SDNWorld Redux - Casting Call & Planning

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

My suggestion: *snip*

Under this system duchies end up with a GDP of 1.25 trillion dollars, despite having a population of only 7.5 million people (!!). Not only that, but the duchy now only has 62.500 km^2 in territories, a mere fifteen fleet points, and only 63 planes.

If you ask me, it requires further tweaking.

Er.. Duchies get less than that. They get 5/16 trillion. I guess some tweaking is in order.

[MKSheppard]

Shepistan practices a very liberal death penalty -- at last count, it executed around 8,000 people each year, give or take a few hundred.

Executions are carried out in sealed airlocked rooms and with cans of RAID bug killer. This is denounced by many in the international community as cruel and unusual as it takes a bit for the RAID to kill the guy (it's a very low level nerve agent); but nobody is willing to do anything, since RAID is also highly useful for sanitation.

[Siege]

Er.. Duchies get less than that. They get 5/16 trillion. I guess some tweaking is in order.

Ah, right. I don't know how I made that particular error, it should of course be 0.3125 trillion, or 312 billion. Which is still an awful lot for a country of 7.5 million people, but the point stands - you can't do sweet fuck-all with a nation that small. Again: I don't mind playing one of the little guys, but I'd still like to be just north of 'totally insignificant'.

EDIT: Shep, killing people with roach killer poison is... So uncannily like you .

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Er.. Duchies get less than that. They get 5/16 trillion. I guess some tweaking is in order.

Ah, right. I don't know how I made that particular error, it should of course be 0.3125 trillion, or 312 billion. Which is still an awful lot for a country of 7.5 million people, but the point stands - you can't do sweet fuck-all with a nation that small. Again: I don't mind playing one of the little guys, but I'd still like to be just north of 'totally insignificant'.

Probably ought to revise the population down to 3-4 billion. And yeah, given my own experience living in such a country, insignificant is an understatement.

[PeZook]

Oh, come on. Sweden has 334 billion by PPP and a population of 9 million.They're not going to be flattening small countries with massive carrier-based strikes, but nobody can say they're insignificant.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh, come on. Sweden has 334 billion by PPP and a population of 9 million.They're not going to be flattening small countries, but nobody can say they're insignificant.

Sweden has stayed out of world affairs for the most part since Napoleon however.

But it depends how one plays the country I guess. They certainly will put up a heck of a fight if attacked by say the Red Army.

[Lonestar]

We need some points set up for underway replenishment ships and 'Phibs.

I don't necessarily mean big American 'Phibs either, they could be in the Mistral, Canberra, Foudre, or Bay Class range, all of which are significantly cheaper to procure and operate than USN 'Phibs. In the last game they were used primarily for the inevitable disaster relief anyway, rather than attack.

[Siege]

Oh, come on. Sweden has 334 billion by PPP and a population of 9 million.They're not going to be flattening small countries with massive carrier-based strikes, but nobody can say they're insignificant.

Sweden also has 449,964 km^2 in territories rather than a mere 62,500 km^2 (less than the state of West Virginia!) and significantly more than 60 aircraft and the equivalent of 15 Navy points.

Just to be on the safe side of absolutely clear, I don't desire a gigantihuge kingdom, but a Duchy that amounts to nothing with a little bit of nothing sprinkled on top isn't exactly what I'm gunning for either.

[PeZook]

Sweden also has 449,964 km^2 in territories rather than a mere 62,500 km^2 (less than the state of West Virginia!) and significantly more than 60 aircraft and the equivalent of 15 Navy points.

Just to be on the safe side of absolutely clear, I don't desire a gigantihuge kingdom, but a Duchy that amounts to nothing with a little bit of nothing sprinkled on top isn't exactly what I'm gunning for either.

This is why I'm in favor of giving Duchies more land area and toys at the start.

[Shroom Man 777]

Let's just stick with 300-500 billion as a baseline for the Duchies.


Since Shepistan is a Cold War ravaged shithole and if it was totally isolated, it would be like North Korea... and since Shep and I will be best friends forever (:D) I say I WILL have a Uranium for Food program!

He gives me enriched uranium, copious amounts, and I give him food. I also give him agricultural materials... like roach killers.

[Beowulf]

Land area will probably have to be tweaked, I'll admit, but the GDP/population figures seem to be roughly right on. Sweden doesn't have the equivalent of 15 fleet points. They've got 5 submarines and less than a dozen corvettes. It's well more than what Duchies were getting in the last game. I'll admit that Sweden does have significantly more than the ~30 aircraft my proposal allows Duchies though.

