What the hell happened to RTD? (Who spoilers for S1-4)

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2008-07-09 05:16pm

Dahak wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:I can't tell if Dahak's being serious or sarcastic.
Serious, I'm afraid

In that case, go to a doctor and have him check you out for an infection of brain eating fungus.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2008-07-09 05:17pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Gustav32Vasa wrote:Nothing, since I consider Journey's End one of his best episodes and one of the best episode of Doctor Who ever.
Don't worry. I'm sure with rest and care, you will eventually be able to leave the asylum in about five years.

Dont be ridiculous, I live in Sweden. I can get out by the open window.

While season 4 was not a the best season, I did enjoy the two last episodes very much. Perhaps because I like Donna and felt sad for what happened to her.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-09 06:47pm

Remember, if you dislike RTD's appalling output, you're clearly on the bandwagon. Just like hating Donna.

The people who can't see a drop in quality are those who don't care about the content; it's just a fun, silly show for them. That's great for them, but it doesn't contribute anything to a discussion of poor writing to say 'I don't mind poor writing because I have lower standards' or 'I don't care it's nonsensical rubbish because I can enjoy it anyway'. Even Big Orange used to say meaningful things, before all his posts deteriorated into 'it was bad but I liked it anyway neener neener'.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2008-07-09 07:21pm

One notable thing I think is originally RTD made a big point about how he had no intention of listening to fans. To him shows that listened to their fans too much alienated the mainstream audience.

Contrast that to the season four finale, where he has apparently been on record as proudly calling it "fanwank".

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-09 07:26pm

Lord Woodlouse wrote:One notable thing I think is originally RTD made a big point about how he had no intention of listening to fans. To him shows that listened to their fans too much alienated the mainstream audience.

Contrast that to the season four finale, where he has apparently been on record as proudly calling it "fanwank".

To be honest, given the nature of the revival, I think the first season got much more work than the later ones - it wasn't on the yearly schedule, he'd been thinking about it for years beforehand, etc. This may have contributed to tighter overall plotting in the early seasons, and would leave little room for 'zomg Outpost Gallifrey wants moar Davroz' sort of thing. As the original material ran out, the show very much became liek the old series 'monster of the week' stuff with less focus, but RTD tried to shoehorn in 'series themes' anyway, and it wasn't successful.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-07-09 07:27pm

Another thing that comes to mind is that Christopher Eccleston was also very much concerned about the quality of the show he was starring in. For example, I remember one Season 1 confidential were he stated that there were many ways a revival could go wrong and that it was important to keep high standards.

Frankly, the people who go "I just enjoy it for silly entertainment" just puzzle me. That is the same attitude that eventually led to Voyager and Enterprise.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-07-09 07:30pm

Lord Woodlouse wrote:One notable thing I think is originally RTD made a big point about how he had no intention of listening to fans. To him shows that listened to their fans too much alienated the mainstream audience.

Contrast that to the season four finale, where he has apparently been on record as proudly calling it "fanwank".

Actually, RTD always did not intend to listen to fan criticism. He very much loves the adoration iirc.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-09 07:32pm

Thanas wrote:Frankly, the people who go "I just enjoy it for silly entertainment" just puzzle me. That is the same attitude that eventually led to Voyager and Enterprise.

Taste is subjective. However, facts aren't, and in a discussion about 'is this gold', would someone really say 'who cares, it's shiny and I like it'? By saying 'it's not drama/it's a kid's show/it's just fun' or similar, they're basically admitting they have nothing to say.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2008-07-10 01:53pm

Season One was a winning formula and it was not a bad move to change it for three more years (but RTD is becoming unstuck in coming out with original season finals, but I found "Last of the Time Lords" and "Journey's End" watchable entertainment). Chris was so demanding he supposedly left the series in a huff while David is a more malelable leading star (which could explain why the Tennant era was a bit more uneven in overall quality).

