Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[EdBecerra]

As to the Colonial Hell producing its own weapons, the world is already stretched to its limit gearing up to a war economy at home, without trying to overcome the challenges of building permanent sites (you will not be producing any good steel in an army tent) and manufacturing in Hell. Mining could be done with proper imported equipment, but it would have to be processed on Earth.

You'd be surprised... watch what Paki gun and bladesmiths can do with 18th and 19th century gear.

Import a few hundred of them, give them basic tools, and turn them loose. In twenty years, Hell will have become the NRA's wet dream...

Shit, man, does concrete even cure in Hell?

PS. To Ed, welcome to the wretched hive of scum and villainy known as SD.net!

I believe they answered that in an earlier chapter - the notation about the "concrete disease" that will be plaguing some of the first live sorts who infiltrated Hell - the particulates in the atmosphere literally BECOME concrete when they come into contact with the moisture of the human lung.

Give this war a year or more, and you'll see permanent buildings going up. Not just bunkers quonset huts, but genuine permanent construction.
(Unless the author decrees otherwise, of course)

And thank you. It's nice to be here.

Ed.

[Darth Wong]

You'd be surprised... watch what Paki gun and bladesmiths can do with 18th and 19th century gear.

Import a few hundred of them, give them basic tools, and turn them loose. In twenty years, Hell will have become the NRA's wet dream...

Mind you, 18th and 19th century metallurgists had reasonably clean air to work with, more than two thousand years of iron-working and iron mining before them, and reliably Euclidean geometry in their localized space-time.

They can build solid structures in Hell (the demons already do), but it would take quite a while to build up any kind of local industry for machined products.

[JN1]

All the Russian tanks were refitted with remote-control turret-top machine guns before deployment to hell based on American experience. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

British Challys have also tested remote machine-gun mounts, as the pics below illustrate. I would imagine that the tanks of the balance of 1st AD and 3 Division might have had these retrofitted.

[EdBecerra]

You'd be surprised... watch what Paki gun and bladesmiths can do with 18th and 19th century gear.

Import a few hundred of them, give them basic tools, and turn them loose. In twenty years, Hell will have become the NRA's wet dream...

Mind you, 18th and 19th century metallurgists had reasonably clean air to work with, more than two thousand years of iron-working and iron mining before them, and reliably Euclidean geometry in their localized space-time.

They can build solid structures in Hell (the demons already do), but it would take quite a while to build up any kind of local industry for machined products.

Uh, that's sort of my point, Darth.

I've seen Paki gunsmiths replicate a Brit rifle starting with nothing but an anvil, a charcoal forge, a smithing hammer and a few files. Along with two or three apprentices to work the bellows to keep the forge at a nice red glow.

It's really rather scary.

Rate of production is low, of course, but you overcome that by the sheer number of smiths in an area.

This obviously won't happen overnight. It won't even happen over the course of a year. But give me five years and a number of Paki or Afghani smiths, and the BASICS of basics (they get to take an anvil, a hammer, et cetera), and one or two of the mines the baldricks already have going, and I could give you... oh... 1840's era weapons. And in ten years, WW2 era weaponry. (The ammo would have to be imported, of course...)

As is, within the first five years? Ferguson rifles. Good for sniping, and reliable. Can't win a war with them, perhaps, but they'd bleed the baldricks to death on one front while the regular army hammers them on another.

Ed.

[JN1]

I've seen Paki gunsmiths replicate a Brit rifle starting with nothing but an anvil, a charcoal forge, a smithing hammer and a few files. Along with two or three apprentices to work the bellows to keep the forge at a nice read glow.

I've read that these Kyber SMLEs are not always that reliable. Frankly given a choice I'd prefer to be firing an example from Enfield Lock or Ishapore.
Btw, guys 'Paki' is generally used as a racial slur in the UK and may be seriously offensive to some people who visit this board.

[Wyrm]

You'd be surprised... watch what Paki gun and bladesmiths can do with 18th and 19th century gear.

There isn't an excess of pumice and hydrogen sulfide floating around the air to fuck up the steel with impurities on 18th-19th century Earth. You need an environment reasonably sealed against the Hellish ambience to forge good steel.

Basically, you'll need a building.

