Scimitar AND a Valdore vs. ISD

[Nathan F]

Who would have this?

[SirNitram]

Who would have this?

ISD. It's guns are simply vastly more powerful than both. A Lancer Frigate would make a far more interesting figure, as the Scimitar might be able to absorb it's fire.

[Nathan F]

Oh, yeah, definitely, the quad laser canons would not be nearly powerful enough.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Oh, yeah, definitely, the quad laser canons would not be nearly powerful enough.

Capital level laser = 6 megatons ala ICS. If a Lancer has twenty of them, thats 80 megatons. Assuming only half can come to bare on one ship at any time (either Valadore or Scimtar, it doesn't matter) it could still hti it with 40 MTs. Since these are anti-starfighter guns, they should at least be able to fire several times a second. Still the Lancer has shields designed to at least take on fighter scale torps, which can add up to shields in the range of low GT.

Although we don't know the firepower of Rom diruptors, going just on torps, they're packing 120 megatons of firepower per volley. We saw the Scimitar (NOT the validore, however) take dozens of torp hits while only losing 30% shields.

That is, if we toss aside the fact that the E-E/Scimitar collision was only in the KILOtons range, and still took away 70% of its shields.

Conclusion: Validore dies very fast. Scimitar may be able to hold its own against the Lancer, (please note their cloaks are USELESS against SW sensors) but the Lancer's shields may be too tough. Its a toss up.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oh, yeah, definitely, the quad laser canons would not be nearly powerful enough.

Capital level laser = 6 megatons ala ICS. If a Lancer has twenty of them, thats 80 megatons. Assuming only half can come to bare on one ship at any time (either Valadore or Scimtar, it doesn't matter) it could still hti it with 40 MTs. Since these are anti-starfighter guns, they should at least be able to fire several times a second. Still the Lancer has shields designed to at least take on fighter scale torps, which can add up to shields in the range of low GT.

Although we don't know the firepower of Rom diruptors, going just on torps, they're packing 120 megatons of firepower per volley. We saw the Scimitar (NOT the validore, however) take dozens of torp hits while only losing 30% shields.

That is, if we toss aside the fact that the E-E/Scimitar collision was only in the KILOtons range, and still took away 70% of its shields.

Conclusion: Validore dies very fast. Scimitar may be able to hold its own against the Lancer, (please note their cloaks are USELESS against SW sensors) but the Lancer's shields may be too tough. Its a toss up.

Why are their cloaks useless against SW sensors?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Capital-level lasers might not be the same as anti-figher batteries, esp. given that the Lancer is descibed as having weapons taken from TIE Bombers and modified, IIRC.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Capital-class lasers might not be equal to anti-fighter batteries, esp. when the Lancer's anti-fighter batties are described as being taken from the TIE Bomber's weapons and modified, IIRC.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Why are their cloaks useless against SW sensors?

I'm sure you've heard of Crystal Gravity Traps. If you have mass youwillbe found.

[Master of Ossus]

Why are their cloaks useless against SW sensors?

1. Objects in ST that are cloaked still have mass. SW sensors sometimes operate by detecting the mass of a ship.
2. Previously, only active scans have been fooled by cloaking devices. Passive systems like infrared, and even visible light, have sometimes been sufficient to detect a cloaked ST starship. There is no reason to assume that such attempts would not work on the Scimitar.
3. As shown in "Nemesis," ST cloaking devices do nothing to prevent psychic detection. In SW, sensors have EASILY been able to detect Force-users, indicating that SW sensors might also be able to detect cloaked ships in ST.

[Illuminatus Primus]

They're extremely rare.

Mostly because they appear to just project some sort of field that mimics the emissions recieved on one side to the other (whereas SW cloaks bend all signals around the ship and contain all emissions inside), while allowing emissions from the outside to still penetrate (why they can see in cloak). However, active sources such as heat and impulse drive wash will still be detectable.

The Scimitar might be able to sneak up on the Lancer to a point if the Valdore runs interference.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Eh, they detected manipulation/use/sensitivity in the Force.

