SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK VI

[PeZook]

The "imminent attack" wasn't, though, since it would need the non-existent MES KKV constellation, so there was plenty of time to talk about space demilitarization.

That would still lead to nuclear war.

1.) UAR reaffirms it's "infinity plus 1" declaration from earlier.

2.) MESS refuses to abide by this, and puts a satellite full of KKVs over UAR; and the UKB refuses to de-orbit the KKVs it has over UAR already.

3.) ???

4.) Global Thermonuclear War.

That's where you propose "If you don't launch KKVs, we agree to reduce our nuclear arsenal by 30%, and if you withdraw your SSNs and reduce your conventional navies, I won't keep bombers on constant alert."

Or some such.

[Mr Bean]

Who exactly did Sea-Skimmer attack and with how many missiles?

By my caculations if he wants to claim 6 missiles a day since the game started he gets a max of 8760 missiles never mind hiding and transporting all those rockets. But lets say he makes 8760, that kind of production speed makes quality assurence hard, lets say 5% failure rate, 438 misfires or drop early.

8322 left, except there has to be production slow-downs some-time unless you people are frigging perfect. Rather than take another 10% off the top I'll just say he has 8,000 missiles tops to play with. Also not all ground crews are created equal, not all of them are going to get their rockets off before the response comes. Lets just say 8,000.

So 8,000 missiles spread over his country, and Zor and the RT had responded to Sheppards nukes by nuking the UAR, several countries nuked the UAR
Any not launched in the first few minutes would have been lost.

So who did the UAR shoot missiles at(We know who they nuked) and who? If they have 8,000 missiles to spread over 30 possible targets not counting the distant IRT.

[MKSheppard]

So who did the UAR shoot missiles at(We know who they nuked) and who?

I asked skimmer about this. He said "everyone", which I assume to be "not UAR allied"

[Shroom Man 777]

So who did the UAR shoot missiles at(We know who they nuked) and who?

I asked skimmer about this. He said "everyone", which I assume to be "not UAR allied"

Screw it. I think the two of you lost most of your nukes from lobbing it at one another.

How else would nukophiles get it on with each other?

[MKSheppard]

Any not launched in the first few minutes would have been lost.

Uhm, no. 8,000 TLAMs on four pack launchers (as historical for BGM-109G) means 2,000 launchers. Even if we assume a lot of them are reloads, that still leaves several hundred launchers, which are very highly mobile, and can hide under highway underpasses during nuclear strikes and then move out and launch afterwards -- look how hard it was to track down SCUDs in GW1, which were larger than a GLCM vehical.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Hey Shroom, your being paged.

[Mr Bean]

Uhm, no. 8,000 TLAMs on four pack launchers (as historical for BGM-109G) means 2,000 launchers. Even if we assume a lot of them are reloads, that still leaves several hundred launchers, which are very highly mobile, and can hide under highway underpasses during nuclear strikes and then move out and launch afterwards -- look how hard it was to track down SCUDs in GW1, which were larger than a GLCM vehical.

First thanks for the missile, it's preformance characteristics were important, my airforce has a goodly chance of engaging that kind of missile let alone the SM-2's, the SM-3's and of course my S-300 and crown jewel the S-400's.

By my count re-reading the thread, close to 100 megatons of nukes were dropped on the UAR, it might be highly mobile, but Saddamstain is still a island. By my count close to 40 odd devices were used on the UAR plus "several hundred" lets say 400 VX armed RT missiles.

Zoria went full bore on Saddamstian, hell the MRLS launchers the Zorian army had can hit most of the UAR. Not sure if the Shrina Republic spent any time hitting the UAR.

Point being the UAR got hit with a gird by grid targeting of close to ten thousand tons of VX plus nukes. Plus conventional Zorian attacks, plus whatever the Shrina's did. Even if it's highly the way Zor wrote it is they were going for broke, shooting anything they could hit with everything they had.


Shepnukstain by comparison does not have a ton over 2,000 which was not directly targeted by the Mess.

[Shroom Man 777]

We had thousands of SCUDs.

Bear:

SKYNET ANSWERS!

[Mr Bean]

See I'd love to redo in the game in story form, but the movie references like that forces me to think I'd have to edit the fuck out of the story to prevent it from becoming one long string of inside jokes.

