches tend to be.

[Darth Wong]

What about putting on a Mohammed t-shirt in order to go to a mosque?

They wouldn't let you in the door. I still don't see how that makes him an "asshole", unless you subscribe to the idiotic notion that offending religious people automatically makes you an asshole.

Not if he raised the subject.

But what if you raise it?

That would depend on the exact nature of the conversation. If he clearly doesn't want to talk about it and I'm browbeating him relentlessly, then sure, that would make me the asshole. But if he's in a heated argument with me, I don't see why that should be off-limits.

It's not the act of attending a mass that I contend makes him an asshole, it's the act of attending mass for the purpose of taking a communion wafer in order to make Catholics mad.

And where in the article do you get the impression that he was deliberately intending to infuriate Catholics, instead of just wanting to show his friend what the wafer looks like, which was his stated intent?

I don't have a problem with him not taking it seriously. He wants to be flippant about it, fine by me. Even if he wants to take communion and does it knowing he's not supposed to, that's okay, though it's kind of rude. But coming to mass just to take a wafer to get a reaction out of Catholics seems like it steps across the line.

See above.

[Surlethe]

It's not too difficult; just show up for mass and you can get it. Even though you're not supposed to get it if you're not Catholic, there's no way to enforce that. But the guy went out of his way not only to go to mass and get communion, but also to take it out of the church for the express purpose of making Catholics mad.

Why do you keep thinking he went out of his way to do it? Suggesting this gives the impression that he had to go through a great deal of trouble for it or otherwise inconvenience himself, when chances are it was done purely on a lark. It's really not as big an effort as you're trying to make it out to be considering how prolific churches tend to be.

Well, it seems pretty obvious that he's not Catholic himself. The article in the OP says he took the wafer in order to show his friend how much communion means to Catholics; it makes sense that he wanted to show his friend what a big deal it is when something perceived as bad happens to the eucharist. So, the conclusion is that he went to a mass in order to do something that would make Catholics mad. I don't know if it was a major inconvenience, but I think that's beside the point.

[Surlethe]

What about putting on a Mohammed t-shirt in order to go to a mosque?

They wouldn't let you in the door. I still don't see how that makes him an "asshole", unless you subscribe to the idiotic notion that offending religious people automatically makes you an asshole.

Fine - you put on a Mohammed t-shirt under a sweatshirt, go to a mosque, and take the sweatshirt off. The "asshole" part is going to the trouble of doing something that offends people, not necessarily religious people.

That would depend on the exact nature of the conversation. If he clearly doesn't want to talk about it and I'm browbeating him relentlessly, then sure, that would make me the asshole. But if he's in a heated argument with me, I don't see why that should be off-limits.

Fair enough. I don't think this analogy is going anywhere; it was poor on my part from the beginning.

It's not the act of attending a mass that I contend makes him an asshole, it's the act of attending mass for the purpose of taking a communion wafer in order to make Catholics mad.

And where in the article do you get the impression that he was deliberately intending to infuriate Catholics, instead of just wanting to show his friend what the wafer looks like, which was his stated intent?

"Webster’s friend, who didn’t want to show his face, said he took the Eucharist, to show him what it meant to Catholics." I'm interpreting that to mean Webster took the wafer in order to show his friend what it means to Catholics, presumably by inciting a reaction. If I'm misreading it and he just took it in order to show it to his friend, that's a different matter entirely.

[CaptJodan]

Or maybe we're just mocking Florida because so much weird shit comes out of there than anywhere else.

So, mock because the word "Florida" (or Germany) is in the name. Got it.

Where the fuck did anyone say it could only happen in Florida anyway?

I expect, even demand that this state be mocked for it's retarded decisions which are above and beyond those that would happen elsewhere. But as you point out, this doesn't even rate on that scale. If this had happened in Virgina, Michigan, or New York it would have been about "those crazy fundies" (and to some, it is). But since it happened in Florida, it's "Florida sux, cut off the penis."

In addition, I just find it cheapens the insult when it's used every single time. I liken it to the unofficial moratorium on "I, for one, welcome our x overlords" that got so tiring after a while.

So far you're the only person to bring this up that I can see. Overly defensive much?

I wasn't aware I needed to get a majority to have an opinion.

Kids steal the communion bread at my church all the time, in front of everyone.

I remember trying to do that when I was a kid. Not so much steal it as eat it later, or maybe try to take more to munch on. I wasn't allowed to wait until a better time, like when I was hungry, just eat it then.

Honestly, how is cannibalism better than kidnapping in the church world?

[Darth Wong]

Do you really believe that all Catholics would react in such an insane way? Because I really don't think that this absurd over-reaction was predictable; your argument is based on the notion that all Catholics would react this way and that he knew this going in, ie- "this is what it means to Catholics".

If I had gone into a Catholic church and tried to smuggle out the wafer so I could show my kids what it looks like, I don't think I would have been able to predict this insane reaction. It would have taken me genuinely by surprise.

[Surlethe]

Really? I think it seems obvious that Catholics would react with shock and outrage at someone smuggling a communion wafer out of the eucharist. After all, absurd as the ritual may be, it is quite literally the most important part of the mass, which is the most important part of a Catholic's week. They believe it is a deity.

I don't know if you could predict a reaction that includes death threats and calling for hate-crime prosecution, but you could definitely predict some sort of irate reaction. But then, I grew up Catholic; what seems obvious to me about Catholics may not be obvious to everyone.

[General Zod]

Well, it seems pretty obvious that he's not Catholic himself. The article in the OP says he took the wafer in order to show his friend how much communion means to Catholics; it makes sense that he wanted to show his friend what a big deal it is when something perceived as bad happens to the eucharist. So, the conclusion is that he went to a mass in order to do something that would make Catholics mad. I don't know if it was a major inconvenience, but I think that's beside the point.

Whether or not it's an inconvenience rather determines whether or not he was going out of his way to do it, which rather affects the point of how much of an asshole he is.

[General Zod]

I expect, even demand that this state be mocked for it's retarded decisions which are above and beyond those that would happen elsewhere. But as you point out, this doesn't even rate on that scale. If this had happened in Virgina, Michigan, or New York it would have been about "those crazy fundies" (and to some, it is). But since it happened in Florida, it's "Florida sux, cut off the penis."

Who gives a fuck? It's not major but it's just more weird shit that comes out of Florida. You're making a mountain out of a molehill by getting defensive over something petty.

In addition, I just find it cheapens the insult when it's used every single time. I liken it to the unofficial moratorium on "I, for one, welcome our x overlords" that got so tiring after a while.

So ignore it? If it's not a big deal there's no need to get a bug up your ass over it.

I wasn't aware I needed to get a majority to have an opinion.

I wasn't aware "opinion" is what we were calling accusations these days. If you're going to accuse people of doing shit it generally helps if they actually are doing what you're claiming.

[Ender]

PX Myers has recieved death threats and attempts to get him fired for his comments on the subject

Go and show him some support.