WoW, that was boring.

Post by **weemadando** » 2008-07-17 02:57am

Stark wrote:
General Zod wrote:Clearly I'm supposed to somehow want to spend months playing a game with boring mechanics and tedious missions just so I can get to the "good" parts. :lol: :lol:
Don't be a fuckass. He got to LEVEL TWO. He played for AN HOUR. He cums all over fucking Arcanum, and the first few hours of Arcanum fucking suck shit. It's hypocrisy combined with 'lololol WoW sucks'. WoW does indeed suck, but saying 'the noob zone was too easy' it hardly a great criticism. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR. Dare I point out that the first hour a new person plays Diablo is also a) easy and b) boring? No, that would demand consistency.

I know that my Arcanum love is not shared by many, but my problem with wow was that I just failed to feel "involved" with the game. Sure it's a vague criticism and probably due to the fact that I didn't start playing with another friend and be chatting in Vent at the same time so we could share the experience - but nothing about it made me feel like continuing on. Maybe if I'd had friends to play with or something it could have been better. Maybe if I'd dedicated a few more hours I might have found something more to like... But I really just didn't enjoy it. As you might have gathered by now.

Post by **Steve** » 2008-07-17 03:01am

I have to agree that the game is more fun when you're playing with someone. I got into it because of a friend, who in turn introduced me to the guild and greater circle of RPers and players he played with, and it's been fun. Even the usual level grinding can go by better when I can simultaneously indulge in chatting with other players in a private chat channel.

But it's not the same for everyone, so I hope you find a game more to your liking, Ando.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-17 05:40am

weemadando wrote:I know that my Arcanum love is not shared by many, but my problem with wow was that I just failed to feel "involved" with the game. Sure it's a vague criticism and probably due to the fact that I didn't start playing with another friend and be chatting in Vent at the same time so we could share the experience - but nothing about it made me feel like continuing on. Maybe if I'd had friends to play with or something it could have been better. Maybe if I'd dedicated a few more hours I might have found something more to like... But I really just didn't enjoy it. As you might have gathered by now.

Dude, you played a multi-only game solo for like an hour. That's like installing UT3, playing a botmatch, and complaining there aren't enough tactics in the game and deleting it.

The lack of personal character involvement is so typical of the entire genre, most players don't even read the fluff text and anyone who does (during a cutscene or instance) will get spammed with 'who the fuck is reading it just click okay' messages. It's not really about the stupid story, it's about the stupid progress bars and grind. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

MMOs have a halflife, and it's different for everyone; for some people it's long enough for the periodic new content to keep them in, and for some it's so short you can't even play it. Playing with friends or being obsessed with farming makes it last longer, but even with friends, I've never lasted in an MMO for more than a few months of casual play. By the same token, I can't stand to play Diablo either, because it's exactly the same but even more meaningless.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2008-07-17 11:52am

GuppyShark wrote:In the long run yes, there's not enough loot for that to take effect. With such a small sample size, /random creates really enormous disparities.

People shouldn't acquire enormous DKP leads. About the only times I've seen it are when the loot for a class simply doesn't drop. In which case it's only fair that the regulars should be prioritised, since they're the ones carrying the new members through content.

The only other explanation I can see is if DKP costs are not balanced against DKP charges, resulting in "DKP inflation" (if I can coin a term).

My experience was in a guild that, due to a subpar retention rate of members, several poor players, lack of interest, and guild drama never really did much more than Molten Core pre-TBC. I had been a member for a couple of months, and my experience was that new members had virtually no chance of acquiring gear until they had made a very significant contribution of time. Points accumulated slowly, and the cost of items was high enough that you really didn't even have a chance for quite some time. I did eventually start to get a few pieces, but the officer core (and a select few others who were part of the officer's little clique) already had virtually every item they could want from MC and so accumulated a massive bankroll of DKP. They got first shot at anything new or rare that dropped, which I agree is fair given their time investment, but their accumulation of points was so significant that by the time another item dropped, they had made up their losses and then some.

Eventually we tried to progress to the other 40-man content, and this is where things fractured. A small group, perhaps 10 people or so, had enough points to grab every drop in a new raid for months. The remainder of the guild was disinclined to put forth the effort, frustration, and imaginary-money investment required to learn new content if they were assured of never receiving an item for an incredibly long time, despite the fact that their effort was just as necessary as the effort of the officer core. It felt to many members that the officers' little clique was trying to use the effort of the "lower" members to propel themselves forward and let their "lessers" catch up after the instance was on farm status - regardless of the fact that the lower-point-total members would need to expend just as much effort to put the raid on farm int he first place.

