SDNWorld Redux - Casting Call & Planning

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-07-15 10:56pm

So:

F-15E
Light Bomber - 10
4th Gen - x2.5
Uncommon - x2
= 50 pts

Should the high side of a Hi/Lo mix really be cheaper than the low side(F-16E)? Alternatively:

F-15C
All weather - 15
4th gen - x2.5
common - x1
= 38 pts

Same cost as the equivalent low side. And is really a good idea to try and differentiate that much between a block 50+ and a block 60 F-16? A block 60 F-16 is as expensive, if not more so, than a F-22 as given. Similarily badly, it puts a Su-30MKI at the same cost as a F-22. Also, a F-16A would be considered a 3rd gen fighter, going off the strict years you've presented.

Op tempo multiplier is off as well. It's 38 points to get a group of F-15Cs with the ability to get 56-63 into the air at any given time, for a cost/plane of ~.65. For 24 points, you can get another fighter group with 60% readiness, resulting in a cost/plane of ~.57.

It's also lacking in granularity, and the ability to configure our forces as we see fit. We're basically stuck with nearly identically created wings of aircraft. Increasing the granularity allows for more variety in how the air forces of the world are created.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-07-15 10:57pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Does an F-22 count as 0-100? Last I checked, the Air Force planned to acquire some 200-300 of them but I think less than 100 have been manufactured.

119 have been delivered to the USAF.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-16 01:09am

Beowulf wrote:Should the high side of a Hi/Lo mix really be cheaper than the low side(F-16E)?

I don't think you comprehend how expensive modern combat planes are, Beo...

The F-15Ks that Korea's buying are 21 x Fighters for $2.3 billion; that's $100~ million per plane.

The F-15SGs that Singapore is buying are 12 x Fighters for $1 billion~ that's $83 million per plane.

The F-16 Block 60s that the UAE bought 80 of cost them $8 billion, that's about $100 million per plane.

The 20 x F-22As the USAF bought in FY2007 cost $3.2 billion, that's $162 million per plane.

Oh, BTW:

the USAF Costs in FY1978 for the F-16/F-15 were

97 x F-15s at $16.3 million each
105 x F-16s at $14.1 million each

About a 15% difference in cost; and that 15% got you a hell of a lot more plane capability.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-16 03:53am

Hmm...you know, even with the bloated cost-per-plane as a result of order cuts, 162 million per F-22 isn't very pricey, considering what that airplane can do. I'm pretty sure it's combat worth can easily match 1.5 of an F-16

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-16 04:31am

PeZook wrote:Hmm...you know, even with the bloated cost-per-plane as a result of order cuts, 162 million per F-22 isn't very pricey, considering what that airplane can do. I'm pretty sure it's combat worth can easily match 1.5 of an F-16

Well, for small nations, it's the issue of whether one wants to trade 4 F-22s, for a frigate which might be equally important.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2008-07-16 05:24am

PeZook wrote:Hmm...you know, even with the bloated cost-per-plane as a result of order cuts, 162 million per F-22 isn't very pricey, considering what that airplane can do. I'm pretty sure it's combat worth can easily match 1.5 of an F-16

162 million is the flyaway cost of the Raptor, those other costs being quoted by Shep are full package costs including spare parts and support equipment. Those costs increase the amount you pay for a warplane by about one third to one half depending on if you include weapons too.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-07-16 05:30am

Goddamn these numbers hurt my head.

Can I just employ someone, like Shep, to figure out the most cost-effective military for a nation of my size?

Come on, I didn't hire Shepman Kahn and the BLAND corporation for nothing

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-07-16 06:55am

So how many points do Duchies get again, and do I need to waste them between my army, navy and air force?

PS: I'm with Shroom on this whole military schtick - I'd prefer not to have to spend a long afternoon with sprawling spreadsheets in order to just set up a military. Can't we just model our military off existing countries with a roughly similar GDP, make a few alterations, and put the result up here for approval?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-16 07:05am

SiegeTank wrote: PS: I'm with Shroom on this whole military schtick - I'd prefer not to have to spend a long afternoon with sprawling spreadsheets in order to just set up a military. Can't we just model our military off existing countries with a roughly similar GDP, make a few alterations, and put the result up here for approval?

