Qui Gon dismisses blockade in Phantom Menace
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Qui Gon dismisses blockade in Phantom Menace
I have been thinking long about this line where he totally dismisses the fact that the Trade Federation has hundreds if not thousands of their ships blockading Naboo.
Most look at his statement as a sign that the Republic Navy if it wanted to could blast the hell out of the blockade and remove it if they wanted to. ROTS does not totally support this since the battle of Coruscant does not show this many ships but obviously the fleet would be spread out all over the Outer Rim.
I was thinking though that Qui Gon wasnt thinking of the ships in their threat or military power but at a more basic financial level.
The Trade Fed exists to make money. That is its whole reason for being. That being said every single one of those Trade Fed ships that is sitting on blockade is not out there moving goods and earning income. It is still costing money in upkeep but its doing nothing to put the Trade Federation in the black.
So Qui Gon dismisses the blockade probably because he considers the whole thing a massive bluff. The cost to the Trade Federation must be huge and every hour those ships are there is another day they lose money.
This theory is supported in one other way. Once the planet is taken the Fed sends away back to normal duties every since ship but one. They keep the bare minimum there to control the droids. This makes little sense since while yeah they have the surface they are totally vulnerable to attack by enemy ships. If Amidala had not been so high minded I would be willing to bet that using off-world financial assets she could have probably hired mercenary forces that could have easily taken out the lone droid control ship and ended the invasion with her checkbook instead of her rather dangerous strategy. Unless of course the Naboo are dirt poor or the state of affairs in the Galaxy means you couldnt find a single source willing to do some dirty work for cash.
Most look at his statement as a sign that the Republic Navy if it wanted to could blast the hell out of the blockade and remove it if they wanted to. ROTS does not totally support this since the battle of Coruscant does not show this many ships but obviously the fleet would be spread out all over the Outer Rim.
I was thinking though that Qui Gon wasnt thinking of the ships in their threat or military power but at a more basic financial level.
The Trade Fed exists to make money. That is its whole reason for being. That being said every single one of those Trade Fed ships that is sitting on blockade is not out there moving goods and earning income. It is still costing money in upkeep but its doing nothing to put the Trade Federation in the black.
So Qui Gon dismisses the blockade probably because he considers the whole thing a massive bluff. The cost to the Trade Federation must be huge and every hour those ships are there is another day they lose money.
This theory is supported in one other way. Once the planet is taken the Fed sends away back to normal duties every since ship but one. They keep the bare minimum there to control the droids. This makes little sense since while yeah they have the surface they are totally vulnerable to attack by enemy ships. If Amidala had not been so high minded I would be willing to bet that using off-world financial assets she could have probably hired mercenary forces that could have easily taken out the lone droid control ship and ended the invasion with her checkbook instead of her rather dangerous strategy. Unless of course the Naboo are dirt poor or the state of affairs in the Galaxy means you couldnt find a single source willing to do some dirty work for cash.
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Well, the Trade Federation is pretty huge from what I know of it. Blockading a planet costs money but, its not anything that would seriously drain their resources.
Also, any mercenaries she could hire the Trade Federation could just buy out. "The Queen hired you for 2 billion you say? We'll double that if you fight for us!"
Also, any mercenaries she could hire the Trade Federation could just buy out. "The Queen hired you for 2 billion you say? We'll double that if you fight for us!"
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I want to say that someone estimated that a full planetary blockade as dense as the portions we see would take something like 10,000 ships.
Even if we cut this down to 10% or just 1000 ships that is still a lot of ships not doing work.
I am thinking that Qui Gon was just being pragmatic and knew that being business men the Trade Fed has no stomach for the months if not years if would take to starve out a planet like Naboo.
Even if we cut this down to 10% or just 1000 ships that is still a lot of ships not doing work.
I am thinking that Qui Gon was just being pragmatic and knew that being business men the Trade Fed has no stomach for the months if not years if would take to starve out a planet like Naboo.
If you don't know the scale of the Trade Federation's operations, you can't easily make the assertion that the blockade cost them a significant amount of money in lost shipping.
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Qui-Gon does seem to have a low opinion of the Trade Federation's backbone. He may have felt that, if push came to shove, the Trade Federation would back down rather than anger the Republic or a pair of Jedi. The Old Republic Jedi were also fairly arrogant -- he may simply have dismissed the blockade because of "the Force."
For that matter, he may have really been concerned about the blockade and just been unwilling to appear uncertain in front of Obi-Wan -- or sound uncertain if the Trade Federation had the room bugged!
There's really no way of knowing what his motivations were aside from dialogue in this case -- of course, if the Old Republic had responded to the blockade by dropping ten times as many warships out of hyperspace around it, then we would have had a pretty good idea of exactly why he wasn't concerned. Which would've made a better movie in my opinion, albeit probably a much shorter one.