Combined with general guild bank asshattery (if you weren't a member of the officers' clique, you would never get crafting materials from the guild bank like core hound leather, etc, regardles of the fact that you helped farm the stuff over the course of months and that the item you're trying to craft would actually assist the guild as a whole), the guild somewhat fractured. I was far from the only person who left.

I'll admit that this is something of a biased account of DKP experience because, as was mentioned, DKP is irrelevant if your officers are dicks anyway. But by joining a guild where rational discussion and mutual respect and friendship are the preferred method of gear distribution rather than points totals, I've found that I actually enjoy again a segment of teh game that had been turned into a chore rather than a fun escape.

At this point I don't want to join a hardcore raiding guild, or any guild that uses DKP systems, because experiencing new content and killing new bosses is less important to me than enjoying the experience with a group of friends.

I have seen DKP systems that work reasonably well - I mentioned a system where the highest DKP total gets the item, but then all DKP is wiped out. This prevented the large point disparities from persisting, and rewarded long-time effort by giving first pick to those who had made the time investment.

But I vastly prefer no system at all - being able to say "Hey, Akhlys would get a massive upgrade from those gloves, and it's like a sidegrade for me, so I'll just let her take them" or "I would only use this for a side-spec set, so if anybody is actually going to use it, take it!" is preferable to any sort of DKP or even random /roll system. It's not necessarily efficient in 25-man content where more people can use a given item and you want to move on quickly, but I'd rather limit myself content-wise than limit my enjoyment of the game. I find that it's more relaxed, and instead of a select few uber-geared players with massive point totals and a large group of mediocre mice picking at their leavings, we have a relatively even level of gear progression making each member of the guild a worthwhile addition able to make a significant contribution to the raid.

I still say fuck DKP, and I still think that such systems are stupid, but that's just becasue I've found a group of people to play with for whom such systems are not necessary.

Maxentius · Post by **Maxentius** » 2008-07-17 11:57am

Any DKP system that shares the same pool of DKP for all instances is inherently flawed. The systems I've often found to be the fairest are Zero-Sum with separate accumulation for each individual raid instance, and possibly a shared pool for content that is on farm status/smaller in scale (e.g. ZG/AQ20 pre-TBC or Kara/ZA post-TBC).

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2008-07-17 12:29pm

The trouble with separate-instance-pool DKP is that it leads to 'oh, I don't need that anymore' behavior REALLY easily. Asshat McWinklestein who's done with Molten Core stops showing up to raids, ever, but is always there for Blackwing. The MC raids don't do as well, because he's one of ten other people doing the same thing, but in the point pool for the loot they DO want, they come out smelling like roses.

I favor a point-decay system, where only point gains/losses over a particular period are tracked. Set that to, say, a month, and a new member can be fully competitive in a month if he's dedicated. At the same time, someone who's been raiding since dinosaurs roamed the earth but ninjavanishes for two months can't just come back and start yoinking gear again. That kind of thing, however, requires some hefty automation.

Maxentius · Post by **Maxentius** » 2008-07-17 12:45pm

White Haven wrote:The trouble with separate-instance-pool DKP is that it leads to 'oh, I don't need that anymore' behavior REALLY easily. Asshat McWinklestein who's done with Molten Core stops showing up to raids, ever, but is always there for Blackwing. The MC raids don't do as well, because he's one of ten other people doing the same thing, but in the point pool for the loot they DO want, they come out smelling like roses.

The system my first raiding guild used was a very convoluted hybrid in terms of separate pools, but I found that it actually worked quite well. DKP spent was distributed according to Zero Sum, and given to a raider's DKP pool for that particular instance. But there was also this kind-of-weird concept called 'Meta DKP', in which bonus DKP for Attendance and Strategy Learning was assigned to whatever pool the player preferred.

So, say, if Assistrain Trinketbomber has everything he needs from MC, but he still shows up, he'll get three hours' worth of attendance time that he could potentially have added to his BWL pool. It does have the effect of widening the DKP Gap, but admittedly not by that much. Likewise, if Newguy O'Tierone still needs stuff out of MC, but he goes with the guild to try and drop Skeram, and fails, he can have that DKP added to his MC pool, or even his BWL pool, if he wants to think about staying competitive with Assistrain Trinketbomber.