[Shroom Man 777]

Dude, the game is over. We're all dead. We're all in hell.

If YOU had YOUR WAY, Shroomania would never get mentioned in the SDN World story

[Mr Bean]

Dude, the game is over. We're all dead. We're all in hell.

If YOU had YOUR WAY, Shroomania would never get mentioned in the SDN World story

Shroomia works great, except when he goes from outright crazy into jumping the shark territory.

I intend to give us a nice fitting eulogy.

[Beowulf]

Your count is probably off Bean. The TXAF TU-160s would have each hit the UAR with 12 MT, and there was about 3 dozen of them that were mission ready at that time. Comes out to 432 MT of love from TXAF bombers alone. Plus there's the Victoria's fighter wing, Wilkonia's bombers (another 6 MT of love from each of them) which give another 170 MT of love (probably, anyway). Wilkonia's submarine force, which mass launched Tomahawks (another 6 MT of love). TXA Quickstrikes(hypersonic glide vehicles boosted by SRMs) would have added another 48 MT of love, at priority, must be dead now, targets. There's TXN submarines, with more nukes. And TXN surface ships, with more nukes. And the TXN CSGN, with even more nukes. There's not a ship in the TXN fleet that did not have a couple nukes aboard it.

And there's parts that I'm sure I'm missing from the MESS SIOP, but it doesn't matter too much. There's still a shitload of nukes coming the UARs way, from the MESS alone, not counting the FUN's contribution to this clusterfuck.

Second: It doesn't matter whether the UAR has infinity+1 airspace. The planned TXAF kinetic weaponry would never have gone over the UAR, until the balloon went up. Careful manipulation of the orbit would have assured this. The MESS doesn't care if the UAR and Bean go to war, particularly, so it wouldn't have gone global.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Dude, the game is over. We're all dead. We're all in hell.

If YOU had YOUR WAY, Shroomania would never get mentioned in the SDN World story

And neither would the Duchy of Langley, for that matter. I mean, LELOUCH MOTHERFUCKING LAMPEROUGE, damn it. That should basically sum it up without going into some of the finer, less sane details.

[MKSheppard]

By my count re-reading the thread, close to 100 megatons of nukes were dropped on the UAR, it might be highly mobile, but Saddamstain is still a island.

Per the rules you've posted each time a game thread starts; Saddamistan is an Imperium and has 1 million square kilometers of land.

If we take 100 megatons and assume each weapon is 225 kt (a sweet spot according to stu); that means 444 nukes were expended.

Plugging that into Nuclear Calculator by Mr Wong, we get a near total fatality number for airblast of 1.7 km (remember, the launchers will be highly hardened). This is about 9 km2. This means that the 100 megatons of weapons expended only affects 3,996 square kilometers.

If we go up and assume 1 MT minimal per weapon; that's 100 weapons, and an affected area of 2,290 square kilometers.

It's even worse when you consider VX, which doesn't have the huge area effect of nukes. Saddamistan is large enough for his mobile launchers to be dispersed to survive any strike and still retalitate with a high degree of assurance.

EDIT: This also you know, applies to Stas' Cobalt bombs...1 million square km is a biiiig place...

[Sea Skimmer]

By my caculations if he wants to claim 6 missiles a day since the game started he gets a max of 8760 missiles never mind hiding and transporting all those rockets. But lets say he makes 8760, that kind of production speed makes quality assurence hard, lets say 5% failure rate, 438 misfires or drop early.

That’s six Tomahawk cruise missile clones per day starting after about six months, and no, quality control on that kind of production rate would not be hard at all. Fucking building them at a constant rate would in fact improve quality because everyone knows what they are doing and the line doesn’t stop and start all the time, personal turnover is lower ect…. This is 1970s technology upgraded with some newer stuff, the computers they put in cars today are more advanced, so are some cell phones, and they mass produce those with very low failure rates to the tune of thousands per day. What’s more then entire cost of producing those missiles was only about 7 billion dollars.

Transportation is easy, in fact my AEGIS destroyers could transport 1/4th of the missiles already without a single added cost.

and BTW Saddamistan doctrine called for using nuclear armed MiG-25s and F-22s along with SSK dropped 100 megaton mines to blast through coastal defences to give the missile swarm a better chance.