*Edit* I assumed this was a conversation on the Trade Federation ships -- while I vaguely remember the incident you're referring to, I can't remember where they were when he blew the blockade off.
For that matter, he may have really been concerned about the blockade and just been unwilling to appear uncertain in front of Obi-Wan -- or sound uncertain if the Trade Federation had the room bugged!
There's really no way of knowing what his motivations were aside from dialogue in this case -- of course, if the Old Republic had responded to the blockade by dropping ten times as many warships out of hyperspace around it, then we would have had a pretty good idea of exactly why he wasn't concerned. Which would've made a better movie in my opinion, albeit probably a much shorter one.
*Edit* I assumed this was a conversation on the Trade Federation ships -- while I vaguely remember the incident you're referring to, I can't remember where they were when he blew the blockade off.
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I don't get the impression that the TradeFed donuts are capable warships. In AOTC, there was a fleet of donut ships in orbit and the Republic ships apparently brushed them aside so easily that they were able to plunge straight down into the atmosphere and start deploying gunships before anyone on the ground even knew they were coming.
In the ROTS battle, it seems to be other types of CIS ships which are doing the heavy lifting.
In the ROTS battle, it seems to be other types of CIS ships which are doing the heavy lifting.
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The Federation ships were suppose to be converted freighters. The massive internal volume makes that very clear they are built to carry tons of stuff each. Even if the ship around Naboo were only 1% of all the ships in the Trade Federation's commercial fleet, that still means that every day those ships sit there doing nothing they are not making any money. 1% of all their profits gone is not something any businessman would look at lightly.
Qui Gon seemed to think that if it wasn't for the whole it 'legal' thing that the Republic could shut down their blockade very easily.
On a modern scale imagine what would happen to Union Pacific if they took 1% of all their train engines out of service and parked them running in the rail yard in say Salt Lake City. They are still using their daily amount of fuel and they still need the daily supplies for the crews of the machines(not to mention the pay for them) but none of them are pulling anything to make them money. The effort would not last very long before they'd put those trains back to use.
Qui Gon seemed to think that if it wasn't for the whole it 'legal' thing that the Republic could shut down their blockade very easily.
On a modern scale imagine what would happen to Union Pacific if they took 1% of all their train engines out of service and parked them running in the rail yard in say Salt Lake City. They are still using their daily amount of fuel and they still need the daily supplies for the crews of the machines(not to mention the pay for them) but none of them are pulling anything to make them money. The effort would not last very long before they'd put those trains back to use.
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Absolutely. Obviously, they're familiar with the concept of investment. Otherwise they wouldn't have, oh I don't know, fought a war. I find it laughable that they'd bemoan the Naboo blockade then turn right around and declare war on the Republic. Sure, they weren't expecting a protracted fight against an actual army, but the opportunity cost was still enormous; literally making the Naboo blockade insignificant in contrast. They clearly expected it to pay off immensely in the postwar galaxy.
Is that really how it happened? We know TF ended up in the Separatists, but the failure of their plot in TPM resulted in political censure, marginalising them which would have forced them into the arms of the Separatists.
I only dimly recall TPM, but wasn't the whole plot that the TF would help Sidious in return for political concessions from him? This actually seems pretty easy given what they say baout the TPM republic's weakness and corruption.
I only dimly recall TPM, but wasn't the whole plot that the TF would help Sidious in return for political concessions from him? This actually seems pretty easy given what they say baout the TPM republic's weakness and corruption.
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AotC seems to imply that they got off with a slap on the wrist, thanks to their army of lawyers, Darth Sidious and the Republic being made of fail. I don't know that they were exactly marginalized, but the original disputes which their abortive plot failed to remedy still existed, hence the secession.Stark wrote:Is that really how it happened? We know TF ended up in the Separatists, but the failure of their plot in TPM resulted in political censure, marginalising them which would have forced them into the arms of the Separatists.
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Also note that the donut ships were massively, visibly upgunned between AoTC and RotS, perhaps because of what happened at Geonosis.
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Considering the Death Star could be built in secret in just a few years 10,000 of those ships might be more like .001% of the Trade Federation fleet
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Really?Darth Raptor wrote:Absolutely. Obviously, they're familiar with the concept of investment. Otherwise they wouldn't have, oh I don't know, fought a war. I find it laughable that they'd bemoan the Naboo blockade then turn right around and declare war on the Republic. Sure, they weren't expecting a protracted fight against an actual army, but the opportunity cost was still enormous; literally making the Naboo blockade insignificant in contrast. They clearly expected it to pay off immensely in the postwar galaxy.
The get in bed with a Sith whose plan to their eyes fails badly. They get their trade powers restricted and have to fight incredibly lengthy battles in the court.