There are shortcomings, and it's very complex to run and grasp, but it was a lot fairer in the long run than some of the Fixed Price/Bid System shared pools that some of the guilds I was in used.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2008-07-17 02:40pm

One of the best things about WoW is that the way the loot system is arranged in the new content really supports all of these methods. A guild can set up whatever point system they want at this point, and you'll still get Badges (and that loot is insanely good), and there are sufficient items that drop per boss that a large percentage of the raid group will at least have multiple drops that they could equip, even if many times those items are no longer upgrades, over the course of the raid.

My experiences with DKP aside, it's pretty easy to see how virtually any system if applied consistently will lead to everyone gettng drops relatively quickly when bosses frequently drop 2-3 items each even in 10-man raids. With the number of bosses in dungeons like Kara and the relatively quick progression through the instance with a decent group, chances are good that most people will get something on a given run. 25-man instances are obviously going to have a lower loot/raid member ratio, but Blizzard makes up for that by adding additional badges/boss, and adding things like Nether Vortices and epic gems that can drop in addition to the bosses normal loot table.

In Molten Core and the other old raids, you would very frequently come out empty handed after 3-5 hours of effort. Sure it could be fun, but running a 40-man raid is a lot of effort from all of the attendees, and you'd really like to get something out of it beyond the experience itself, since that wears off after the 12th time through. Now, you're far more likely to come out with something at least, and the worst case is that you just got a shitload of badges and in a couple more weeks you can buy a T6 level weapon or a pair of armor pieces. Even if your officers are dillholes, or if your DKP rules allow for unfair accumulation of points such that you won't see a "real" drop for a month, or even if you're just brand new to the guild and have a 0 total, you're still going to get the badges no matter what as long as the boss dies, and you're likely to walk out with a gem or something as a consolation prize if you don't get something better.

I think Blizzard has really been paying attention to the problems with raiding in general. The new direction towards 10-25 player content makes raid management far easier and makes each individual player's contribution more significant along with making rewards easier to individually acquire. I'm really looking forward to WotLK, where we will be able to run the same raid with 10 or 25 people on separate cooldowns with slightly different loot tables. I'll still get to see the real endgame content even if I don't wind up with the absolute best gear just running with a 10-man group, and that's really awesome.

Also, Death Knights. Hell yes. And the leaked Warlock talents look really good. I'm really not going to know what to play when the expansion comes out - by then I'll have my Warlock main, my Paladin semi-main, and my Druid all at 70 along with the urge to create a Death Knight, just like the thousands of others who will want to do so immediately. But then, that's a really good problem to have.

Jaevric · Post by **Jaevric** » 2008-07-17 03:47pm

I hated Molten Core as a feral druid. Admittedly, pre-BC itemization for feral druids was lousy anyway, but I spent soooo much time in Molten Core with my guild playing healbot (yuck) for gear I didn't want (more yuck) only to be told occasionally I couldn't roll on the stuff I would've used because, "it's rogue gear" (...).

Though admittedly one of the raid leaders had the backbone to generally tell any rogue who whined about me rolling on good feral leathers or other gear to stfu. One of my few fond memories of MC was a rogue screaming about how I didn't need that gear, druids can't DPS, and him being told, "You already got the dagger. You weren't next on the rogue list to get something. And he's kicking on the DPS charts without getting aggro as much. Shut up." Of course, I had to put on my healing dress shortly thereafter, but it was fun while it lasted.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2008-07-17 04:27pm

Jaevric wrote:I hated Molten Core as a feral druid. Admittedly, pre-BC itemization for feral druids was lousy anyway, but I spent soooo much time in Molten Core with my guild playing healbot (yuck) for gear I didn't want (more yuck) only to be told occasionally I couldn't roll on the stuff I would've used because, "it's rogue gear" (...).

That happens a lot with hybrid classes. I don't experience it myself, since I pretty much only run with people I know, but there have been many a Paladin who can tell stories about raid members telling them "stfu and heal", even if they are protection spec.

Also, I've heard cases of paladins being bitched out when they roll for plate pieces that don't have +int because "that's warrior gear"

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-07-17 05:06pm

What's been pissing me off (and one reason why I don't mind solo play as much as some here) are people are make me WAIT.

As an example: My guild has regularly scheduled raids. The dates and times are posted on the website. The set groups are also listed, as well as which class slots are open for which group. You are welcome to show up as an alternate to replace any regulars that don't show, as long as you understand your place is not guaranteed. The Guild Message of the Day (the text that pops up every single time you log on) lists the next TWO scheduled raids, including date and time.