So 8,000 missiles spread over his country, and Zor and the RT had responded to Sheppards nukes by nuking the UAR, several countries nuked the UAR
Any not launched in the first few minutes would have been lost.

What fucking nonsense, the UAR launched first, and even with hundreds of nukes used you can’t even remotely begin to cover all my territory, 10,000 tons of VX is fucking nothing spread over an entire nation.

Now you want to talk about unreliability, how about those ‘thousands’ of SUCDS that have liquid fuel rocket motors and require twenty plus highly trained men to fuel and operate that got pulled out of nowhere. A Tomahawk is wooden round, SUCDs still blow up on launch like V-2s all the time. In fact you can’t keep a SCUD fueled long term so it would be impossible to have shot so many off in direct reply to a UAR first strike.

I’m not even going to bother with the shear absurdly of designing and deploying every aspect of an orbital weapon system so quickly.

First thanks for the missile, it's preformance characteristics were important, my airforce has a goodly chance of engaging that kind of missile let alone the SM-2's, the SM-3's and of course my S-300 and crown jewel the S-400's.

Your crown jewel is an absurd waste of money; the best defence against cruise missiles is wallpapering the country with cheap systems because no matter how far your SAM can reach you can’t accomplish jack shit if your radar can’t see the missile flying 25 feet above the ground just over the horizon.

By my count re-reading the thread, close to 100 megatons of nukes were dropped on the UAR, it might be highly mobile, but Saddamstain is still a island. By my count close to 40 odd devices were used on the UAR plus "several hundred" lets say 400 VX armed RT missiles.

40 nuclear devices would barely be enough to hit all my population centers, let alone industry, military bases, and missile launchers hiding all over the place. Did you fucking miss the fact that Saddamistan has the exact territory of New Guinea? As in it is nearly 1,500 miles from end to end with a land area of 786,000 square kilometers.

[MKSheppard]

Your count is probably off Bean. The TXAF TU-160s would have each hit the UAR with 12 MT, and there was about 3 dozen of them that were mission ready at that time. Comes out to 432 MT of love from TXAF bombers alone. Plus there's the Victoria's fighter wing, Wilkonia's bombers (another 6 MT of love from each of them) which give another 170 MT of love (probably, anyway). Wilkonia's submarine force, which mass launched Tomahawks (another 6 MT of love). TXA Quickstrikes(hypersonic glide vehicles boosted by SRMs) would have added another 48 MT of love, at priority, must be dead now, targets. There's TXN submarines, with more nukes. And TXN surface ships, with more nukes. And the TXN CSGN, with even more nukes. There's not a ship in the TXN fleet that did not have a couple nukes aboard it.

I think you forgot the nuclear-tipped SAMs that were in use by at least one MESS member. And I know that you guys never went for high yield devices; because the majority of your nuclear work was done by the LoneStar Republic, which focused more on smaller devices which could be delivered by tactical aircraft and capable of fitting into VLS tubes for submarine launch, etc. This places an upper limit on how powerful each of your devices is individually.

Let's say for convience's sake you have about 800 MT of firepower; at an average of 300 kilotons each, that's about 2,600~ nuclear warheads which sounds like a lot; but really isn't enough when you consider how spread out they are between different MESS states and launch platforms...it's entirely concievable that MESS nuclear armed units only have a few devices on hand, enough to launch a punishing nuclear first strike, but cannot sustain the nuclear tempo past that opening salvo.

By contrast, the UAR's arsenal was:

Shepnukistani Nuclear Arsenal

170 x Mark Sevens - 50 MT Devices. Due to the cutbacks in the Shepnukistani bomber force; there were enough Mark Sevens for both the primary attack wave and enough to equip the follow up attack waves, taking into account expected losses.

Sure, using TSAR BOMBA as your primary attack weapon is inefficient, but it means one bomb = most of a major urban area = toast; as it can start fires out to 58 km, cause widespread destruction to 26 km, and near total fatalities to 10 km....that's about 300 km2 of land totally blown away from each bomb dropped...