I'd be all for that, too. Just find a country with roughly the same GDP, see what they deploy, tweak a bit and present for approval.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-16 08:51am

But spreadsheets are so fun mang

Some costs I've found (all prices normalized to 2007 Dollars)

VL-ASROC: $995,834 per weapon in FY96

Trident II SLBM: $54,166,000 per SLBM in FY88

TOW-2 ATGM: $29,339 for each one in FY93 (course, you can get as low as $21,000, but that's when you buy 20,200 a year, like in 1984).

Tomahawk Land Attack Missile: $1,383,968 per missile in FY96 (it cost $4,930,117 in FY86)

STINGER MANPAD: $73,636 in FY88 (it was $471,535 in FY78)

SSN-688 -- $1.8 to $1.0 Billion (the high costs are in FY81 for a two boat order, while low cost is in FY88 for a four boat order).

SSBN (Ohio) -- $4.1 billion in FY85, $2.2 billion in FY88. Both are for 1 boat orders.

M-16 Rifle -- About $600+

M-4 Carbine -- About $800+ (I guess Colt has to make money somehow)

F-18E/F Sewer Horror: $219.5 million in FY97. $80.7 million in FY03. Why the big difference? '96 was a 12 craft order; '03 was a 45 craft order. Rememebr people, order big...

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-16 08:54am

MKSheppard wrote:But spreadsheets are so fun mang

They are ; But I'm currently stuck doing mock-ups of various ad layouts, so can't slack off and do spreadsheets at work

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-16 09:02am

Gah.. I spend all day reading papers and journals and I still have to think playing this game?

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-07-16 09:04am

I just administered and received an enema today, in nursing school. I don't want to think about gameplay mekaniks too much.

I might accidentally void myself.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-16 09:20am

Initial take on my nation:

Name: The Independent Republic of PeZookia

GDP: 755 billion

Population: 30 million

GDP per capita: $25 166.67

Spending:

Code: Select all

Title	Amount	
Social security	 $30.00 	4%
Defence	 $10.00 	1%
Education	 $30.00 	4%
Health care	 $30.00 	4%
Police, firefighting	 $25.00 	3%
Administration	 $5.00 	1%
Other state services	 $6.00 	1%
Representation	 $0.20 	0%
Investment		0%
R&D		0%
 Total 	 $136.20 	18%

As you can see, the country is substantially richer than old PeZookia (hey, I qualify for a Kingdom now

), but it has recently split itself from the Red Technocracy via violent revolt. Thus it will have a lot of social problems, and any moves to close relations with the Reds will result is a massive blowback from the populace.

Also, it will have a massive public debt resulting from loss of revenue after the revolution, and a large public sector (hey, we were socialist untill recently...).

Socioeconomic challenges FTW!

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-07-16 09:25am

Shroomania will extend its hand in diplomatic overtures, while sowing the seeds of capitalism! Yes!

We're gonna be rich! RICH!

Raj Ahten · Post by **Raj Ahten** » 2008-07-16 09:34am

Well, Shep's prices are for new equipment. If we had a Soviet analog collapse, cheap arms could flood the market.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-16 09:35am

PeZook wrote:Initial take on my nation:

So a $10 billion military budget, eh? Not a lot to work with, especially with a $25k GDP per capita.

That gives us several countries to work with:

Brazil - $9.9 billion
Spain - $9.9 billion
Canada - $9.8 billion
Netherlands - $9.4 billion

Spain:

Army: 96,600 troops, 265,000 reserves
552 x MBTs, of which 150 are AMX-30s, 184 are M-60A3 TTS, 108 are Leopard 2A4, 88 M-45A5Es
144 x IFVs (Pizarros)
1,337 x M113s
310 x Towed Artillery
194 x SP Artillery
153 x Helos, 28 Attack

Navy (22,900 men, 18,500 reserves)
1 x CVS (6-10 AV-8Bs, 4-6 SH-3D ASW, 2 x SH-3D AEW) --Flying hours 160 a month for harriers
8 x SSKs
2 x F-100 FFGs (Mk 41 and SM-2)
6 x OHP FFGs (SM-1, Harpoon)
4 x Baleares FFGs (Harpoon, SM-1)
4 x Descubiera FFs (Harpoon, Sea Sparrow)
37 x Patrol and Coastal Combatants
7 x Mine Warfare Vessels
2 x Newport LSTs (400 troops, 500 tons of vehicles)
2 x Galicia LPDs (620 troops, 2500 tons of vehicles)
1 x Marine Brigade (3,000 troops) - 16 x M-60A3s, 16 x AAV-7A1s, 12 x 105mm pack Howitzers