And Russell T. Davies is pretty outspoken against critical fans:

Davies slams 'Doctor Who mosquitoes'
Thursday, July 10 2008, 12:40 BST

By Ben Rawson-Jones, Cult Editor

Doctor Who fans, branding them "mosquitoes".

Speaking to The Guardian, the departing showrunner emphasised that these Whovians are a tiny minority in the vast fanbase, but are vocal enough to "dominate the agenda".

"They are not real fandom," Davies stated. "They are a core of mostly men who like to complain. Fandom is bigger and richer than that, and they are only about 1,000 people who give everyone else a bad name and build their life around a show."

Link

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-07-10 02:01pm

Stark wrote: Taste is subjective. However, facts aren't, and in a discussion about 'is this gold', would someone really say 'who cares, it's shiny and I like it'? By saying 'it's not drama/it's a kid's show/it's just fun' or similar, they're basically admitting they have nothing to say.

No love for pyrite shows then?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-07-10 02:02pm

To be fair, he was likely bitching about the OG retards and obsessives (though "mostly like to complain" is funny when you apply it to Stark). Like that guy who was a really rich record producer and had some of the original tapes. I don't know how oppressive his ego is to say whether he'd consider threads like this "mosquito" nests, but it seems likely.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-07-10 02:12pm

Big Orange wrote:Season One was a winning formula and it was not a bad move to change it for three more years (but RTD is becoming unstuck in coming out with original season finals, but I found "Last of the Time Lords" and "Journey's End" watchable entertainment). Chris was so demanding he supposedly left the series in a huff while David is a more malelable leading star (which could explain why the Tennant era was a bit more uneven in overall quality).

Where do you get the bit about Eccleston being demanding? There's nothing confirmed about his departure that I know of and rumors on everything from the BBC violating their contract agreement, to Eccleston fearing being typecast to being overworked.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-10 04:42pm

General Zod wrote:Where do you get the bit about Eccleston being demanding? There's nothing confirmed about his departure that I know of and rumors on everything from the BBC violating their contract agreement, to Eccleston fearing being typecast to being overworked.

Oh come on, he's referring to an actor by their first name. OBVIOUSLY he has the inside track on priviledged information. Do you think he meant to say 'it wasn't a bad move to NOT change it', or do you think the sentence makes sense to him as written?

The OG crowd are hilarious. They're what always happens to any group when they're so isolated and self-important. Their reviews chill me to the bone, to this very day.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-07-10 04:50pm

Just what are the OG crowd?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-07-10 04:53pm

Thanas wrote:Just what are the OG crowd?

Outpost Gallifrey, I'm guessing.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-10 04:57pm

Dude, go there. Look up reviews for hilariously bad novels, and compare to reviews of decent or good episodes. It's HILARIOUS. Typical 'if it's in our tiny elite niche it's good, if it's on mainstream anything regular people enjoy it's bad' disease.

Oh and I hope you like BO's pompous posting style and aping of actual critics. He's soft by OG standards.

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-07-10 04:58pm

Damn you Stark! I just re-read some of the OG reviews of Love & Monsters thanks to you!

just listened to the commentary on this episode. On it RTD chuckles at the absurdity of a steaming bucket being thrown at an alien to attack it and muses on the indignation of fans seeing this and that while the internet is buzzing he'll be in his hot tub. Personally I didn't mind the steaming bucket in the least. I do mind not knowing why it was there or what was going on but then RTD doesn't seem to think anything like plot matters so long as you've got snappy one-liners and soap-opera moments. I don't agree.

GRAGARGRARG!

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-07-10 05:00pm

Additionally, why does everyone have such a hardon for The Satan Pit? Am I the only one who was rather meh about the whole thing?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-10 05:10pm

Ohma wrote:Additionally, why does everyone have such a hardon for The Satan Pit? Am I the only one who was rather meh about the whole thing?

Well it does have hilariously photoshopped muzzle flashes.