I believe they answered that in an earlier chapter - the notation about the "concrete disease" that will be plaguing some of the first live sorts who infiltrated Hell - the particulates in the atmosphere literally BECOME concrete when they come into contact with the moisture of the human lung.

The lung-shit is not necessarily good concrete, though, which is required to build on. Good concrete needs to be cured at carefully controlled temperature and humidity over the better part of a month. It might be literally easier to build on stone foundations.

However, I do see Hell Point's large aircraft hangers being used as curing tents to make large blocks/piers/ect of concrete for the first generation of buildings. Gonna be a bitch moving them around, though.

[Phantasee]

However, I do see Hell Point's large aircraft hangers being used as curing tents to make large blocks/piers/ect of concrete for the first generation of buildings. Gonna be a bitch moving them around, though.

Well, someday we'll have legions of orcs to provide the labour to do anything like that. Might take a while to move the shit, but it's not gonna break our backs.

We are enslaving the orcs, right? None of that silly business of bringing democracy to the liberated?

[EdBecerra]

Btw, guys 'Paki' is generally used as a racial slur in the UK and may be seriously offensive to some people who visit this board.

Ah. Didn't know that. I'm from the USA, Colorado to be precise, and it's not really seen as an insult where I live.

Out here, we chop words as short as can be, simply because we don't feel like going to the extra effort of pronouncing two syllables over one. But now that I know, I'll refrain from using it here.

Ed.

[EdBecerra]

However, I do see Hell Point's large aircraft hangers being used as curing tents to make large blocks/piers/ect of concrete for the first generation of buildings. Gonna be a bitch moving them around, though.

Well, someday we'll have legions of orcs to provide the labour to do anything like that. Might take a while to move the shit, but it's not gonna break our backs.

We are enslaving the orcs, right? None of that silly business of bringing democracy to the liberated?

Eh. It's unfortunately traditional... the Phillipines, Puerto Rico, Southeast Asia... *shrugs*

Rarely actually WORKS, but we're still obligated to try to bring democracy.

And has it occurred to anyone that the river of lava is a PERFECT energy source?

I don't know if it's possible to run a pipeline or a cable through one of the portals, but if it is, that river's just BEGGING for a few hundred steam plants along its banks. We'd start importing Icelandic engineers by the thousands for their expertise in geothermal electrical generation.

Hey, Hell might even solve the peak oil problem!

Ed.

[Darth Wong]

Mind you, 18th and 19th century metallurgists had reasonably clean air to work with, more than two thousand years of iron-working and iron mining before them, and reliably Euclidean geometry in their localized space-time.

They can build solid structures in Hell (the demons already do), but it would take quite a while to build up any kind of local industry for machined products.

Uh, that's sort of my point, Darth.

I've seen Paki gunsmiths replicate a Brit rifle starting with nothing but an anvil, a charcoal forge, a smithing hammer and a few files. Along with two or three apprentices to work the bellows to keep the forge at a nice red glow.

It's really rather scary.

I think you missed the point: the environment is extremely hostile. You can filter out all the hostile impurities in the air and water, but that requires filtration equipment and sealed buildings. And you can't easily compensate for the fact that space-time is so strangely curved.

Rate of production is low, of course, but you overcome that by the sheer number of smiths in an area.

This obviously won't happen overnight. It won't even happen over the course of a year. But give me five years and a number of Paki or Afghani smiths, and the BASICS of basics (they get to take an anvil, a hammer, et cetera), and one or two of the mines the baldricks already have going, and I could give you... oh... 1840's era weapons. And in ten years, WW2 era weaponry. (The ammo would have to be imported, of course...)

As is, within the first five years? Ferguson rifles. Good for sniping, and reliable. Can't win a war with them, perhaps, but they'd bleed the baldricks to death on one front while the regular army hammers them on another.

Ed.

If the ammo has to be imported, then what's the point of building a local infrastructure? All you can do is make crappy low-grade weapons out of bad high-sulphur steel: weapons which could easily be imported at a much better quality level along with the regular ammo shipments you would need.

And has it occurred to anyone that the river of lava is a PERFECT energy source?

You need a supply of clean water to make that work well. The most straightforward way to convert heat into electrical energy is to use heat exchangers, turbines, and a working fluid: typically fresh water.

