CGT sensors - The Thrawn Trilogy

[Timotheus]

Ok I now longer have my TTT boks but I was curious if someone could look up or remember off head something from the books.

I seem to remember that nowhere in the book do we actually see a CGT used to detect a cloaked ship. Am I right?

I know the NR talks about stealing one to use against cloaked ships but I also seem to remember a NR tech or official saying that they "think" a CGT will work and another NR person saying that it might not work at all.

Do we ever get a definitive answer at all on if the CGT does work detecting stealthed ships (or asteroids, etc) and if sucessful does it do so fast enough to be viable in battle?

[CaptainChewbacca]

They were using it to track asteroids, because of their large mass. I don't think it could be done quickly, easily, or during a battle. It probably also couldn't pick out small cloaked objects inside a chaotic space battle.

[Mr Bean]

Quoting Wookipedia

A crystal gravfield trap (CGT) was a rare and expensive type of sensor that used a synthetic crystal grid to detect and identify fluctuations in the local gravity field. They could be blocked by the presence of mass, not being able to detect a ship on the far side of a planet due to its mass.

CGTs were the only sensor that could reliably detect a ship with an active cloaking device. When Grand Admiral Thrawn blockaded Coruscant with a number of cloaked asteroids, locating them became a top priority

I also recall older posts on this subject saying that a CGT worked via what we can do today(Watching for the slight changes in a star to see if it had planets pulling on it) and exploting that to all mass. By detecting what gravitational forces were acting on it, removing all know detectable forces, anything left has to be your cloaked ship.

[Timotheus]

They were using it to track asteroids, because of their large mass. I don't think it could be done quickly, easily, or during a battle. It probably also couldn't pick out small cloaked objects inside a chaotic space battle.

I dont think they ever got to that stage. They wanted to find the asteroids but they actually destroyed all of them before they had the CGT.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Essential guides (And a few other sources, I think the RPG ones) mention CGT sensors being used to detect cloaked ships (Being one of the only things I believe, in fact) due to mass (they're passive sensors.).

The thing is, its not just a matter of the type of sensor. CGTs are actually fairly ocmmon gravitic sensors (Star wars sourcebook, Far Orbit project, etc.) many ships carry them. They simply don't have enough sensitivity to actually detect a cloaked vessel at any practicable ranges (gravity is a very weak force remember, and its not very precise, ,esp if you get other gravity-generating sources nearby, like planets and stars. ESp at long ranges.)

Even though CGTs are sensitive enough to detect th em, they can only track a cloaked vessel at some "thousands" of kilometres away.

I imagine a cloaked vessel could be detected by shipboard CGT, but it would only happen at such close ranges (tens of km or less, probably) that you'd almost be on top fo the vessel, so it wouldn't matter.

[Timotheus]

One thing to think about.

In ESB at one point an officer on board an ISD comments that the Falcon is too small to be carrying a cloaking device.

This tells us two things. One that they are pretty large items. Second that if it did have a cloak then that would be sufficient to evade detection by the Imperial forces.

[Havok]

That could just mean that the power source needs to be large, not necessarily the device itself. Maul's ship is smaller than the Falcon and it had a functioning cloaking device. IIRC though, it was a different system.

[Darth Raptor]

So did the Emperor's shuttle.

The statement is more interesting for suggesting that capital ship-scale cloaking devices are somewhat commonplace.

[Isolder74]

Both of those are specialized enough to not be common knowledge and also might be considered state secrets.

The fact the the Emperor's shuttle has a clocking device might easily be top secret

[Darth Ruinus]

Or it could be that the ISD captain didnt know what he was talking about, since IIRC those TIE Phantoms or whatever had cloaking devices, and I think they are smaller than the MF.

[Isolder74]

Or it could be that the ISD captain didnt know what he was talking about, since IIRC those TIE Phantoms or whatever had cloaking devices, and I think they are smaller than the MF.

Those Phantom Ties also would handily Qualify under the topic of TOP SECRET.

If it was not something Needa needed to know about he probably wouldn't know about it.

[Timotheus]

Or it could be that the ISD captain didnt know what he was talking about, since IIRC those TIE Phantoms or whatever had cloaking devices, and I think they are smaller than the MF.

Was it ever said in any movie that the Tie-Phantom existed or that Maul's ship had a cloak?

Because if they dont then the canon rules say that the movie has highest standing and overrides written sources that contradict it.

[Swindle1984]

The TIE Phantom, Maul's ship, and Palpatine's shuttle all used that stygian crystal cloaking device, which seems to be very similar to Star Trek cloaks (the ship disappears but can still see everything).

The more common cloak used by the Empire is used almost exclusively on capital ships (though Thrawn did use one to hide TIE fighters inside a freighter) and is double-blind; you can't see the ship unless you enter its cloaking field and it can't see anything outside.

Which brings up the question of why they don't use some sort of antennae to poke outside the cloaking field by a few centimeters and pick up passive data. I'm sure no one is going to notice or care about a tiny metal rod a few centimeters in length that isn't giving out any sort of active scans.

