Looking for information regarding Centerpoint Station

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-07-19 08:54pm

Crazedwraith wrote:You don't take 14 year olds into an area where they're out numbered hundreds to one by deadly killer robots.

Except that is exactly what they did and you defend them for it.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2008-07-19 09:02pm

Ender wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:You don't take 14 year olds into an area where they're out numbered hundreds to one by deadly killer robots.
Except that is exactly what they did and you defend them for it.

Umm.. no, I'm not. I'm the one who objected in the first place.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2008-07-19 09:49pm

The roman age of majority was 25, not 12. The roman term of service was twenty years, in the later period, 25 in the earlier period. The Romans wouldn't want child soldiers because they're lacking in the principle requirements for an ancient soldier: strength and stamina.

Swindle1984 · Post by **Swindle1984** » 2008-07-20 01:57pm

Ender wrote:Look at all those useless words.

I am very curious as to why you feel we should emulate the Roman Empire in behavioral practices, and how child soldiers do not constitute "endangerment" or "child abuse". Also, why these concepts are apparently bullshit.

By all means, explain why it is wrong to treat the creation and use of child soldiers as a war crime and heap disgust upon it accordingly.

If you're talking to me, I didn't say a fucking thing about how we should emulate the Romans or use child soldiers, dumbass.

I DID say we needed to give minors more personal responsibility and more credit where it's due. This does not translate to "let's put small children to work in factories and use them to clear minefields, lol". Only an absolute fucktard would think it did.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-07-20 05:44pm

Swindle1984 wrote:
Ender wrote:Look at all those useless words.

I am very curious as to why you feel we should emulate the Roman Empire in behavioral practices, and how child soldiers do not constitute "endangerment" or "child abuse". Also, why these concepts are apparently bullshit.

By all means, explain why it is wrong to treat the creation and use of child soldiers as a war crime and heap disgust upon it accordingly.
If you're talking to me, I didn't say a fucking thing about how we should emulate the Romans or use child soldiers, dumbass.

Bullshit, you cited them as a supporting example for your argument that we are in the wrong in how we treat children today.

I DID say we needed to give minors more personal responsibility and more credit where it's due. This does not translate to "let's put small children to work in factories and use them to clear minefields, lol". Only an absolute fucktard would think it did.

You cited an incorrect Roman example to back you. Yes, that is endorsing the behavior.

Swindle1984 · Post by **Swindle1984** » 2008-07-20 09:42pm

Ender wrote:
Swindle1984 wrote:
Ender wrote:Look at all those useless words.

I am very curious as to why you feel we should emulate the Roman Empire in behavioral practices, and how child soldiers do not constitute "endangerment" or "child abuse". Also, why these concepts are apparently bullshit.

By all means, explain why it is wrong to treat the creation and use of child soldiers as a war crime and heap disgust upon it accordingly.
If you're talking to me, I didn't say a fucking thing about how we should emulate the Romans or use child soldiers, dumbass.
Bullshit, you cited them as a supporting example for your argument that we are in the wrong in how we treat children today.

I DID say we needed to give minors more personal responsibility and more credit where it's due. This does not translate to "let's put small children to work in factories and use them to clear minefields, lol". Only an absolute fucktard would think it did.
You cited an incorrect Roman example to back you. Yes, that is endorsing the behavior.

Hey dumbfuck, when I include examples of how our society has only recently left very similar standards (one of which was, evidently, historically incorrect), THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M ENDORSING THE BEHAVIOR, SHITHEAD. It means I'm fucking pointing out how we weren't very different until recently. We adopted child labor laws WHEN?

Yes, when you mention something an as example of how you USED to do things, that means you support it. I suppose if I point out that we had slavery in the US until 1865, meaning we weren't much different from the Empire and its practice of slavery, that means I must want to own slaves, right?

Clean the shit out of your ears and stop saying stupid things, moron.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-07-21 12:20am

Swindle1984 wrote:*snip waste of bandwidth*

Hey look, more lies.

Your point is that we have been coddling people and that is the incorrect way to go about doing it. You specifically cite your made up example to support your idea that only recently has that been a change, and that said change has been a bad thing. Yet now you claim that the examples you pulled from your ass are not supposed to support your main point, that the recent change was a bad one. Nonsense. If you didn't mean for the examples to back your position, why woul you cite them?

More to the point, you specifically stated

A padawan is trained his entire life for one purpose, to be a Jedi. When he is apprenticed to a master, he is receiving hands-on training on a daily basis. Is this training sometimes dangerous, or even deadly? Yes. Just like their daily job will be when they become a Jedi. If they never face any sort of danger in their training, then they won't be prepared for it when they're on their own and have nobody to step in and kiss their booboos for them.

AFTER it had been pointed out and sourced that you are talking about sending 14 year olds to fight a war.

You absolutely, unequivocally backed the idea of child soldiers here. You defend the idea on the basis because apparently, if we don't send kids to fight in a war, they won't be able to fight in a war as adults without someone to "step in and kiss their booboos for them". Because you know, training adult soldiers doesn't work apparently.

