Submissive Muslim Denied French Citizenship

[FSTargetDrone]

Hey, a link to the original!

Muslim woman deemed too submissive to be French

Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:31pm BST

By Estelle Shirbon

PARIS (Reuters) - France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes, a legal ruling showed on Friday.

The case will reignite debate about how to reconcile freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by the French constitution, and other fundamental rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.

Le Monde newspaper said it was the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected for reasons to do with personal religious practice.

"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," said a ruling by the Council of State handed down last month and sent to Reuters on Friday to confirm a report in Le Monde.

The Council of State is a judicial body which has final say on disputes between individuals and the public administration.

Married to a French national, the woman arrived in France in 2000, speaks good French and has three children born in France.

She wears a black burqa that covers all her body except her eyes, which are visible through a narrow slit, and lives in "total submission" to her husband and male relatives, according to reports by social services. Le Monde said the woman is 32.

The woman's application for French nationality was rejected in 2005 on grounds of "insufficient assimilation". She appealed to the Council of State, which last month approved the rejection.

In the past, nationality was denied to Muslims who were known to have links with extremist circles or who had publicly advocated radicalism, which is not the case here.

VIRGINITY ROW

The ruling comes weeks after a heated debate over whether traditional Muslim views were creeping into French law, prompted by a court annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.

In the case of the Moroccan woman, Le Monde suggested the Council of State had gone to the opposite extreme by rejecting the woman's beliefs and way of life rather than accommodating them.

"Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?" the newspaper asked.

The legal expert who provided a formal report on the case to the Council of State wrote that the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society," Le Monde reported.

"She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind," Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave wrote.

Le Monde quoted Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, as saying it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship.

"If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," Lochak said.

(Additional reporting by Gerard Bon; Editing by Ibon Villelabeitia)

[Singular Intellect]

My favorite question to those who constantly tell me that we have to be so lenient and accepting of other cultures in our country is "Why the fuck does our Canadian culture get a back seat to theirs?".

Frankly, I'm getting fucking sick of it. If you're hard working, honest and willing to speak our language and accept our culture, I welcome you to Canada with open arms.

But the instant someone tells me someone else's culture takes priority over mine in my own fucking country, I get pissed. That is complete and utter bullshit...I'm not going to visit or move to someone else's country and then expect them to conform to my way of living or beliefs.

I'm not being unreasonable; I apply the same standards to myself if I go another country.

[Darth Wong]

My favorite question to those who constantly tell me that we have to be so lenient and accepting of other cultures in our country is "Why the fuck does our Canadian culture get a back seat to theirs?".

Frankly, I'm getting fucking sick of it. If you're hard working, honest and willing to speak our language and accept our culture, I welcome you to Canada with open arms.

But the instant someone tells me someone else's culture takes priority over mine in my own fucking country, I get pissed. That is complete and utter bullshit...I'm not going to visit or move to someone else's country and then expect them to conform to my way of living or beliefs.

So it's either "they conform to us" or "we conform to them?" You can't see any other option?

I'm not being unreasonable; I apply the same standards to myself if I go another country.

And how many times have you done that? How many countries have you gone to which have a truly different culture?

[Singular Intellect]

My favorite question to those who constantly tell me that we have to be so lenient and accepting of other cultures in our country is "Why the fuck does our Canadian culture get a back seat to theirs?".

Frankly, I'm getting fucking sick of it. If you're hard working, honest and willing to speak our language and accept our culture, I welcome you to Canada with open arms.

But the instant someone tells me someone else's culture takes priority over mine in my own fucking country, I get pissed. That is complete and utter bullshit...I'm not going to visit or move to someone else's country and then expect them to conform to my way of living or beliefs.

So it's either "they conform to us" or "we conform to them?" You can't see any other option?

Not at all. But I do expect those who move here to meet certain responsibilities, like learning one of our primary languages, respecting our laws and being aware of our customs. Bullshit like wearing a veil for a drivers licence, not knowing a word of our languages after years of living here, or trying to weasel out of our laws by invoking your own personal set (either religious in nature or not) are things I don't find acceptable.

I'm not being unreasonable; I apply the same standards to myself if I go another country.

And how many times have you done that? How many countries have you gone to which have a truly different culture?