200 x Mark Tens - 10 kt devices. Primarily used in ASW depth bombs, RIM-190 SM-5s for fleet air defense, but mainly in nuclear tipped blackbeards. Majority were not used until the closing stages of the war, as the original planned attack plan for them (mass cruise missile attack on Byzantium) was cancelled by President Sheppard. Later, General O'Leary ordered an attack to expend all remaining warheads.

915 x Mark Elevens - 1 MT Devices. Unified Strategic Thermonuclear Device. Used for general purpose gravity bombs (the first couple dozen ones); and 70-mile ranged stand-off missiles (SRAM Strategic)

50 x Mark Twelves - 40 kt. Unified Light Tactical Thermonuclear Device. Planned replacement for the Mark Ten, total production was planned at around 400. Production was repeatedly deferred in favor of the Mark Thirteen.

921 x Mark Thirteens -- 225 kt. Unified Heavy Tactical Thermonuclear Device. Deployed on 250 mile-stand off missiles (SRAM Tactical)

2,256 deliverable weapons, 9,626 MT of deliverable firepower.

Saddamistan Nuclear Arsenal (talked with Skimmer over this)

40 x Shepnukistani-supplied Mark Sevens, 50 MT each.
25 x Shepnukistani-Supplied Mark Sevens (rebuilt with HEU Jackets) - 100 MT each.
67 x Saddamistani 40 kt Devices (current inventory; undergoing remanufacture into 1 MT devices)
660 x Saddamistani 1 MT Devices.

792 deliverable weapons, 5,162 MT of deliverable firepower.

UAR Total
3,048 deliverable weapons, 14,788 MT of deliverable firepower

By the way, the maximum total megatonnage of nuclear firepower ever achieved was around 23,000 MT in the sixties. So Shepnukistan ALONE has 41% of the nuclear firepower that everyone in the sixties had.

This was the optimal "doomsday" loadout for a Shepnukistani manned bomber:

1 x Mark Seven (50 MT) as primary urban destruction weapon in forward bomb bay.
6 x SRAM-Strategics (1 MT) as secondary urban destruction weapons in aft bomb bay.
14 x SRAM-Tacticals (225 kt) as Defense Suppression Weapons on external pylons.

As noted, there was a huge surplus of weapons for Shepnukistan broken down as:

Mark Seven: 1.85x of full loadout for all bombers
SRAM-Strat: 1.66x of full loadout for all bombers
SRAM-Tac: 0.72x of full loadout for all bombers

So while the SRAM-Tactical defense suppression missiles were in short supply, the other weapons were more than in enough supply to be dispersed to secondary and even tertiary dispersal sites by SAC munitions crews; allowing for protracted and extended nuclear salvoes, which were put to excellent effect by SAC crews commanded by Acting CINCSAC, Lieutenant General Marina O'Leary.

Additionally, some 37,000 tons of chemical and biological weapons were available to SAC at the outbreak of the war; although most of them were in storage bunkers, and hence only about 2,500 tons were available immediately to SAC loadmasters.

[Mr Bean]

Proving once again why we should have set up ground rules for this stuff from the beginning. Anyway, I should have followed this shit closer from the start to ensure shit worked better than it did.

At least my highball estimate of 3200 total nukes was close to the money.

[MKSheppard]

from an upcoming segment of Sixty One Minutes by the BBC:

"Did President Sheppard consider any other options other than a full pre-emptive strike, Ms. O'Leary?"

"Why yes he did, Bill. I suggested to him that we immediately put our bomber force on airborne alert as a precautionary measure. He vetoed it; due to the enormous expense involved in putting on any meaningful airborne alert, and also due to the fact that only a small fraction of SAC's bombers would be airborne at any time."

"There was also a suggestion raised by another General, whose name I don't remember now, to launch a pre-emptive strike against the launch pads that the MESS would have to use to launch their KKV constellation into orbit; but this was rejected by the President on the grounds that it would only delay their program by a year if concrete penetrators were used, and would result in a war anyway."

"Another suggestion was to begin enforcing our 'infinity plus one' over our borders and destroy any space asset which strayed over our borders, MESS or FUN. This was also rejected, as it would lead to a war anyway."

"I can't fault the logic that the President used -- that a war with the MESS was inevitable, and that whoever struck the first blow would win. And naturally, because the UAR should win, we should be the one to strike that first blow."