Why the FUCK can't people show up on time?

Seriously - I fucking HATE waiting a half an hour or an hour for some jackass to get his shit together and get to the instance door.

The guild policy has been to select alternates for missing slots rather than wait for people to show up. If you log on at the last minute don't expect to be summoned directly into the dungeon, you can damn well fight your way through the opposite faction parties outside. And quit fucking WHINING!

That, and the chat-chat-chat. We do have pauses for chatting and taking a piss, but when we're fighting SHUT THE FUCK UP! I'm not the most highly geared character (my gear has occasionally been described as "jacked up yard-sale armor") and I don't have a shitload of mods on my system to play the game for me, but I DO get invited to raids because (get ready for this):

1) I shut the fuck up most of the time.
2) I listen to instructions
3) I kill shit.

Note, I did NOT say I score highest in DPS because I don't - sometimes I'll fire off a heal, or back off for a few ticks because my threat is getting so high and I don't want to aggro anything, or refresh my totems for the benefit of others. As a result, I don't rank highest in DPS but I am damn useful to have around. The fact I'm generous with food for hunters and their pets, and usually have some spare drinks for the idiot caster(s) who didn't bring enough, doesn't hurt either.

Rahvin · Post by **Rahvin** » 2008-07-17 06:34pm

Broomstick wrote:What's been pissing me off (and one reason why I don't mind solo play as much as some here) are people are make me WAIT.

As an example: My guild has regularly scheduled raids. The dates and times are posted on the website. The set groups are also listed, as well as which class slots are open for which group. You are welcome to show up as an alternate to replace any regulars that don't show, as long as you understand your place is not guaranteed. The Guild Message of the Day (the text that pops up every single time you log on) lists the next TWO scheduled raids, including date and time.

Why the FUCK can't people show up on time?

Seriously - I fucking HATE waiting a half an hour or an hour for some jackass to get his shit together and get to the instance door.

The guild policy has been to select alternates for missing slots rather than wait for people to show up. If you log on at the last minute don't expect to be summoned directly into the dungeon, you can damn well fight your way through the opposite faction parties outside. And quit fucking WHINING!

That, and the chat-chat-chat. We do have pauses for chatting and taking a piss, but when we're fighting SHUT THE FUCK UP! I'm not the most highly geared character (my gear has occasionally been described as "jacked up yard-sale armor") and I don't have a shitload of mods on my system to play the game for me, but I DO get invited to raids because (get ready for this):

1) I shut the fuck up most of the time.
2) I listen to instructions
3) I kill shit.

Note, I did NOT say I score highest in DPS because I don't - sometimes I'll fire off a heal, or back off for a few ticks because my threat is getting so high and I don't want to aggro anything, or refresh my totems for the benefit of others. As a result, I don't rank highest in DPS but I am damn useful to have around. The fact I'm generous with food for hunters and their pets, and usually have some spare drinks for the idiot caster(s) who didn't bring enough, doesn't hurt either.

Shamans aren't really supposed to top the meter anyway. They bring value to the raid in terms of totems and offhealing that vastly offsets a little extra damage. I have occasionally seen well-geared Shamans in the top slots, but only in fights where their offhealing is completely unnecessary and their gear level is significantly above what the fight requires.

Obsessing over the top DPS slot is really silly. I watch my damage meter so I can compare how I'm doing to everyone else, and until I (semi) retired my Warlock I did consistently top the meters, but Warlocks don't really do much other than DPS when there's no appropriate CC to be done. Shamans frequently have another job, and it's just as (or even more) important.

On my paladin I'll never top the healing meter against Priests and Druids and Shamans because I have no multi-target heals or instant HoTs - I'm strictly a tank spam-healer for the most part. Who cares about the top slot? It doesn't necessarily mean you did or did not contribute more to the group than anyone else, or that you're "better."

In the end, if the boss died and everybody had fun, that's really all that mattered.

And I know exactly what you mean about the chattiness. This is why I don't group with kids any more. At 25 I think my girlfriend may actually be the youngest person in our guild, and that suits me just fine - the adults are all perfectly happy to shut the fuck up and kill, and save the joking around and chit-chat for break time.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2008-07-17 06:42pm

I gave WoW two tries, once during open beta and once about six months ago using a borrowed account with a couple days left on it. On the one hand it was a bit of a nice change but on the other I could never play a game where the end game was grinding raids for gear.