I've lived in Canada all my life and currently have no intentions of moving to another country. However, in the event I did move to another country where the majority language was non English and had a significantly different culture and customs, the responsbility is upon me to adapt to that country, not insist it to adapt to me. I chose to move there, after all. And if I don't like it, I should leave.

What's wrong with that standard?

[Kitsune]

Well, most of the board does want marriage to be primarily be a secular institution not a religious or cultural on.

We don't want parents to be able to deny their kids education in evolution and/or force creation in school because it is part of their culture.

If a man comes from a culture where it is acceptable to beat his wife, that is unacceptable by most western nation laws.

I am not sure what the right answer on this issue is but we do have the right to create some norms which we expect everybody to follow.

[Lusankya]

Not at all. But I do expect those who move here to meet certain responsibilities, like learning one of our primary languages, respecting our laws and being aware of our customs. Bullshit like wearing a veil for a drivers licence, not knowing a word of our languages after years of living here, or trying to weasel out of our laws by invoking your own personal set (either religious in nature or not) are things I don't find acceptable.

You know, if you'd bothered reading the article, you would have realised that this woman speaks good French and has not broken any laws. Sure, she's a recluse, but there's no law against that. The biggest issue that I can see is her ignorance of the right to vote, etc., but all you need to do to fix that is tell her about it.

I've lived in Canada all my life and currently have no intentions of moving to another country. However, in the event I did move to another country where the majority language was non English and had a significantly different culture and customs, the responsbility is upon me to adapt to that country, not insist it to adapt to me. I chose to move there, after all. And if I don't like it, I should leave.

What's wrong with that standard?

This woman isn't insisting that French culture adapt to her. And there's no particular moral imperative for her to change her way of living. She has no links to terrorist groups, and she's not publicly advocating radical Islam. She shouldn't be denied citizenship on the basis of her private activities.

And to be honest, so long as someone's acting in a moral (and legal) fashion, then

[Singular Intellect]

Well, most of the board does want marriage to be primarily be a secular institution not a religious or cultural on.

We don't want parents to be able to deny their kids education in evolution and/or force creation in school because it is part of their culture.

If a man comes from a culture where it is acceptable to beat his wife, that is unacceptable by most western nation laws.

I am not sure what the right answer on this issue is but we do have the right to create some norms which we expect everybody to follow.

Precisely my point. I see nothing wrong with expecting people who chose to move to a country to follow that country's rules and be aware of their customs. If you're not prepared to do that, then don't move there.

[Stark]

And to be honest, so long as someone's acting in a moral (and legal) fashion, then

Oh shit they got Lus!

Do the French also refuse citizenship to women heavily into sadomasochism and bondage?

[Kitsune]

Oh shit they got Lus!

Do the French also refuse citizenship to women heavily into sadomasochism and bondage?

I was just thinking about that.....what is the difference between the S&M submissive and a religious submissive

[Stark]

They use full stops, probably.

It seems likely that the issue here is that it's a) religiously motivated and b) very public. It's not like she just likes being chained up at home; everywhere she goes she's displaying this belief.

Y'know, because women in burqas should be banned or something. Oh wait.

[Singular Intellect]

Oh shit they got Lus!

Do the French also refuse citizenship to women heavily into sadomasochism and bondage?

I was just thinking about that.....what is the difference between the S&M submissive and a religious submissive

A religious submissive can be indoctrinated into that mentality as a child, argueably a form of severe abuse. While the sexual submissive mentality is one that most moral people argue would be a mentality devoloped at the very least as a consenting individual, and ideally as a relatively mature one.

[Lusankya]

See, the clothing I view more as a fashion choice. Nuns wear only marginally less than this woman, and are quite distinctive, but you don't see people going around saying "Ban habits," now, do you?

[Stark]

See, the clothing I view more as a fashion choice. Nuns wear only marginally less than this woman, and are quite distinctive, but you don't see people going around saying "Ban habits," now, do you?

They're not muslims in France?

[General Zod]

See, the clothing I view more as a fashion choice. Nuns wear only marginally less than this woman, and are quite distinctive, but you don't see people going around saying "Ban habits," now, do you?

Habits don't cover their entire face do they? The main argument I can see against burqas is the same one against masks in public places.

[Singular Intellect]

See, the clothing I view more as a fashion choice. Nuns wear only marginally less than this woman, and are quite distinctive, but you don't see people going around saying "Ban habits," now, do you?