[EdBecerra]

I think you missed the point: the environment is extremely hostile. You can filter out all the hostile impurities in the air and water, but that requires filtration equipment and sealed buildings. And you can't easily compensate for the fact that space-time is so strangely curved.

Good point, I hadn't considered the odd geometry of Hell.

As for the air and the water... I don't know. If Belial was able to get away with building forges, albeit ones for copper, bronze and the like, then iron and steel should be possible.

Unlimited manpower IS available. (Though you run into all that nasty "rights of the individual" stuff, and that silly "slavery is morally wrong" issue... )

War won't be over for a while, but it might be entertaining to see how far Hell can be terraformed.

Hmm... wonder how much of the climate is caused by volcanism, and how much is caused by supernatural fiat? If any, that is.

If nothing else, certain areas of Hell might make nuclear fission a practical, reliable and cheap form of power - if Heaven's ever taken successfully, just evacuate all of Hell to Heaven and use Hell as the ultimate toxic waste dump.

(Then again, what WILL we do with the orcs? Bother... there has to be SOME way we can make a buck off the place!)

Hey! Didn't Abigor say something about Earth not being the first world they'd encountered? Wonder if that means you can make Earth > Hell > Someplace-other-than-Earth portals? We've already seen Hell > Earth > Hell portals that basically allowed you to travel hundreds (thousands?) of miles by taking a single step to Earth, then back to a different place in Hell. That's gotta be the penultimate in quick travel. Say, a Hell portal in New York, one in Tokyo. You step from NY to Hell to Tokyo, and do it in five minutes or less.

Definitely money-maker potential there.

heh.

Ed.

[Darth Wong]

Good point, I hadn't considered the odd geometry of Hell.

As for the air and the water... I don't know. If Belial was able to get away with building forges, albeit ones for copper, bronze and the like, then iron and steel should be possible.

Iron and steel should be possible, but it would have a lot of impurities. The brittleness would be a real problem with guns; less so for things like tridents and largely ceremonial armour.

Unlimited manpower IS available. (Though you run into all that nasty "rights of the individual" stuff, and that silly "slavery is morally wrong" issue... )

War won't be over for a while, but it might be entertaining to see how far Hell can be terraformed.

Hmm... wonder how much of the climate is caused by volcanism, and how much is caused by supernatural fiat? If any, that is.

With a giant 700km wide caldera volcano in the middle, it's pretty hard to imagine how it wouldn't be a dominant environmental feature.

If nothing else, certain areas of Hell might make nuclear fission a practical, reliable and cheap form of power - if Heaven's ever taken successfully, just evacuate all of Hell to Heaven and use Hell as the ultimate toxic waste dump.

Nuclear fission is already a practical and reliable form of power, and it won't get much cheaper just because we can dump the waste into Hell.

(Then again, what WILL we do with the orcs? Bother... there has to be SOME way we can make a buck off the place!)

Come on man, they've been enslaved for three million years! Don't they deserve a break?

Hey! Didn't Abigor say something about Earth not being the first world they'd encountered? Wonder if that means you can make Earth > Hell > Someplace-other-than-Earth portals? We've already seen Hell > Earth > Hell portals that basically allowed you to travel hundreds (thousands?) of miles by taking a single step to Earth, then back to a different place in Hell. That's gotta be the penultimate in quick travel. Say, a Hell portal in New York, one in Tokyo. You step from NY to Hell to Tokyo, and do it in five minutes or less.

Definitely money-maker potential there.

Definitely That's why I posted my FedEx "We'll go through Hell to deliver your package on time" idea a while ago. Unfortunately, it also opens up doors for terrorists to be a lot more dangerous than they are now. High-tech equipment is hard to come by in the mountains of Afghanistan, but if the identifying sign of portal-adepts is delusional insanity ...

[EdBecerra]

Hey! Didn't Abigor say something about Earth not being the first world they'd encountered? Wonder if that means you can make Earth > Hell > Someplace-other-than-Earth portals? We've already seen Hell > Earth > Hell portals that basically allowed you to travel hundreds (thousands?) of miles by taking a single step to Earth, then back to a different place in Hell. That's gotta be the penultimate in quick travel. Say, a Hell portal in New York, one in Tokyo. You step from NY to Hell to Tokyo, and do it in five minutes or less.