I like how in DAoC I can create a new character and if I had all weekend have it fully leveled, do my champion weapon quest, buy or catch a couple pickup raids for jewlery, use crafted armor and in theory be fully ready for end game RvR in two or three days if I really push myself. If I end up liking the character I could always make a better suit later but the difference between a suit with 900 utility and 1000+ utility total value only comes into play during the closest possible fights.

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2008-07-17 07:06pm

I like how in BF2142 I can create a new character and have it fully ready for PvP in two or three minutes.

Resinence · Post by **Resinence** » 2008-07-17 07:15pm

I see what your saying guppy, but BF doesn't have 1/4 the metagame of typical MMO PVP, even if WoW's is rather simplistic, they just aren't comparable. BF consists almost entirely of mouse skills and reflexes. Someone made an MMO that didn't need leveling, called Fury, it's dead. They went broke.

Edit: Apparently fury got an investor, since I just checked the site and the cash tournament is back online.

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2008-07-17 07:31pm

GuppyShark wrote:I like how in BF2142 I can create a new character and have it fully ready for PvP in two or three minutes.

I like how in Halo I don't even need to create a new character and be ready for PvP.

See what I did there?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-17 10:01pm

GuppyShark wrote:I like how in BF2142 I can create a new character and have it fully ready for PvP in two or three minutes.

Which is why COD4 is better?

CaptHawkeye · Post by **CaptHawkeye** » 2008-07-17 10:08pm

GuppyShark wrote:I like how in BF2142 I can create a new character and have it fully ready for PvP in two or three minutes.

You can? Well, I guess. If you consider BF2142's "drag/drop linear unlocks" mini game a kind of "customization".

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2008-07-17 10:48pm

GuppyShark wrote:I like how in BF2142 I can create a new character and have it fully ready for PvP in two or three minutes.

Well if you like having only that one specific type of content then that would be why you play an FPS.
I was simply commenting that if one enjoys one type of content more then they shouldn't have to or have to do very little before being able to get to what the player finds fun, an MMO is much more complete if you can do more than one thing with it.

Different games are for different people and obviously the vast majority of people who MMO prefer to PvE for hundreds of hours and go on large raids repeatedly so Warcraft caters to them. Twitch gamers want to just pop in, join a server running Dust and shoot things up. My preferences sit in between so I'm sticking where I am, probably until EA finally drives the game into the ground and pulls the plug.

Minischoles · Post by **Minischoles** » 2008-07-17 10:55pm

Rahvin wrote:
Broomstick wrote:What's been pissing me off (and one reason why I don't mind solo play as much as some here) are people are make me WAIT.

As an example: My guild has regularly scheduled raids. The dates and times are posted on the website. The set groups are also listed, as well as which class slots are open for which group. You are welcome to show up as an alternate to replace any regulars that don't show, as long as you understand your place is not guaranteed. The Guild Message of the Day (the text that pops up every single time you log on) lists the next TWO scheduled raids, including date and time.

Why the FUCK can't people show up on time?

Seriously - I fucking HATE waiting a half an hour or an hour for some jackass to get his shit together and get to the instance door.

The guild policy has been to select alternates for missing slots rather than wait for people to show up. If you log on at the last minute don't expect to be summoned directly into the dungeon, you can damn well fight your way through the opposite faction parties outside. And quit fucking WHINING!

That, and the chat-chat-chat. We do have pauses for chatting and taking a piss, but when we're fighting SHUT THE FUCK UP! I'm not the most highly geared character (my gear has occasionally been described as "jacked up yard-sale armor") and I don't have a shitload of mods on my system to play the game for me, but I DO get invited to raids because (get ready for this):

1) I shut the fuck up most of the time.
2) I listen to instructions
3) I kill shit.

Note, I did NOT say I score highest in DPS because I don't - sometimes I'll fire off a heal, or back off for a few ticks because my threat is getting so high and I don't want to aggro anything, or refresh my totems for the benefit of others. As a result, I don't rank highest in DPS but I am damn useful to have around. The fact I'm generous with food for hunters and their pets, and usually have some spare drinks for the idiot caster(s) who didn't bring enough, doesn't hurt either.
Shamans aren't really supposed to top the meter anyway. They bring value to the raid in terms of totems and offhealing that vastly offsets a little extra damage. I have occasionally seen well-geared Shamans in the top slots, but only in fights where their offhealing is completely unnecessary and their gear level is significantly above what the fight requires.

