Authority

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2008-07-12 02:27pm

Ok.....this may be a real slammer......

Talking to various people on the internet at various times. One claimed to have been a marine officer but there were many problems with his arguments that made me think he was nothing of the sort. The evidence I saw later (he was arrested for pedophilia) listed him as 300 lbs and profession as "writer" (which I judge to mean unemployed.) Various people make claims of being engineers and many other areas. I am always extremely skeptical.

How do you treat such claims?

Kanastrous · Post by **Kanastrous** » 2008-07-12 02:45pm

If I can find misinformation or flaws in their presentation that are obvious to me as a layman were the field is concerned, I point it out and dismiss the person as an authority.

If they know the topic well enough to bullshit me on it past what I can catch with my own education and research, I guess they win for my being lazy and ignorant on the subject.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-07-12 03:50pm

If someone is an engineer or a doctor or some other highly-educated person then he is quite willing to prove it. You don't labour several years to get a degree and be so humble about it that you don't consider it significant.

But really, shit on authority on principle. I believe in authority on reason, that means, that if an engineer says that it won't work then he can tell you why it won't. That's the real difference between a poser and the genuine article: the genuine article knows his stuff.

If a guy is say a marine, then he can tell you stuff like where was he stationed, who was his instructor. I believe there was a topic on this very question somewhere around here.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-12 11:56pm

A few rules on authority:

1) Without real names, claims of authority are worthless.

2) Without specifics, claims of authority are worthless.

3) If someone claiming authority makes serious errors on basic principles applicable to his own profession, his claim of authority is probably fraudulent (note: this is best evaluated by other authorities in that field, not by laypeople who think they understand the field).

4) If someone has no on-topic arguments to support his case other than his claim to authority, his claim to authority is probably a bluff.

CaptainZoidberg · Post by **CaptainZoidberg** » 2008-07-13 12:43am

Ask them to e-mail you with a company or university e-mail address, or if they claim that they're a professor ask for a link.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-07-13 01:15am

CaptainZoidberg wrote:Ask them to e-mail you with a company or university e-mail address, or if they claim that they're a professor ask for a link.

That doesn't work so well if they're no longer employed in such a profession or otherwise going to a university.

CaptainZoidberg · Post by **CaptainZoidberg** » 2008-07-13 01:35am

General Zod wrote:
CaptainZoidberg wrote:Ask them to e-mail you with a company or university e-mail address, or if they claim that they're a professor ask for a link.
That doesn't work so well if they're no longer employed in such a profession or otherwise going to a university.

You should keep your university email even after you graduate, although I do concede that a some people might've gone through school before student's were given email accounts. In such a case a diploma scan may be warranted.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-15 05:40am

Allow me to be frank: people on the Internets claiming to be soldiers in order to win discussions are frauds in 90% of cases, and you can tell easily because they spout bullshit.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2008-07-15 07:28am

CaptainZoidberg wrote:You should keep your university email even after you graduate, although I do concede that a some people might've gone through school before student's were given email accounts. In such a case a diploma scan may be warranted.

Um, how exactly? I wasn't allowed to keep mine when I graduated from my first university (and didn't have one at the second).

And for what purpose?

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2008-07-15 09:45am

Authority, honestly does it really matter?

Concentrate on the arguments instead, if he can present his argument in a logical fashion with good hard facts. it doesn't who or what he does for a living.

Nobody listens to Wong because he's a engineer, they listen because he's got good solid arguments.

Granted if a poster have a profession that demands a high degree of education he or she might have more "weight" to toss around in a argument, but it should never be the deciding factor.

Have you ever seen Wong say "I'm a engineer so you just have to believe me when i say I'm right".

Twoyboy · Post by **Twoyboy** » 2008-07-15 10:33am

The only time I could ever imagine pure authority having any influence on a debate would be if:

a) the subject was so hideously complex that one party has almost no chance of understanding it (for example, if I'm debating String Theory with someone, I'd have to take their word for it) or
b) the evidence was unobtainable to the layman (for example, if I were to tell someone the top trade routes for titanium dioxide feedstock by number of shipments, they'd have to take my word for it as the company I work for spends a lot of money to get the data to compile just those statistics).

However, neither one of these really classifies as a debate, as one party is obviously woefully unequipped to argue. To summarise, if someone trots this out in a vigourous debate, it's probably crap.

Starglider · Post by **Starglider** » 2008-07-15 01:14pm

The only time I could ever imagine pure authority having any influence on a debate would be if:

The main appropriate time for citing qualifications is when a layperson has had their naive criticisms smacked down with overwhelming evidence two or three times, but they still keep trying to nitpick the responses or claim that their obviously harebrained ideas were misunderstood. At this point 'Look, I'm a certified expert in this stuff and you're not, so STFU' is a reasonable response. Sadly the kind of people who get into this situation in the first place are usually the ones who ignore (or activly disparrage) formal qualifications.