It wasn't a great two-parter, but it was a shitload better than any we got later, and the Planet of the Ood episode basically pissed all over it (and not in a nice way).

It's always best to compare OG reviews for extra hilarity, though. You need a review, say one that totally misses the point of an episode to focus on a piece of meaningless trivia, and then you need to read a gushing review about how awesome a really fucking bad book is, because it's full of fannish nonsense and wistful staring. Then you need to take a step back and think about it until you go crazy.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2008-07-10 05:16pm

Ohma wrote:Additionally, why does everyone have such a hardon for The Satan Pit? Am I the only one who was rather meh about the whole thing?

Me.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2008-07-10 05:30pm

I wasn't exactly thrill by the Satan Pit either.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-07-10 06:39pm

I thought the Satan Pit stuff was good until we saw the monster. It was full of weirdness, fear, homages, adventure and potential storylines. The only bit that was cringeworthy was the dumb bit where the TARDIS fell into a crevasse and the Doctor was suddenly so sure it had gone forever for no reason at all. Aside from that and some of the dialogue, it was pretty damn good.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-10 06:44pm

Zuul wrote:I thought the Satan Pit stuff was good until we saw the monster. It was full of weirdness, fear, homages, adventure and potential storylines. The only bit that was cringeworthy was the dumb bit where the TARDIS fell into a crevasse and the Doctor was suddenly so sure it had gone forever for no reason at all. Aside from that and some of the dialogue, it was pretty damn good.

100% correct. The first part had excellent atmosphere but was very forced (lol TARDIS in hole), the second still had some great moments, but the monster and the whole setup became muddy and daft (lol TARDIS right there).

Really, the whole possessed-guy, space base, reluctant-captain, Doctor looking in spooky hole stuff was great. So much was missed though - the Doctor basically commits suicide over curiousity, and it's never even suggested that this was due to malign influence or some character flaw.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-07-10 10:31pm

Stark wrote:Dude, go there. Look up reviews for hilariously bad novels, and compare to reviews of decent or good episodes. It's HILARIOUS. Typical 'if it's in our tiny elite niche it's good, if it's on mainstream anything regular people enjoy it's bad' disease.

Oh and I hope you like BO's pompous posting style and aping of actual critics. He's soft by OG standards.

How do you watch the reviews without registering?

As for the Satan's Pit, I liked it because it had great atmosphere - it just felt epic and non-earthy. Also, for once the doctor didn't know everything, which also was great (though this might be more of a retroperspective, since S2 had way less off the omniscient doctor). The humor was also excellent, the perfect example being the "We must feed...you" part which always makes me crack up.

Furthermore, for some reasons, this always seemed to be the one episode where all actors just seemed to fit to the story and both Tennant and Piper played their roles perfectly. Coincidentally, the "stuff of legend" scene was the last scene Billie Piper filmed on the show and due to the following mediocrity in her successors it always leaves me wondering how S3 might have turned out if she hadn't left. (And I always wondered why she did leave - was it a decision on her part or was this RTD's idea?)

So much was missed though - the Doctor basically commits suicide over curiousity, and it's never even suggested that this was due to malign influence or some character flaw.

I am sorry, but I can't quite get what you are saying here. Are you talking about him letting go and falling down the pit? If so, I imagine the fact that he only had a few minutes left to breathe might have had something to do with it.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-10 10:37pm

It's still suicide. The whole deal with the 'zomg must go down, must jump, must look' thing being an unflattering part of human nature went nowhere (just like all the stuff about the beasts' origin), and the Doctor was not confident he'd survive the fall. However, any drama from this was totally ignored and we got the silly 'they could've just dropped him in the black hole ages ago' thing.

My problem is that that whole series of scenes were really good (Doctor and woman at bottom of lift), and then he falls and survives and they're just forgotten about, along with the sense of mystery and sinister stuff. I mean, he basically abandons a woman to die alone to satisfy his own craving for new experiences... nah, no drama there, let's move on to the GLOWING VASES.