[Isolder74]

I'm sure that would be possible. The catch is making sure the cloaking field isn't to large or to small. I would also imagine that an antenna of that length would have large g forces problems. Such an antenna might make any cloak equipted ship obvious when uncloaked.

[Tiriol]

Or it could be that the ISD captain didnt know what he was talking about, since IIRC those TIE Phantoms or whatever had cloaking devices, and I think they are smaller than the MF.

Was it ever said in any movie that the Tie-Phantom existed or that Maul's ship had a cloak?

Because if they dont then the canon rules say that the movie has highest standing and overrides written sources that contradict it.

First of all, Lord Maul's Sith Infiltrator's systems were fried before they could be examined by the Republic engineers and scientists, so there would be no official accounting of its capabilities (besides Master Saesee Tin's highly subjective accounting of "touch of the dark side" about the ship) - which would also include cloaking device.

Secondly, TIE Phantoms were a top secret experimental project and all prototypes were destroyed by the Rebels. Although being a commanding officer of an Imperial Star Destroyer might be an extremely prestigious position, it still doesn't mean that the Emperor and the Imperial military would have any need to inform every CO everywhere about their secret projects ("That information is on the need-to-know-basis and you don't need to know.").

And thirdly: there isn't a contradiction in this case. The Phantom Menace didn't say that Maul's ship had a cloaking device, but the EU does say so and since the movie doesn't contradict the EU, the EU stands. TIE Phantoms' existence is not contradicted in movies (Captain Needa is just ignorant of them).

[Connor MacLeod]

"Cloaking" devices can encompass a wide range of different devicese and effects, and most of them tend to be restricted. You can have sensor cloaking, or sensor + visual cloaks, and they may all operate by different manners (the Stygian cloak, the Wayland cloak, Boba Fett has a cloaking device, etc.)

Most cloaks (esp the stygian and "double blind" type) are very restricted technologies not known to much of the galaxy at large (so only you'd expect high ranking individuals - Jedi Knights, chiefs of state, chiefs of security, etc. - to know abou tthem.)

[Timotheus]

Or it could be that the ISD captain didnt know what he was talking about, since IIRC those TIE Phantoms or whatever had cloaking devices, and I think they are smaller than the MF.

Was it ever said in any movie that the Tie-Phantom existed or that Maul's ship had a cloak?

Because if they dont then the canon rules say that the movie has highest standing and overrides written sources that contradict it.

First of all, Lord Maul's Sith Infiltrator's systems were fried before they could be examined by the Republic engineers and scientists, so there would be no official accounting of its capabilities (besides Master Saesee Tin's highly subjective accounting of "touch of the dark side" about the ship) - which would also include cloaking device.

Secondly, TIE Phantoms were a top secret experimental project and all prototypes were destroyed by the Rebels. Although being a commanding officer of an Imperial Star Destroyer might be an extremely prestigious position, it still doesn't mean that the Emperor and the Imperial military would have any need to inform every CO everywhere about their secret projects ("That information is on the need-to-know-basis and you don't need to know.").

And thirdly: there isn't a contradiction in this case. The Phantom Menace didn't say that Maul's ship had a cloaking device, but the EU does say so and since the movie doesn't contradict the EU, the EU stands. TIE Phantoms' existence is not contradicted in movies (Captain Needa is just ignorant of them).

That is a cop-out and a rather lame one. He said rather plainly that no ship that small could have a cloaking device and not a single person even began to contradict him.

[Tiriol]

Was it ever said in any movie that the Tie-Phantom existed or that Maul's ship had a cloak?

Because if they dont then the canon rules say that the movie has highest standing and overrides written sources that contradict it.

First of all, Lord Maul's Sith Infiltrator's systems were fried before they could be examined by the Republic engineers and scientists, so there would be no official accounting of its capabilities (besides Master Saesee Tin's highly subjective accounting of "touch of the dark side" about the ship) - which would also include cloaking device.

Secondly, TIE Phantoms were a top secret experimental project and all prototypes were destroyed by the Rebels. Although being a commanding officer of an Imperial Star Destroyer might be an extremely prestigious position, it still doesn't mean that the Emperor and the Imperial military would have any need to inform every CO everywhere about their secret projects ("That information is on the need-to-know-basis and you don't need to know.").

And thirdly: there isn't a contradiction in this case. The Phantom Menace didn't say that Maul's ship had a cloaking device, but the EU does say so and since the movie doesn't contradict the EU, the EU stands. TIE Phantoms' existence is not contradicted in movies (Captain Needa is just ignorant of them).

That is a cop-out and a rather lame one. He said rather plainly that no ship that small could have a cloaking device and not a single person even began to contradict him.

Dialogue is, at best, rather dubious source of information to begin with, not to mention that there is no reason why any member of the Avenger's bridge crew should know about a secret military project or about a vessel that was damaged beyond reasonable use over 35 years before, a vessel that only held interest for a group of mystics and few engineers assigned to work on it. WHY should anyone contradict Captain Needa? Just on the principle of contradicting?

[Timotheus]

First of all, Lord Maul's Sith Infiltrator's systems were fried before they could be examined by the Republic engineers and scientists, so there would be no official accounting of its capabilities (besides Master Saesee Tin's highly subjective accounting of "touch of the dark side" about the ship) - which would also include cloaking device.