[Raj Ahten]

Around $300-500 billion isn't insignificant. South Africa's GDP is in that ball park I believe. That's enough to be a regional player, especially if you are surrounded by third world states. It should also be enough for a nuclear program and fairly modern weapons.

[Siege]

Around $300-500 billion isn't insignificant. South Africa's GDP is in that ball park I believe. That's enough to be a regional player, especially if you are surrounded by third world states. It should also be enough for a nuclear program and fairly modern weapons.

I agree that $300-500 billion isn't bad at all - I've got no beef with the proposed GDP's. To take your example of South Africa though, that country has a population of 43 million. With a GDP that high and a population that big it's easy to see how one can be a regional player. With a population of 7 million however (EG around Finland/Sweden) that becomes another matter entirely. It gets worse when you compare territories: again, Duchies get 62.500 km^2, whereas South Africa covers 1,219,912 km^2 - that's more than an Imperium!

So, to recap: I think the GDP's proposed by Beowulf are pretty much perfect. Populations could perhaps do with a slight boost (but could also be compensated against something else if players want a bigger pop so we could also leave them be). Territories are definitely off though. Perhaps the size of polities kingdom and lesser could be computed by taking .66 instead of .5 of the previous (EG kingdoms get .66 of the territories of a tsardom, principalities get .66 that of a kingdom, etc.).

I've got no real problem with the size of the navies (though 240 for Imperiums sounds a bit high), but the number of planes could definitely do with a boost as well.

[Setzer]

Why don't we just appropriate a certain amount of the GDP for the defense budget, and base our militaries off what other countries with similar budgets have?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Oh, come on. Sweden has 334 billion by PPP and a population of 9 million.They're not going to be flattening small countries with massive carrier-based strikes, but nobody can say they're insignificant.

I'd be willing to support doubling the average population for Duchies, in fact, I think it's a pretty bloody good idea.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Why don't we just appropriate a certain amount of the GDP for the defense budget, and base our militaries off what other countries with similar budgets have?

That would of course be the real determinator--the points system, as I see it, is mainly to provide a guide to people. If they want to exceed it a bit because a real-life country can do so on a similar population and GDP, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

We can easily tweak the duchies to have more land area and people, and downsize the Imperiums a bit. Also, OOBs should be based on real-world deployments rather than Zor's ridiculous "Oh a Kingdom gets dozens of AEGIS destroyers while Duchies get diddly squat".

I'd favour the typical Duchy being about the size of the Netherlands or Sweden, depending on population density. Which will be higher for island nations than for continental nations--it almost always is in real life, after all.

[Coyote]

We also can forego complex "points systems" and just set up countries with a brief explanation for approval. If someone wants to get away with too much wank (ie, "I have all the world's gold and oil supply, and spies in the highest levels of every other government") then I certainly trust Marina to deliver a smackdown.

[Beowulf]

The problem with avoid complex point systems is adjudicating what's a legal military without it. I'd definitely suggest avoiding points for such things as natural resources, or espionage.

That said, given that a point system was previously requested for aircraft:

military points:
fleet:
carriers - 16
large LHA/LHD - 8
cruisers - 6
small LHA/LHD - 6
destroyer - 4
LPD/LSD - 4
AOE - 4
AKE - 2
frigate - 2
LST - 2
corvette - 1
attack submarine - 2
nuclear costs double (yes, this means a CVN costs 32 points)

aircraft:
5th gen fighter flight(x4) - 4
* F-22 or F-35
4th gen fighter flight(x4) - 2
* teen series american, MiG-29/31, Su-27, JAS 39
3rd gen fighter flight(x4) - 1
* F-4, MiG-23/25
lightweight fighters cost 1/2 what other fighters of their generation do
* F-18Es are not lightweight; F-18As, and F-16 block 52 and earlier are.
* attack aircraft are lumped in with corresponding gen of fighter
* ex: A-10 is a lightweight 4th gen. A-4 is a lightweight 3rd gen.
Strategic bomber - 2 (>45,000 lbs payload)
tactical bomber - 1 (<45,000 lbs payload)
tanker - 1
* KC-135 et al. Not buddy tankers like KA-6D
heavy AWACS - 2
light AWACS - 1
trainer flight (x4) - 1 (does not count two seat fighters, ex: F-16B)
strategic transport flight(x4) - 4
tactical transport flight(x4) - 2
heavy maritime patrol flight(x4) - 4
light maritime patrol flight(x4) - 2
recon same as whatever it's base is, or 2 if there is no base

Imperiums get 1600 points. It's extensive due to the wide variety of aircraft available.