Air Force (22,750 men, 45,000 reserves)
177 combat aircraft, varied flying hours
91 x EF-18A/Bs (160 annual hours)
23 x F-5Bs (220 annual hours)
52 x Mirage F-1s (160 annual hours)
7 x P-3 Orions
3 x 707 Tankers
7 x C-130Hs
5 x KC-130H tankers

Paramilitary
Guardia Civil (72,600) -- 9 regions, 19 infantry tercios (regiments), with 56 rural battalions, 6 x traffic security groups, 6 x rural special ops groups, 1 x special security battalion

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-16 09:36am

Raj Ahten wrote:Well, Shep's prices are for new equipment. If we had a Soviet analog collapse, cheap arms could flood the market.

The Red Technocracy didn't collapse ; They just had a revolt in one of their satellite countries and since it would've been uneconomical to put it down, you got yourself a brand-new (fucked-up) country.

EDIT: On the military budget, it's quite large enough. Poland maintains a decently sized military (with a lot of obsolete equipment, though) on almost half that.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2008-07-16 09:36am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I just administered and received an enema today, in nursing school.

Was the Enema Bag from MacMillian Heavy Industries' petrochemical division

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-07-16 09:56am

Feast your eyes upon the San Dorado Armed Forces! I've based all of this on a slightly modified version of the Royal Netherlands Army/Navy/Air Force, and since I don't know much about this sort of stuff, if I've done something hilariously stupid please tell me so

.

(Keep in mind that my nation is essentially two big cities and not much else, so presumably we've got little need for oodles of MBTs etc.)

Army of San Dorado
100,000 soldiers

125x MBT
200x IFV
800x AIFV
420x Armoured Cars
90x APC
12x Electronic Warfare vehicles
80x Self-propelled howitzers
160x helicopters, 90 transport / 70 attack
18x Patriot SAM launchers (in 3 Patriot Battalions)

Navy of San Dorado
45,000 sailors
7,500 marines

1x Amphibious Assault Ship
1x Landing Platform Dock
6x Destroyer
3x SSK
20x Patrol and Coastal Combatants
4x Support Ship
2x Helicopter Squadron
1x Air Wing

San Dorado Air Force
20,000 airmen

150 x Rafale C
7 x P-3 Orions
3 x 707 Tankers
7 x C-130Hs
5 x KC-130H tankers

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-07-16 09:59am

Personally, I don't think I'll deploy LSTs and LHDs at all. Perhaps a logistical support ship or two like the ORP Xavery Czernicki, but I don't see much use for Marine batallions and floating airfields if I don't intend to conquer anyone

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-16 10:02am

Bah.. lemme try my hand at it again. I'm a Kingdom still (grumble... still 800 posts away from the next mark) but First World and a population of 30million and an economy of 1.25 Trillion USD. Heck a lot more cash than I used to have.

So here it goes:

Expenditure ---- 25% of Economy (USD$313 billion)

Expenditure Breakdown
- R&D: 20% (USD$62.5 billion)
- Defence: 20% (USD$62.5 billion)
- Education: 15% (USD$46.9 billion)
- Health: 15% (USD$46.9 billion)
- Social Security: 10% (USD$31.3 billion)
- Infrastructure/Trade/Economy/Others: 20% (USD$62.5 billion)

This time round, Defence funds its own R&D and some civilian R&D. I might up the % expenditure of the economy later. As it is, this is way more than what I spent on previously, of course with double the population.

Siege · Post by **Siege** » 2008-07-16 10:04am

PeZook wrote:Personally, I don't think I'll deploy LSTs and LHDs at all. Perhaps a logistical support ship or two like the ORP Xavery Czernicki, but I don't see much use for Marine batallions and floating airfields if I don't intend to conquer anyone

I doubt I'll be conquering anyone with one LPD and five or six battalions worth of marines either

. But I'd still like to keep my options open and be able to send troops to places that need them... We're a trading nation after all, there might come a time when we have to invervene in order to, ah, protect our overseas investments.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-07-16 10:07am

Shep, are there any militaries with 62.5 billion in expenditure?

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2008-07-16 03:45pm

PeZook wrote:Personally, I don't think I'll deploy LSTs and LHDs at all. Perhaps a logistical support ship or two like the ORP Xavery Czernicki, but I don't see much use for Marine batallions and floating airfields if I don't intend to conquer anyone

Amphibs wouldn't be used for for that role in this case, most likely for disaster relief and rapid transit of troops.