Secondly, TIE Phantoms were a top secret experimental project and all prototypes were destroyed by the Rebels. Although being a commanding officer of an Imperial Star Destroyer might be an extremely prestigious position, it still doesn't mean that the Emperor and the Imperial military would have any need to inform every CO everywhere about their secret projects ("That information is on the need-to-know-basis and you don't need to know.").

And thirdly: there isn't a contradiction in this case. The Phantom Menace didn't say that Maul's ship had a cloaking device, but the EU does say so and since the movie doesn't contradict the EU, the EU stands. TIE Phantoms' existence is not contradicted in movies (Captain Needa is just ignorant of them).

That is a cop-out and a rather lame one. He said rather plainly that no ship that small could have a cloaking device and not a single person even began to contradict him.

Dialogue is, at best, rather dubious source of information to begin with, not to mention that there is no reason why any member of the Avenger's bridge crew should know about a secret military project or about a vessel that was damaged beyond reasonable use over 35 years before, a vessel that only held interest for a group of mystics and few engineers assigned to work on it. WHY should anyone contradict Captain Needa? Just on the principle of contradicting?

Because at that point they only had two thoughts. Cloaked or went into hyperspace. Those two options result in radically different search tactics.

[Knife]

That is a cop-out and a rather lame one. He said rather plainly that no ship that small could have a cloaking device and not a single person even began to contradict him.

Don't be retarded. What you are proposing is that the US military informed every skipper of every US Naval and Coast Guard ship of the Air Forces stealth fighters in the 1970-80's during development of the F117 just in case they saw some weird shit on the radar.

Of course they didn't, but if one of those captains mentioned that a radar invisible aircraft was unheard of and impossible, we wouldn't take his statement as iron clad truth since obviously it wasn't.

[Tiriol]

Because at that point they only had two thoughts. Cloaked or went into hyperspace. Those two options result in radically different search tactics.

Yes..? What are you getting at?

[Darth Hoth]

Or it could be that the ISD captain didnt know what he was talking about, since IIRC those TIE Phantoms or whatever had cloaking devices, and I think they are smaller than the MF.

Was it ever said in any movie that the Tie-Phantom existed or that Maul's ship had a cloak?

Because if they dont then the canon rules say that the movie has highest standing and overrides written sources that contradict it.

Your pardon? Are you suggesting that anything not explicitly mentioned in the films is non-canon? Or that anything in contradiction with any throwaway line uttered by anyone on-screen is?

If it is the former, would you throw out the entire Expanded Universe; are you one of the Darkstar-inspired hyperexclusionists?

If the latter, I suppose you wish to think that the Clone Wars were indeed fought with only a few million men at the most? (Ref: ultra-literal interpretation of Kaminoan quote from AotC) Or that the Millennium Falcon has a top speed of 1.5 c? (Ref: ultra-literal interpretation of Han Solo quote from ANH) Or that there are only ever two beings following the Dark Side at the same time in the galaxy? (Ref ultra-literal interpretation of two Jedi quotes from TPM - all Darksiders being Sith and there only being two Sith) Or that Palpatine is (physically) the Senate - after all, he said so! (Ref ultra-ultra-literal interpretation of Palpy quote from RotS)

Happy? I thought so.

Obviously, not everything said on-screen is gospel written in stone. You are not taking into account that the characters who voice these your axioms are supposedly human - they can use sarcasm, hyperbole, misdirection, or else simply be uninformed or mistaken, just as people can in real life. In the case of Needa, it is frankly rather asinine to assume without a shred of evidence - as you do - that he, a lowly commander of a destroyer, is somehow informed of every top secret Imperial project. Do you also suppose that every Army Air Corps major in the War was informed of the Manhattan Project, so as to be able to recognise an atomic strike for what it was if they saw one?

Needa could obviously not be talking of something that he did not know about, such as the TIE Phantoms. And as for the idiocy of your "No one contradicted him so he must be right!", are you then assuming that the captain's subordinates should have access to top secret information that he himself does not? That is venturing beyond stupid and into the territory of dishonesty.

To make a long history short: There is no contradiction, and you cannot even make up a logically plausible one if you try.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The project to equip V-38 assault fighters (they are not TIEs, they possess three ion engines and the fuselage is significantly different from the TIE lineage, and the cockpit is a truncated cone similar to those of the YT-series of CEC light stock freighters) with one-way cloaking devices was a secret and experimental project, there's no reason Needa would be aware of it and even less reason to think such technology would be at the disposal of a pirate tramp freighter allied with rebel guerrilleros. As for the cloaking device aboard Scimitar, proprietary Sith technology is most definitely unknown to the greater galaxy, and probably even the Empire.

[Ender]

Qui-gon wanted to know if the Queen's ship had a cloak in TPM. Clearly Needa was wrong about the size of a ship that can cloak.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It is also possible that such technology was successfully restricted due to bottlenecks in certain components or resources, engineering specialists, or otherwise - similar to cloning - such that by the film era it effectively did not exist beyond high-security-clearance Imperial projects.