Something Trekkies don't realize.......

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-01-26 05:37pm

Seeing how the Borg have infused their minds into a single Collective, what would stop Vader from getting ahold of a single drone and using his Force abilities to implant a command, say, self-destruct of wipe out the Federation, then self-destruct

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-26 05:53pm

its easier to send a squadron of isds ^^

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-26 05:58pm

Ben Ingram wrote: Seeing how the Borg have infused their minds into a single Collective, what would stop Vader from getting ahold of a single drone and using his Force abilities to implant a command, say, self-destruct of wipe out the Federation, then self-destruct

Better yet, assimilate feds by sending millions of cubes, then submit their collective will to the command of the empire.

There, you have the Borg collective at your whims.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-01-26 06:01pm

Shinova wrote:
Ben Ingram wrote: Seeing how the Borg have infused their minds into a single Collective, what would stop Vader from getting ahold of a single drone and using his Force abilities to implant a command, say, self-destruct of wipe out the Federation, then self-destruct
Better yet, assimilate feds by sending millions of cubes, then submit their collective will to the command of the empire.

There, you have the Borg collective at your whims.

"Dance monkey drone!"

Though I suppose they could be used for whatever the star wars equivalent of FOX is in thier holo-brodcast reality shows....

Or repaint the cubes and use them as dice in intergalactic games of chance...

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-26 06:10pm

Probably the Borg hive-mind is too strong to be Force-controlled.

Ben Ingram · Post by **Ben Ingram** » 2003-01-26 06:23pm

If he Force-controls the Queen, he CAN control the Hive.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-01-26 06:47pm

Could Jedi mind-tricks be used on a Borg drone?

Tough question, and I think it all boils-down to mind-tricks only being useful against weak-minded subjects...

The mind of a Borg drone is *highly* organised, and not only that but the whole collective thinks as one... I doubt Vader himself could invade even the weakest minds if he had to take on millions at a time.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-26 07:15pm

Ben Ingram wrote:If he Force-controls the Queen, he CAN control the Hive.

"If". Luke couldn't force-control Jabba the Hutt, and I see nothing that says either the Queen is much weaker than Jabba or Vader is that much stronger than Luke by ROTJ.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-01-26 07:21pm

Vader force chokes the Borg Queen from afar. Now they need another one

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-01-26 08:28pm

It has also been said that there is no single 'Borg queen'. The 'Borg queen' is more of an 'ambassador' to potential assimilants. Seeing that the collective is one, there would be no leader for them, just the collective mind. So I think that it is safe to say that there is no single Borg ruler, per se.

Dang nabbit, why is everyone double or triple-posting lately? ~Crayz9000

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-01-26 09:57pm

I believe it's canon that the farther a being's thought processes are from human the harder it is for a human Jedi to affect them, thus the difficulty screwing with Jabba's mind.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-01-26 10:07pm

Kerneth wrote:I believe it's canon that the farther a being's thought processes are from human the harder it is for a human Jedi to affect them, thus the difficulty screwing with Jabba's mind.

I don't think so. I always believed that the mind trick was only effective on the weak minded.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-26 10:10pm

Kerneth wrote:I believe it's canon that the farther a being's thought processes are from human the harder it is for a human Jedi to affect them, thus the difficulty screwing with Jabba's mind.

That might be official, but it isn't canon. ROTJ makes it pretty clear that Luke couldn't control Jabba because Jabba's mind was too strong ("You weak minded fool! He's using an old Jedi mind trick!"). It wasn't until TPM and Watto that we saw a being that claimed his entire species couldn't be controlled by Jedi mind tricks, and for all we know, Watto could have been talking out of his ass. And what if the Jedi knight isn't human? Does the "further from human/harder to control" rule apply to him, too?

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-01-27 01:48am

It's possible that Watto's entire race is too strong-minded to be mind-controlled.

Just a thought.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-27 02:27am

The Emperor was able to inculcate the Senate, and later the entire Imperial military, he even made billions if not trillions forget about a 17 kilometer starship being buried on Coruscant.

The effectiveness of mind tricks is almost certainly related to [1] The Jedi/Siths power in the force [2] How invasive there willing to be.

Jedi tricks may only work on the weak minded because they don't want to damage the mind of the one there using it on. Remember the Imperial commander in the Thawn trilogy? He was killed from the damage inflicted by a forcible mind control by a sith.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-27 02:35am

Well, Sea Skimmer, it wasn't quite the same. Much of his mind was molded into C'boath's, and C'baoth is no Sith.

An insane clone of a Jedi Master with a talent for fucking up grey matter.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-01-27 02:59am

Actually lots of people have considered this as an option, but there really isn't anything other than speculation to truly back up a yes or no answer. I say yes but I think one of a few things would occur before Vader got the whole collective.

Borg "Adapt" either by cutting the possessed drone from the collective or by eventually (after losing A LOT) coming up with some kind of nueral sheilding. It is also possible the collective has dealt with some kind of mind possessing race and has some sort of defense. Again all speculation and it also depends on the Borg adaptation ability. Also, Vader might connect with the organic mind itself and somehow sever the connection accidentally.