Let's give it to them, not really a factor against the ships.

[Exonerate]

Corellian Corvett vs. Scimitar. Hehe. Cloaks aren't undetectable, but AFAIK, SW ships don't exactly run around with their gravity traps on...

[Master of Ossus]

Eh, they detected manipulation/use/sensitivity in the Force.

Let's give it to them, not really a factor against the ships.

I agree. Usually, I just say, "ST cloaks beat SW sensors," and then go from there to show that the advantage of a cloaking device does not significantly alter the battle. In this case, it's a little more difficult, because the ship involved is a frigate, but the central idea is still there.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I agree. Usually, I just say, "ST cloaks beat SW sensors," and then go from there to show that the advantage of a cloaking device does not significantly alter the battle. In this case, it's a little more difficult, because the ship involved is a frigate, but the central idea is still there.

Blah, fine let 'em have their cloaks, but thsi time it will effect the battle. The Lancer would probably need every shot to count if it's going to stand up the Scimitar.

Has the Lancer been used in any EU material (besides WEG), ya know stories or whatever. See if it gets shot at, so we could gauge its shields.

[Isolder74]

I agree. Usually, I just say, "ST cloaks beat SW sensors," and then go from there to show that the advantage of a cloaking device does not significantly alter the battle. In this case, it's a little more difficult, because the ship involved is a frigate, but the central idea is still there.

Blah, fine let 'em have their cloaks, but thsi time it will effect the battle. The Lancer would probably need every shot to count if it's going to stand up the Scimitar.

Has the Lancer been used in any EU material (besides WEG), ya know stories or whatever. See if it gets shot at, so we could gauge its shields.

The Thawn Trilogy. Thrawn used them to flack His Star Destroyers to make them Starfighter proof

[Mr Bean]

Track the Drive Emsisions, Look for the Heat Wave Signature, Lots of things that don't require Crystal Gravity Traps

CGT are used to find STATIONARY or driffting ships

[Kamakazie Sith]

Why are their cloaks useless against SW sensors?

1. Objects in ST that are cloaked still have mass. SW sensors sometimes operate by detecting the mass of a ship.
2. Previously, only active scans have been fooled by cloaking devices. Passive systems like infrared, and even visible light, have sometimes been sufficient to detect a cloaked ST starship. There is no reason to assume that such attempts would not work on the Scimitar.
3. As shown in "Nemesis," ST cloaking devices do nothing to prevent psychic detection. In SW, sensors have EASILY been able to detect Force-users, indicating that SW sensors might also be able to detect cloaked ships in ST.

1 - How often is sometimes? I would speculate that once the Scimitar started firing on them from behind her cloak it would become one of those sometimes. With a warp field in place would mass be detectable?

2 - When has this occured? Are you refering to STVI? I believe there is a reason to assume that such attempts would not work on the Scimitar.....Geordi specifically stated that there were no detectable emissions coming from the Scimitar. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't any emissions, but are the emissions that are being emitted sufficent enough that SW sensors can detect them?

3 - Fascinating. Though this technology sounds extremely rare. Do you have more information, like a quote?

[Master of Ossus]

1 - How often is sometimes? I would speculate that once the Scimitar started firing on them from behind her cloak it would become one of those sometimes. With a warp field in place would mass be detectable?

2 - When has this occured? Are you refering to STVI? I believe there is a reason to assume that such attempts would not work on the Scimitar.....Geordi specifically stated that there were no detectable emissions coming from the Scimitar. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't any emissions, but are the emissions that are being emitted sufficent enough that SW sensors can detect them?

3 - Fascinating. Though this technology sounds extremely rare. Do you have more information, like a quote?

1. Sometimes indicates that it is limited to special technology.

2. There is no reason to assume that Geordi's quote refers to emissions that SF vessels do not normally track for (ie. gravitons, infrared) which have regularly detected cloaked ships.

3. If you'll read the TPM novelization, it shows quite clearly that Darth Maul easily and quickly modifies his little droids to scan for people emitting a presence in the Force. It took little time, no effort, and was available to extremely small droids.