[MKSheppard]

By my count re-reading the thread, close to 100 megatons of nukes were dropped on the UAR

I've jsut been doing the math, and about 1,500 megatons on average was in each of the three ARC HEAVY packages, and about 700 megatons were on the sole ARC LIGHT package.

[Mr Bean]

See that's the thing one someone goes in for global thermonuclear war vs you, it's just does not sound as impressive

Did I say 100 Megaton? I mean 100 Mega-Megaton's

Regardless so the UAR dropped upwards of 50 Gigatons of nukes, the Mess& Fun dropped just under one. See this is the issues with two day wars, everyone's already doing aftermath when they should be doing global war.

[Beowulf]

Tian Xia nuclear arsenal:
Bombers:
1300 WT-5

Fighters:
F-14
144 WT-5
F-35
240 WT-5 (bomb configuration)
120 WT-2(bomb configuration)

Surface ship:
FFG
24 WT-5 (2 each)
DDG
72 WT-5 (4 each)
CG
12 WT-5 (4 each)
CSGN
64 WT-5 (32 each)
SSN
112 WT-2 (16 each)
SS
36 WT-2 (6 each)

Army:
336 WT-5 (144 in ATACMS, 192 in Quickstrike)

Total:
2048 WT-5 (500 kT nuclear warhead)
268 WT-2 (250 kT nuclear warhead)

2316 deliverable weapons, 1091 MT of deliverable firepower.

Loadout of manned aircraft:
Tu-160
24 AL-ATACMS with WT-5 warhead 800km range
or
24 AALM with WT-5 300 km range
or combination of the two.
F-14
1 AL-ATACMS
or
2 AALM
F-35C
2 WT-5 gravity bombs
F-35B
2 WT-2 gravity bombs

All surface ships are armed with NATACMS-ER, which has a range of 500km.

Total megatonnage seems low, compared to Shepnukistan, but 8.5 GT of his firepower is in the Mk 7 devices. And it's Tian Xia alone, not counting other MESS nations. Actualy number of deliverable weapons is about equal. Some of the weapons will likely never end up in use, but the majority of them will.

[CmdrWilkens]

2) Of the two nations only Skimmer has an effective quick-launch system. For Shep he has to spool all of his bombers and fighters up, get them airborne, form them up and then somehow launch them in co-ordinated waves against the MESS...all of that takes time.

That's the advantage of a pre-emptive first strike. I can disguise it as leadup to an exercise; and once they're in the air, I can then redirect them as necessary from orbiting command posts -- if I had based my entire force around missiles, I wouldn't have been able to respond near instantly to the FUN's attack against me by retasking some bombers from the attack on Canissia.

Also, I could have launched quite a few early and had them orbiting their fail safe points; once again an advantage of manned bombers.

All of which would immediately entail counter-launches by the MESS. We are watching your entire airspace and if you honestly think we wouldn't begin scrambling with unplanned and unannoucned exercises then its the height of delusion. Shepnukistani bombers in the air is more than enough to get all of us on DefCon 2 or 3 depening upon how crazy you've been acting lately. Also the more you preposition your forces the later Skimmer has to strike or risk detection of the strike giving us enough warning to nuke you on the ground to pre-empt your pre-emption.

3) I'm still working through exactly what the numbers work towards but here are some problems. For the RB-73s there was no chance for a response which ignores that we've spent the last several years, and as Ipointed out, billions in creating a sucessor system for C$I to AEGIS and our current ground setup. I've already shown we can track the RB-73s and we've got mr than enough SM-3s to hit them.

The RB-73 is not a simple ballistic missile coming in on a predictive track. It is a manned manouvering orbital bomber. Ballistic missiles don't suddenly accelerate or make unpredictable dives. To intercept an incoming orbital bomber which can detect enemy SAM/ABMs coming up towards it; and can change it's angle of dive and speed in response to cause the SAM/ABMs to miss, you need a really really really big missile; far more energetic than SM-3s. You don't have that. SM-3s are actually quite very marginal as far as ABM goes; there's a reason the Navy is looking into dedicated ABM VLS cells for CG(X) which are freaking huge.