Obsessing over the top DPS slot is really silly. I watch my damage meter so I can compare how I'm doing to everyone else, and until I (semi) retired my Warlock I did consistently top the meters, but Warlocks don't really do much other than DPS when there's no appropriate CC to be done. Shamans frequently have another job, and it's just as (or even more) important.

On my paladin I'll never top the healing meter against Priests and Druids and Shamans because I have no multi-target heals or instant HoTs - I'm strictly a tank spam-healer for the most part. Who cares about the top slot? It doesn't necessarily mean you did or did not contribute more to the group than anyone else, or that you're "better."

In the end, if the boss died and everybody had fun, that's really all that mattered.

And I know exactly what you mean about the chattiness. This is why I don't group with kids any more. At 25 I think my girlfriend may actually be the youngest person in our guild, and that suits me just fine - the adults are all perfectly happy to shut the fuck up and kill, and save the joking around and chit-chat for break time.

Theres nothing wrong with chattiness, if its something like a T4 or T5 run for alts and offspecs and some easy badges, generally we're all quite relaxed, we're chatting and joking over TS and in raid chat, even on the bosses we joke around since nearly everyone is massively overgeared and its easy.
Its only once we're in T6 and Sunwell content that we get serious, because that requires people listening to the raid leader (frequently me) and performing to their best.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2008-07-17 10:58pm

Here's a question about the gear. How much is each upgrade in practical terms? If two otherwise equal characters played the exact same way fought but one had one tier lower gear how much would the higher tier player win by on average?

GuppyShark · Post by **GuppyShark** » 2008-07-18 01:47am

In WoW? Raiding gear is of questionable value in PVP. In a raid, only a handful of people are expecting to be the focus of enemy attention - I don't look at my survivability at all when choosing my optimal DPS gear. So in PvP anyone wearing PvE gear will usually die quickly.

Ironically, in WoW the best and quickest way to gear up your character for PVP is to PVP. Get to 70, do some quick rep to honored with the main Outlands factions. That gets you your Blue PVP set. Jump into a battleground, win some matches, and start equipping Season 2 PVP gear.

For reference:

Code: Select all

PVP        PVE
Blues      Blues
S1          T4 (Karazhan 10)
S2          T5 (SSC/Tempest Keep 25)
S3          T6 (Mount Hyjal/Black Temple 25) <- My raid is here
S4          Sunwell <- Handful of raids are here

Most of the 70s you run into are wearing mainly S2 with pieces of S3&4. The paladin alt I recently hit 70 with? Blues/S2 gear.

EDIT: To fix formatting.

Minischoles · Post by **Minischoles** » 2008-07-18 06:07am

Stormin wrote:Here's a question about the gear. How much is each upgrade in practical terms? If two otherwise equal characters played the exact same way fought but one had one tier lower gear how much would the higher tier player win by on average?

Well the difference between T4 gear and T6 gear can be huge, in the high hundreds in terms of relative DPS. There's WWS reports of Hunters pulling close to 4000 DPS (so doing 4000 damage every second of a fight) on bosses when they get the legendary bow.

If both fight in the exact same way, to utilise every cooldown and enhancing potion/trinket/consumable, then the person with the higher level iof gear could potentially pull a couple of hundred DPS more, have higher regen. The difference is even more profound for healers, since the difference between tiers is huge.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2008-07-18 06:27am

Minischoles wrote:Theres nothing wrong with chattiness, if its something like a T4 or T5 run for alts and offspecs and some easy badges, generally we're all quite relaxed, we're chatting and joking over TS and in raid chat, even on the bosses we joke around since nearly everyone is massively overgeared and its easy.

That depends on the group - last time I ran Kara we had 3 people who were raiding novices, one of whom lacked the "minimum mandatory mods" (omen, deadly boss mods) we require for raiding but didn't tell us until halfway through. A group like that is not "massively overgeared" and the noobies will not find Kara easy.

Not everyone is end game already, you know - maybe my guild is just weird because we actively try to educate players new to raiding.

GuppyShark wrote:Most of the 70s you run into are wearing mainly S2 with pieces of S3&4. The paladin alt I recently hit 70 with? Blues/S2 gear.

Depends on the server - I think "most" may be an overstatement because I run into a LOT of 70's still wearing Outland greens.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2008-07-18 10:22am

In terms of PvE damage I've seen my Destro lock go from mid to high hundreds in blues and a few tailored bits to 16-1800 dps in roughly half BT-level epics, half Kara-level epics. Gear really does make a tremendous difference in that sort of thing. I don't PvP, so I can't comment from experience there.