Definitely money-maker potential there.

Definitely That's why I posted my FedEx "We'll go through Hell to deliver your package on time" idea a while ago. Unfortunately, it also opens up doors for terrorists to be a lot more dangerous than they are now. High-tech equipment is hard to come by in the mountains of Afghanistan, but if the identifying sign of portal-adepts is delusional insanity ...

Well, it's not just FedEx... if portals can be opened between other planets, NASA and ESA are going to want to get in on the act as well.

Hmm.. A portal from Earth to Hell to Mars... why does that sound oddly familiar?

Wonder if there's a Union Aerospace Corporation in this reality?

UAC - we do our best to bring demons to you!
(now would you like to hire our security?)

Ed.

[fnord]

If nothing else, certain areas of Hell might make nuclear fission a practical, reliable and cheap form of power - if Heaven's ever taken successfully, just evacuate all of Hell to Heaven and use Hell as the ultimate toxic waste dump.

Nuclear fission is already a practical and reliable form of power, and it won't get much cheaper just because we can dump the waste into Hell.

Especially when your waste inventory is less than a tonne of fission products only, no actinides, per GW-yr. You'd be looking at less than 150 L of volume taken up for said fission products after processing, with it becoming less radioactive than the ground you dug it out of inside 300 years.

Hell's atmosphere may pose bigger problems for turbines, whether open or closed cycle, but since that problem appears to have been sorted in-story for mobile turbines in the tens of MW range (ie, aircraft engines - someone correct me if I've cocked up the power), it should be sortable for stationary turbines for in-Hell reactors. I leave building the power grid in Free Hell to someone far more skilled.

The above comments don't of course apply for Earth, where the environment is generally more benign (except downwind of erupting volcanoes, initiating nuclear devices, houses of parliament, etc).

That all said, why use Hell as a waste dump? The non-demonic inhabitants (orcs, dead humans) may be a little pissed off about you taking periodic dumps into their home.

[Chris OFarrell]

You know, it would be bloody funny after Earth Nukes something if somehow Satan finds out through the Great Herald CNN or something that the dead human mage 'Einstein' came up with the most powerful magic the humans possess.

So he has the poor guy pulled out of the swamp or something and demands he work with his mages to make such powerful weapons of his own, *generously* giving him a full brass working shop and a heap of Naga to get started and demanding results within one week...

[EdBecerra]

Especially when your waste inventory is less than a tonne of fission products only, no actinides, per GW-yr. You'd be looking at less than 150 L of volume taken up for said fission products after processing, with it becoming less radioactive than the ground you dug it out of inside 300 years.

Oh. Damn me, I'm still taking shortcuts inside my head, and expecting people to see them.

Okay...

a) Evac Hell. REALLY evac it. Humans, even demons and orcs. Only leave those who deserve it, like that clown who got the multiple life sentences mentioned earlier on in the fic.

b) Build CHEAP reactors. Build them in Hell, that is. Cut safety codes everywhere. We don't NEED safety, as the grunts doing most of the work inside these reactors will be the same vermin we've already determined aren't worthy of being allowed to leave Hell. Build reactors that make Chernobyl look like 21st century technology. Your only goal is to make power cheaply. If they leak, let them. It's not like they'll affect anyone - or anyPLACE - that matters.

c) Sit back and reap profit.

d) Repeat with other problems. Love Canal? Drain it into a Hell portal and let everyone move back. Toxic industries such as the Union Carbide plant in India? Move 'em to Hell, staff 'em with prisoners and a few execs (paid enough to risk their skins, or bribed with 'time in Hell served' offers) to run them. So on and so forth.

There are likely plenty of problems I don't see, but humanity's been doing this already - the English empire loved dumping its problems overseas, and it did work, for the most part.

It's going to be interesting to see how things play out AFTER Hell and Heaven have been taken.

Ed.

[Darth Wong]

Where the hell do you plan to evacuate 90 billion humans? The sheer scope of this operation makes the construction of fully regulated nuclear power plants seem trivial.