In fact, I'd probably say the only feasible defense against the RB-73 was Stas' own SPIRALs, armed with Space to Space missiles instead of Space to Ground Missiles, which is what I had the one lost fall to; a R-900 Space Interception Missile by NPO Vympel fired by a MiG-105 SPIRAL.

Alternatively I need an attack swarm that just gets one lucky hit. The downside of your damn bombs being on hari triggers is that i don't have to get a perfect strike I only need to get lucky once. Moreover I'm using a targeting and tracking radar that they have never seen before. I've made it about as bluntly clear as I can for a secret weapons program that the MESS is in the process of completely replacing every radar installation across the baord with the next generation, your counter-detection technology wouldn't even know to register as being tracked and conversely if you are actively trying to track incoming threats then you just provide a better targeting solution.

At a minimum I'm figuring that's 104 fighters against 35 bombers

Wrong. Even the mighty Soviet Union could only afford about 2 to 4 active-duty interceptors per regiment of 25-40 interceptors ready to go in five minutes. Same thing with carriers - only a few aircraft are actually ready in alert five, ten, or fifteen status at any one moment.

I have at least 90 minutes warning by your own admission. From takeoff through transit I would be tracking your ass the whole way and launching progressively more. With a single flight BARCAP from each of the two decks at sea and a flight of ground alert F-22s and ground alert F-16s I think 104 is pretty generous since I'm not adding any extra fighters that could easily get airborne within an hour nor am I adding any fighters from the CAGs which are shoreside and in barracks.

The B-1C and RB-1D cruise at Mach 2 at 50,000 feet; that's 1320 MPH, or 22 miles a minute.

The deep reaches of Canissia are only 500-700 miles away from bombers based in lower Shepnukistan; that's a trip of 23 to 32 minutes.

A circular route from North-Eastern Shepnukistan which circles around the IRT and approaches Wilkonia's Northeastern coastline is 2,000~ miles; and my bombers fly that in ninety minutes.

To reach the LSR while avoiding Wilkonia means a trip of 2,500~ miles -- as a bonus; this flightpath also ends up being able to hit northern Tian Xia at the same time they hit the LSR -- that's in 114 minutes. Hitting Tian Xia's middle needs a 3,000 mile trip; that's 136 minutes.

Of course, this doesn't take into account the fact that I might have ordered my bombers to violate the Bear Republic's (FUN) airspace to save time after the RT's attack on Shepnukistan with hypersonic missiles.

So you have in the best case (Tian Xia), a mere 2 hours and 16 minutes to generate all of your aircraft and get them into the air; which means you won't be able to get them all into the air; you'll have to pull AIM-120s, etc from weapons storage bunkers, load them onto pylons, and fuel the planes up -- and this is where things hit the little snags -- what happens if you don't have enough weapons loading carts to handle all your planes at once? Do you have enough fuel tankers to load all your planes at once? Do you even have enough personnel on duty or recallable on rapid order to fuel them all at once?

And so on.

Great...for the first bomber off the racks. If you want to do more than launch them at us one at a time you have to form them up, get them flying at different rates from different directions and do it all sequentially otherwise the entirey of available LSR/TX/W air defenses could be brought to bear in succession. Every bomber you get into the air has to wait for the trailing units to get up, form up, probably refuel, then launch. Even for the short distance (and note i'm only talking here about your attacks against TX/LSR/Wilkonia) you are looking at a minimum of 2 hours (90 minutes transit plus 30 minutes of launch refuel and forming up) until you are in launch range. I've got more than 300 interceptors available and TX and LSR have more...guessing that I only get 1/3 in the air with two hours of warning when 96 of those are on a ship and pretty damn easy to launch with that much wanring.I don't get just 10/15 minutes of warning I get at least 1.5 hours to get everyone airborne so the entire carrier wing won't just be ariborne they will be airborne and briefed...oh es AND the SAMS for all of those units would be looking airborne. That's 4 Kirovs, 4 Ticos, and 12 Burkes. Hell I almost have more HULLs than you have bombers to send my way. I've got more than 1000 SM-2 and SM-3s along with close to 400 S-300s sitting at leat a half hour away from any viable launch point for your bombers. Its a fucking missile trap even BEFORE you get within range of my, albeit limited, ground defenses.