How cool would it be though to see the Man himself squeeze a black leather glove and then watch as trillions of borg "collectively" fall over and die.

I don't think its a question of wether Jean Grey or Emma Frost could do it BUT THIS ISN'T A FUCKING X MEN THREAD FANBOY....

If all of the tactical data the borg collected fell into the hands of the empire it would spell doom for the Federation.

Embracer Of Darkness · Post by **Embracer Of Darkness** » 2003-01-27 09:44am

The Borg collective mind is simply *far* too strong, enough said...

Darth Fanboy wrote:Borg "Adapt" either by cutting the possessed drone from the collective or by eventually (after losing A LOT) coming up with some kind of nueral sheilding.

I agree, completely.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-01-27 01:25pm

How much of the Borg hive-mind is organic and how much is technological? Even if you could Force-control an individual drone, there's no reason to believe that control would extend through the subspace gadgets which keep the drone hooked up to the collective. And an individual drone does not have command level-access to the collective--witness how Data, even while hacked directly into the collective through Locutus, could only access low-level functions on an individual cube (which self-destructed when it sensed it was being tampered with, IIRC)(Best of Both Worlds, Part II). It IS possible to send viruses, ideas of individuality, etc. into the collective through a drone, but these are essentially software and not equivilant to direct mind control through the Force. And there are no incidents that I know of anywhere in Trek where a drone or someone working through a drone could control the collective, other than Data's hack in BOBW (and Locutus was a unique drone who may have had higher level access than ordinary numbered drones). The queen is a different story, because she has root access to the system, but you run into three problems with her. First, there's the problem of strong-minded individuals being difficult to control through the Force. The second is that in First Contact, after she was exposed to plasma coolant and her organic parts dissolved, we could see her entire braincase and upper spinal cord were metallic, which might mean she doesn't have an organic brain at all. She definitely doesn't have an organic spinal cord because her spinal column continued to twitch on its own after her organic parts were melted off and glowed from the interior. Finally, there's some confusion over what exactly the queen is and what her status is in the collective. She was on the cube that attacked Earth in BOBW, on the cube that attacked again in First Contact, and was later killed on the Enterprise, and she appeared several times in Voyager. The simplest explanation for this is that there's more than one queen, or there's only one queen at a time, but when one dies, a new one is created. There might be a single queen software personality that can move freely through the collective (somewhat like an Agent in the Matrix), but can also inhabit a specially prepared drone body. It's also not clear if she rules the collective or merely represents it.

The point of all this is that I think without further evidence, I don't think it's possible for a Force-adept to take control of the Borg collective mind. This is hardly a setback for Star Wars, seeing as a single ISD could defeat 1,000 Borg cubes without taking significant damage.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-27 01:35pm

NF_Utvol wrote:It has also been said that there is no single 'Borg queen'. The 'Borg queen' is more of an 'ambassador' to potential assimilants. Seeing that the collective is one, there would be no leader for them, just the collective mind. So I think that it is safe to say that there is no single Borg ruler, per se.
<snip>

Not so thats what the Borg Speakers are for.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-27 02:57pm

Artanis wrote:It's possible that Watto's entire race is too strong-minded to be mind-controlled.

Probably not, since Anakin was able to get all the info he needed from Watto in AOTC. Watto's own will power had diminished between TPM and AOTC.

ReinnResauq · Post by **ReinnResauq** » 2003-01-27 03:48pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Artanis wrote:It's possible that Watto's entire race is too strong-minded to be mind-controlled.
Probably not, since Anakin was able to get all the info he needed from Watto in AOTC. Watto's own will power had diminished between TPM and AOTC.

I don't think the Force was involved when Watto gave in. I think Watto was intimidated, Jedi are very intimidating. I still think an immunity to will-based Force attacks is simply a feature of the Toydarian race.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-27 05:19pm

ReinnResauq wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Artanis wrote:It's possible that Watto's entire race is too strong-minded to be mind-controlled.
Probably not, since Anakin was able to get all the info he needed from Watto in AOTC. Watto's own will power had diminished between TPM and AOTC.
I don't think the Force was involved when Watto gave in. I think Watto was intimidated, Jedi are very intimidating. I still think an immunity to will-based Force attacks is simply a feature of the Toydarian race.

I just think Watto was just very depressed and wanted Annie to like him

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-01-27 05:36pm

I think "Force immunity" on the part of Hutts and Toydarians are both brain bugs. Jabba and Watto simply weren't "weak-minded" in the sense that would make them vulnerable to Jedi manipulation. Watto's hardships might have made him more vulnerable by the time of AotC, but it's impossible to say for sure. It's not like we heard the classic "Force rumble" when Anakin was questioning him.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-27 05:37pm

ReinnResauq wrote:I don't think the Force was involved when Watto gave in. I think Watto was intimidated, Jedi are very intimidating. I still think an immunity to will-based Force attacks is simply a feature of the Toydarian race.

I agree. When a guy with a friggin laser sword, who could cut my head of in .3 seconds flat, asks me in a anrgy tone "I'd like to know." You'd bet your ass I'd go and hurry to find out where she is. Preferably before I feel a searing heat blade cut through my head....

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