Besides, if you build crappy power plants, the poorly treated coolant water will cause the turbines to fail prematurely. Not bothering with seismic assessments (especially near a caldera volcano) invites catastrophic failures of all sorts. Reliability will be poor, plant life will be short, and you'll have other problems, like the desirability of opening thousands of permanent portals all around the world. You will have to pay truly exorbitant amounts of money to get anyone to work there. Construction would be a nightmare in the shitty environment; a power plant is a very elaborate construct.

[Guardsman Bass]

Why evac Hell? It's not really a problem for the "native inhabitants" (demons and dead humans), and if you could do something about all the fucking dust, the "planet" (assuming it actually has a planet-like shape, and isn't something really weird like a disc or a torus) isn't too bad.

That raises some questions - is Hell a "round" world? Or, for that matter, do the planes that fly high enough to get into the clear air over the dust layer covering Hell's surface see anything like a "sun" in the sky, or is it simply omnidirectional red light?

[EdBecerra]

Where the hell do you plan to evacuate 90 billion humans? The sheer scope of this operation makes the construction of fully regulated nuclear power plants seem trivial.

To Heaven, of course, just as soon as we put down Yaweh and his minions. It'll take some time to move everyone, obviously.

Heaven will become the new Caribbean, I think. Just with us in charge. Heh.

Ed.

[Guardsman Bass]

Where the hell do you plan to evacuate 90 billion humans? The sheer scope of this operation makes the construction of fully regulated nuclear power plants seem trivial.

To Heaven, of course, just as soon as we put down Yaweh and his minions. It'll take some time to move everyone, obviously.

Heaven will become the new Caribbean, I think. Just with us in charge. Heh.

Ed.

Is Heaven actually a good place? We haven't seen any of it other than the Temple Palace in which Yahweh has his throne, so we have no idea - it could be a barren wasteland under a clear blue sky for all we know.

[EdBecerra]

Why evac Hell? It's not really a problem for the "native inhabitants" (demons and dead humans), and if you could do something about all the fucking dust, the "planet" (assuming it actually has a planet-like shape, and isn't something really weird like a disc or a torus) isn't too bad.

Y'know, I hadn't even thought of the topology? Wonder if you can deduce it from the distortions noticed when they made up the nuclear strike map?

That raises some questions - is Hell a "round" world? Or, for that matter, do the planes that fly high enough to get into the clear air over the dust layer covering Hell's surface see anything like a "sun" in the sky, or is it simply omnidirectional red light?

Now THAT would be fascinating. Does Hell even have a "night"? And if so, how? Is Hell just a dimension? Or one world in an entire other universe?

Oh, damn. Now I'm NEVER going to get to sleep tonight, for trying to answer that one in my head.

Botheration.

Oh, good lord - I just realized... you CAN revive shows with "dead" stars in this reality.

*shudders*

Just as soon as someone figures this out, Trekkers world-wide will assemble a "Save DeForest Kelly and James Doohan from Hell!" Strike Force....

Ed.

[Guardsman Bass]

Christ, that means more Elvis, assuming he's not a gibbering wreck when they pull him from the muck . . .

[nickolay1]

That raises some questions - is Hell a "round" world? Or, for that matter, do the planes that fly high enough to get into the clear air over the dust layer covering Hell's surface see anything like a "sun" in the sky, or is it simply omnidirectional red light?

This won't be very hard to determine. Since the gravitational acceleration is hell is very close to earth's, it would seem feasible to attain escape velocity with equipment presently in use on earth. The fastest solution might be to modify a mobile ICBM for the purpose. Maybe Russia could donate a Topol-M or two. Then, they could just drive in and launch.

[EdBecerra]

Is Heaven actually a good place? We haven't seen any of it other than the Temple Palace in which Yahweh has his throne, so we have no idea - it could be a barren wasteland under a clear blue sky for all we know.

Mmm... good point. I'd been thinking of it as the descriptions from the bible and the koran... the land of milk & honey where life is easy, food's for the taking, you can lie around without effort, et cetera. A garden, basically, designed around our needs and desires.

But the story doesn't explicitly state that is true, does it?

Bugger, now I'll have to reboot my brain.

Ed.

[bilateralrope]

like the desirability of opening thousands of permanent portals all around the world

Wouldn't the portals and the shoddy reactors cause a lot of nasty stuff leaking from the plants, through the portals, onto earth ?