Again you've got 5 wings of 35 bombers and at LEAST 5 targets. With 35 or fewer bombers per target and 2 hours or more of warning each along with tracking and engagement radars you've never experienced before (in addition to those you have) your bombers are coming through too confined a space and in too few numbers against what can be thrown against you.

the MGM-191s would have had to come through the exact same hell only more units would be on alert.

Actually, no. The MGM-191s are programmed to come in well after the initial destruction of your air defenses by the RB-1Ds and B-1Cs as they penetrate.

The UAR, like Slade's US in the TBOverse and Phong's IRT defeats enemy air defenses by nuking them with long range nuclear tipped stand-off missiles. Did you spend a lot of expensive money on burying hardened landlines and in multiply redunant C3I complexes and radars? Because if not, your system will begin to fall apart as node after node go up in mushroom clouds.

There's a good reason I didn't spend much on air defenses -- I looked at the amount of money I would have to spend to defeat an equivalent attack from SAC; decided that it would cost so much that I'd be reduced to just a semi-defensive role like Phong's IRT; which did go for a heavy IADS route.

Alternatively the vast majority of my IADS is located well the fucks offshore which you never thought to target in your inital wave fo RB-73s (maybe you got the primary center south-east of Columbia but that leaves New Horizons completely operational along with my backup centers and..oh yeah all my C4I assets at sea that form the first line. Your nuke-tipped first wave doesn't make it if your bombers don't penetrate and again, as above, the nuke fires the -191s 'saw" was FAR more likely to be detonations of your bombers coming in against either my CAGs or the SAMs the ships launched. You may have a SAC sized airforce but SAC only had one nation to attack, you have a half dozen and there is an attrition to diversion of effort that we coldn't hope to match otherwise. By splitting your attention there is no way more than 2-3 squadrons of bmbers are goig againt each nation and the vast majority of them are likely to be shot down going against the kind of missile and fighter swarms they are likely to face (and which I'll note you didn't even bother trying to write them as penetrating) well offshore. If you tried the same trick as against TF-23 half your munitions are going up by concurrent detonations when they hit the CVBGs we have out patroling and if you try closer launches its that many more fighters to deal with.

Your first wave against Canissia would almost certianly have carved up corridors just like you suggest...only about 30 minutes later every air field, control tower, and depot you have was gonna be a piece of charred cinder when the sub-launch counter-attack followed on. You get one shot with your bombers before Shepnukistan gets turned into a cinder by the counter-strike and the number of bombers you have split amongst all of your targets means that you don't have the numbers to eve approach parity with the defenders let alone gain enough strength to brute force your way through to more than a handful of succesful launches (which would, admitteldy be catastrophic). Moreover if you want to claim a chem-bio attack 48 hours after the first strikes then you can only be doing it with rocks given the tonnage unleashed against Shepnukistan.

[MKSheppard]

Your explanation of those 2,000~ nukes coming from the LSR is complete and utter bullshit.

Unlike you, I've actually calculated how much nuclear weapons I can get from the Calvert Cliff's complex plus the Oralloy gained from decommissioning my SSNs early on in the game.

Each RBMK-2000 generates 5,400 MW of thermal energy, the key parameter in plutonium production; and I had three of them; for 16,200 MWt.

By contrast, Hanford Washington, the US' premier fissile material production plant had at it's maximum peak in the late fifties, early sixties, had nine reactors running at 25,800~ MWt.

Lonestar's never declared a nuclear program as large or as extensive as the historical one, so where's the 2,000 nukes coming from? Unless that IS pretty much the entire MESS deterrent, plus or give a thousand or so from other MESS national programs.

Hum. You know. Skimmer declared an underground submarine base big enough to hold a Typhoon class SSBN.....

[Coyote]

Quit arguing over a dead world and let's figure the groundwork on the new one.

[Lonestar]

Lonestar's never declared a nuclear program as large or as extensive as the historical one, so where's the 2,000 nukes coming from? Unless that IS pretty much the entire MESS deterrent, plus or give a thousand or so from other MESS national programs.

I did, in fact, declare a Breeder reactor program shortly after the "Intel guy shows El Presidente the RBMK pictures" post.