So long as clothing choices don't affect basic things like facial identification, as opposed to some who think a veil counts as one.

[hongi]

I'm not being unreasonable; I apply the same standards to myself if I go another country.

If you moved to Saudi Arabia and stayed there for a while, you'd adopt or accept their attitude towards women?

[Darth Wong]

But I do expect those who move here to meet certain responsibilities, like learning one of our primary languages, respecting our laws and being aware of our customs.

The woman in question did learn the local language. As for "respecting our laws", what does that mean, exactly? We expect them to obey our laws or face punishment for failing to do so, but to "respect" our laws is a demand that most of our citizens would fail. How many people do you know who obey every traffic law even if they're pretty sure they won't get ticketed? As for "being aware of our customs", that sounds like a load of horseshit. Who said we have a single set of customs?

Bullshit like wearing a veil for a drivers licence, not knowing a word of our languages after years of living here, or trying to weasel out of our laws by invoking your own personal set (either religious in nature or not) are things I don't find acceptable.

None of that has anything to do with "our customs", the bit about language is irrelevant in this thread, and the other stuff has to do with being forced to obey the law, which no one is arguing here.

I'm not being unreasonable; I apply the same standards to myself if I go another country.

And how many times have you done that? How many countries have you gone to which have a truly different culture?

I've lived in Canada all my life and currently have no intentions of moving to another country. However, in the event I did move to another country where the majority language was non English and had a significantly different culture and customs, the responsbility is upon me to adapt to that country, not insist it to adapt to me. I chose to move there, after all. And if I don't like it, I should leave.

What's wrong with that standard?

It's bullshit. Obeying the laws is one thing, and learning the language is good. But the idea that you should conform to the local "customs" in any country you live in is utter horseshit. I was born in this country, raised here, lived here all my life, and I don't follow all of the popular "customs". Does this mean I don't belong here? What you're talking about is rabid-ass social conformism.

[Singular Intellect]

I'm not being unreasonable; I apply the same standards to myself if I go another country.

If you moved to Saudi Arabia and stayed there for a while, you'd adopt or accept their attitude towards women?

No, I wouldn't. And guess what...that's why I'm not moving there. Thanks for proving my point further.

[Kitsune]

The wearing mask aspect might be valid

[Darth Wong]

The wearing mask aspect might be valid

If it is, then it would be for practical reasons, not because it challenges a local "custom". Traditions and customs are last-ditch justifications for behaviours that cannot be justified any other way.

[Kitsune]

Well, I have never worn one and never plan to but a burqa does look like it would restrict vision.

[Stark]

If it is, then it would be for practical reasons, not because it challenges a local "custom". Traditions and customs are last-ditch justifications for behaviours that cannot be justified any other way.

Yeah, and frankly there's no law against running around your neighbourhood in a bright green wig with heavy stage makeup on. Sure, women in burqas can't enter banks etc, but they're unlikely to want to.

[Singular Intellect]

The wearing mask aspect might be valid

If it is, then it would be for practical reasons, not because it challenges a local "custom". Traditions and customs are last-ditch justifications for behaviours that cannot be justified any other way.

Given your wording there, I agree and therefore drop the 'customs' aspect. All my objections seemed to fall in the other catagories. *smacks self*

[Oskuro]

What I always wonder when I see women living by such restrictive rules is.... do they really like it? Or are they just indoctrinated to belive that's what they must do? Either way, if they don't have the intention to change, to "free" themselves, then there's little anyone can say about their choices.

I wouldn't see a problem with someone living their life as they see fit (be it by practising some religion, or being a leather-clad sexual slave), as long as it is their choice. But, with restrictive cultures, like the one from the woman in the article, the real problem would show up when said nationalized woman has children, and tries to force a lifestyle upon them that they might not agree to.

In my opinion, the whole denying nationalization based on culture is a bit pointless when regarding mature adults (who obey the laws and all that). Having social services step in because young girls are being kept as recluses aganist their own will, that would be something else, but that's not the case in this article.

[Patrick Degan]

Oh shit they got Lus!

Do the French also refuse citizenship to women heavily into sadomasochism and bondage?

I was just thinking about that.....what is the difference between the S&M submissive and a religious submissive

For one thing, the former gets a lot more enjoyment out of the experience.