They clearly didn't expect their plan to fail. They believed that it's success would result in rewards from their shadowy backer.Timotheus wrote: Really?
The get in bed with a Sith whose plan to their eyes fails badly. They get their trade powers restricted and have to fight incredibly lengthy battles in the court.
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Plus by any reasonable metric it was the Neimoidians that failed, not the Sith (except for Maul, of course). Even their lack of a backup DC toilet bowl would have been okay were it not for Anakin. The plan was fine, they botched the execution. They were probably relieved that Sidious stuck up for them in the Senate like he did after that.
Timotheus wrote:
Yep and since the US Military designed and built the B-2 in secrecy we can all assume that Home Depot has its own aircraf carrier.
So...what you are basically saying is that you have no concept of scale(an aircraft carrier being much bigger than a B-2, and there are only a few places you could build one), resources(The US government having many more than Home depot) or that the TRADE FEDERATION VESSELS WERE CONVERTED FREIGHTERS AND NOT WARSHIPS and therefore it's a piss-poor comparison.
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To go further, there seems to have been only one significantly modified Trade Federation vessel(the droid control ship, which was left behind for the occupation of Naboo).
The AOTC ICS says that the TF vessels during the CW era were more warship orientated, as opposed to the basic "battleship-frieghters" of the Naboo blockade.
For all we know the majority of the blockading force had the SW equivalent of 23mms to stop, well, other freighters.
The AOTC ICS says that the TF vessels during the CW era were more warship orientated, as opposed to the basic "battleship-frieghters" of the Naboo blockade.
For all we know the majority of the blockading force had the SW equivalent of 23mms to stop, well, other freighters.
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In the novelisation, its explictly mentioned that the CIS ships were mere transports. No Lucrehulk battleships were present, suggesting that even the converted warships at Naboo was absent from Geonosis.Darth Wong wrote:I don't get the impression that the TradeFed donuts are capable warships. In AOTC, there was a fleet of donut ships in orbit and the Republic ships apparently brushed them aside so easily that they were able to plunge straight down into the atmosphere and start deploying gunships before anyone on the ground even knew they were coming.
In the ROTS battle, it seems to be other types of CIS ships which are doing the heavy lifting.
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Sarcasm fails in the face of the fact that we know they were building their own Death Star along with the rest of the Separatists.Timotheus wrote:Sea Skimmer wrote:Considering the Death Star could be built in secret in just a few years 10,000 of those ships might be more like .001% of the Trade Federation fleet
Yep and since the US Military designed and built the B-2 in secrecy we can all assume that Home Depot has its own aircraf carrier.
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The assumption comes from a raw power POV. The coreship alone generates as much power as a Venator or Victory class, and it has 3 other major reactors and a suite of minor ones. In terms of output, it is definitely in the star cruiser range. The question is how effectively it can channel that power to its guns, bu even if the rigging only allows them to throw 1/3rd of that power at the enemy they are still pretty potent. And we know that they were steadily upgraded with more and heavier guns to allow them to dedicate more of that power to the weapons.Darth Wong wrote:I don't get the impression that the TradeFed donuts are capable warships. In AOTC, there was a fleet of donut ships in orbit and the Republic ships apparently brushed them aside so easily that they were able to plunge straight down into the atmosphere and start deploying gunships before anyone on the ground even knew they were coming.
In the ROTS battle, it seems to be other types of CIS ships which are doing the heavy lifting.
That the other ships were more active and prolific is one of those facts that cuts both ways - it could be because the battleships are crap and they do most of the fighting, or it could be because the battleships are the heavy hitters and they are supporting them. Without more info about the battleships, we can't say.
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Then again, that power might be mostly dedicated toward hyperdrive jumps. The idea of adding more guns to the ship would be more difficult in execution than in description; if the ship's superstructure isn't strong enough to withstand the recoil, they simply can't put really big guns on the ship. Not without major structural upgrades as well.
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Why would it go to the hyperdrive? I would think most of it, if not all, would go to the regular sublights.Darth Wong wrote:Then again, that power might be mostly dedicated toward hyperdrive jumps. The idea of adding more guns to the ship would be more difficult in execution than in description; if the ship's superstructure isn't strong enough to withstand the recoil, they simply can't put really big guns on the ship. Not without major structural upgrades as well.
And the newer images show a large number of larger guns - ones larger then the Venator guns actually. So presumably they found a way around the recoil problem, either by modification, redesign, or the initial structure was sufficient. Given the acceleration stresses it would undergo and the fact it is mainly hollow, the structure would have had to be even stronger then dedicated warships already (owing to a reduced cross section), so it may be a bit easier. Regardless, he proof is in the pudding that they managed to fix it some way and mount numerous big guns.
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