EDIT: tweaked the naval points.

[RogueIce]

If anyone wants, when we get the points worked out I'll make up some "clean" copies of the worksheets I've made already for the Navy/Air Force totals and you can just plug'n'play.

EDIT: He added it, nevermind.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Does anyone have the force sizes for say a US Army tank brigade, infantry, and what not? Same goes for Soviet?

[RogueIce]

Does anyone have the force sizes for say a US Army tank brigade, infantry, and what not? Same goes for Soviet?

This section gives a pretty good rundown of the US Army's BCTs in terms of tanks and IFVs and the like. You'll have to go to someone else for the Soviets though.

If you want previous US Army formations I'm too tired to even bother tonight.

[MKSheppard]

How about this?

Basic unit is the USAF Group/Wing of Aircraft (70 a/c for Fighters, 35 a/c for Bombers)

Basic Costs
Day Fighter -- 10 points
All Weather Fighter -- 15 points
Dedicated Interceptor -- 30 points
Light Bomber -- 10 points
Medium Bomber -- 25 points
Heavy (Intercontinental) Bomber -- 50 points

Multipliers

Production Year
1st Generation (1950-1959) -- 1x Multiplier
2nd Generation (1960-1969) -- 1.5x Multiplier
3rd Generation (1970-1979) -- 2x Multiplier
4th Generation (1980-1989) -- 2.5x Multiplier
5th Generation (1990-2000+) -- 3x Multiplier

Scarcity
Common (Thousands Built, or widely exported) -- 1x Multiplier
Uncommon (100-600 Built) -- 2x Multiplier
Rare (0 to 100 Built) -- 3x Multiplier

So under this points system, the following things would be priced as:

35 x B-2A Spirits

Heavy (Intercontinental) Bomber -- 50 points
5th Generation (1990-2000+) -- 3x Multiplier
Rare -- 3x Multiplier

50 x 3 x 3 = 450 points

35 x B-1B Lancers

Heavy (Intercontinental) Bomber -- 50 points
4th Generation (1980-1989) -- 2.5x Multiplier
Rare -- 2x Multiplier

50 x 2.5 x 2 = 250 points

70 x F-16A Falcons

Day Fighter -- 10 points
4th Generation (1980-1989) -- 2.5x Multiplier
Common (Thousands Built, or widely exported) -- 1x Multiplier

10 x 2.5 x 1 = 25 points

70 x F-16C Falcons

All Weather Fighter -- 15 points
4th Generation (1980-1989) -- 2.5x Multiplier
Common (Thousands Built, or widely exported) -- 1x Multiplier

15 x 2.5 x 1 = 38 points

70 x F-16E Falcons

All Weather Fighter -- 15 points
5th Generation (1990-2000+) -- 3x Multiplier
Rare (0 to 100 Built) -- 3x Multiplier

15 x 3 x 3 = 135 points (or 90 if Uncommon)

I think another good multiplier would be:

Operational Tempo

80-90% Ready at Any One Time (First World Nations, SAC etc) - 1x Multiplier
60% ready at any one time (Second Worldish; there's no real threat, so things can be slacked off a bit) - 0.65x multiplier
10% ready at any one time (Third World; the Sultan wants his own personal MiG-29) - 0.35x multiplier.

So if you're some turd world nation, and you want some nice shinny MiG-29SMTs, you can go:

All Weather Fighter -- 15 points
4th Generation (1980-1989) -- 2.5x Multiplier
Common (Thousands Built, or widely exported) -- 1x Multiplier
10% ready at any one time (Third World; the Sultan wants his own personal MiG-29) - 0.35x multiplier.

15 x 2.5 x 1 x 0.35 = 13 Points to get a flightline of about 50 MiG-29s, of which only 5 are actually flyable at any one time; but they look good for bulking up your military by buying the latest shinny toys.

[Coyote]

That looks good, Shep.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Does an F-22 count as 0-100? Last I checked, the Air Force planned to acquire some 200-300 of them but I think less than 100 have been manufactured.