[Kuja]

Has the Lancer been used in any EU material (besides WEG), ya know stories or whatever. See if it gets shot at, so we could gauge its shields.

The Thawn Trilogy. Thrawn used them to flack His Star Destroyers to make them Starfighter proof

And Rogue Squadron,

[Keevan_Colton]

Capital-class lasers might not be equal to anti-fighter batteries, esp. when the Lancer's anti-fighter batties are described as being taken from the TIE Bomber's weapons and modified, IIRC.

I cannot remember where but I recall it was mentioned in one of the books I read that the Lancer class's quad laser turrets were of a similar style to the falcons.....

[Connor MacLeod]

I've heard the lancer's guns are both the same as the falcon's quad lasers (Essential Guides are my best bet, or maybe WEG material) and as well as the TIE Bomber (Rogue Squadron 1). I suspect the former is more accurate - perhaps in Post-Endor times warlords had to scavenge weapons systems from other vessels to repair their larger ships.

Anyhow, its probable they have at least fighter-scale lasers (low kiloton ra nge in other words). Offensively and defensively we have 2 major comparisons to draw upon:

The first is from Rogue Squadron, where 22 Y-wing proton torpedoes (these were slow moving, short ranged torpedoes originally used in ground attacks - a single squadron with these torpedoes was stated to be able to more or less reduce an entire volcanic island - the base of ah Imperial outpost - to molten slag.) are used to destroy the Frigate If we assumed proton torpedoes were at least comparable to Slave-1's concussion missiles that means it takes 4,224 megatons to destroy said frigate (the 22 torpedo salvo not only knocked down the shields, but completely destroyed the vessel.)

The second example is not as cut and dried, but its also would appear to result in potentially higher figures. In "The Last Command", I believe The Wild Karrde squares off against one of two Lancer frigates while aiding Samuel Gillespee against the Empire. It was indicated (IIRC) that the Frigate was comparable to the Karrde in firepower (which packs 3 capital rated single barrel TLs, IIRC) - and the Wild Karrde's stats indicate its shields and armor are able to easily withstand fighter scale laser and (i think torpedo) attack - meaning the Lancer should packing more than fighter-scale laser weapons. Also, it should suggest rough comparison between offensive and defensive capabilities with the Wild Karrde.

As I said, this suggests that Lancers are far tougher than the former example does (suggesting high Megaton/low GT sustained firepower) - but this seems rather excessive for its anti-starfighter role. Perhaps Thrawn upgraded the Lancers so they have better chances against starships (at lest ones of comparable size - Corvettes and Frigates.)

[Illuminatus Primus]

3. If you'll read the TPM novelization, it shows quite clearly that Darth Maul easily and quickly modifies his little droids to scan for people emitting a presence in the Force. It took little time, no effort, and was available to extremely small droids.

The Dark Side Sourcebook and other sources indicate these are Sith-specific droids of unique make. This technology may not be readily available nor deployed on many other probe droids.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

4,224/64 = 66 photorps to kill the lancer. That doens't give the Lancer alot of room to breathe.

And if we assume the guns are "Falcon quads" than the odds of a Lancer victory are slimmer. After all thats only 80 kts, not a whole bunch compared to what the Roms will be dishing out....

[Ender]

The ISD can just sit there until both have shot their load, then spray shots all over to kill them.

The lancer, while more interesting, should die, unless we are going by Wong or somebodies numbers. Though it has 20 Quad guns that use a Tie Bomber targeting system, not tie guns. It's guns are probably similar to those on the TFB, though smaller and probably with a bit more punch since not so much is dedicated to shielding.

[Illuminatus Primus]

132 photon torpedoes, minimum assuming all-direct hits.

Photo torps aren't direct-force like proton torpedoes.

I think the Scimitar's best chance is hope it can charge up the medusa gun early, sneak up in cloak and hope it isn't seen, and fire the medusa gun at the Lancer while its combat shields are down and hope the exotic construction of the Lancer doesn't largely negate the medusa gun's affects.