Fuck off shit head, your posts are right fucking there for anyone to scroll back to. Now fucking obey the board rules and defend your position of why committing war crimes is a good thing.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2008-07-21 12:26am

Even if we ignore the legality/morality of sending 14 year olds into battle, the fact is that the 14 year old padawan is still half trained. That's why he's a padawan and not a knight. Why the hell would you send someone off to battle half-trained?

Qwerty 42 · Post by **Qwerty 42** » 2008-07-21 01:47am

Darth Yoshi wrote:Even if we ignore the legality/morality of sending 14 year olds into battle, the fact is that the 14 year old padawan is still half trained. That's why he's a padawan and not a knight. Why the hell would you send someone off to battle half-trained?

More importantly, he isn't psychologically prepared for war. The Jedi, frankly, aren't any stronger mentally than non-Force users. Anakin Skywalker, for instance, makes a breathtakingly poor decision in Revenge of the Sith.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-21 02:08am

Qwerty 42 wrote:
Darth Yoshi wrote:Even if we ignore the legality/morality of sending 14 year olds into battle, the fact is that the 14 year old padawan is still half trained. That's why he's a padawan and not a knight. Why the hell would you send someone off to battle half-trained?
More importantly, he isn't psychologically prepared for war. The Jedi, frankly, aren't any stronger mentally than non-Force users. Anakin Skywalker, for instance, makes a breathtakingly poor decision in Revenge of the Sith.

And he makes breathtaking good adult decisions as a nine year old. What exactly is your point? Try not to forget he had been manipulated by the most powerful man in the galaxy for 10 years into making that decision.

And as for sending Padawans into battle, the Jedi didn't exactly have much choice. The recognized leader of the Galactic Republic ordered the Jedi to command an army of TRILLIONS, to defend the very existence of said Republic, with less than 10,000. They didn't exactly have a choice.

Timotheus · Post by **Timotheus** » 2008-07-21 10:13am

Qwerty 42 wrote: Anakin Skywalker, for instance, makes a breathtakingly poor decision in Revenge of the Sith.

So did Yoda and Mace Windu. From the sounds of it the only Jedi who thought and acted intelligently were Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-07-21 11:31am

havokeff wrote:And as for sending Padawans into battle, the Jedi didn't exactly have much choice. The recognized leader of the Galactic Republic ordered the Jedi to command an army of TRILLIONS, to defend the very existence of said Republic, with less than 10,000. They didn't exactly have a choice.

Didn't have a choice? Bullshit, they had plenty of leaders both in the Clone army itself, and from recruiting established militaries e.g. Major Rousou, Brigidear Tarkin, etc. They had trillions of men and women to act as leaders, who did so to make up the gap between the umber of troops an the number of Jedi. There is ZERO excuse for why they had to send 14 year olds of to fight and die. Didn't have a fucking choice? Are you kidding me?

And you still haven't defended your claims that somehow, the fact that a child can use the Force means that we can disregard the fact that they are still a child and it makes it ok.

You and Swindle need to start backing your shit up, because this refusal to address counterpoints while defending the commission of fucking war crimes is getting real old real fast.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-21 04:00pm

Ender wrote:
havokeff wrote:And as for sending Padawans into battle, the Jedi didn't exactly have much choice. The recognized leader of the Galactic Republic ordered the Jedi to command an army of TRILLIONS, to defend the very existence of said Republic, with less than 10,000. They didn't exactly have a choice.
Didn't have a choice? Bullshit, they had plenty of leaders both in the Clone army itself, and from recruiting established militaries e.g. Major Rousou, Brigidear Tarkin, etc. They had trillions of men and women to act as leaders, who did so to make up the gap between the umber of troops an the number of Jedi. There is ZERO excuse for why they had to send 14 year olds of to fight and die. Didn't have a fucking choice? Are you kidding me?

And you still haven't defended your claims that somehow, the fact that a child can use the Force means that we can disregard the fact that they are still a child and it makes it ok.

You and Swindle need to start backing your shit up, because this refusal to address counterpoints while defending the commission of fucking war crimes is getting real old real fast.

Well obviously they aren't war crimes or they wouldn't have allowed the Jedi to do it. Are you going to back up YOUR assertion that it is a war crime in the Star Wars Galaxy? In case you haven't noticed, I never claimed it wasn't a crime on OUR planet.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-07-21 04:39pm

havokeff wrote:Well obviously they aren't war crimes or they wouldn't have allowed the Jedi to do it. Are you going to back up YOUR assertion that it is a war crime in the Star Wars Galaxy? In case you haven't noticed, I never claimed it wasn't a crime on OUR planet.

Can the bullshit semantics you childish little fuck. You defended the commission of war crimes. Your exact words were "What exactly is so reprehensible about it?" and further criticized modern earth for criminalizing it with "This isn't modern day Earth, where we coddle our children into their 20s and think they are complete fucking idiots." So while you never claimed it wasn't a crime, you clearly take issue with the fact that it is.

This isn't couched in terms of legal standing, this is whether the act itself is horrific, and you have made it very clear you do not feel that it is. Back up your fucking position.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-21 05:52pm

Ender wrote:
havokeff wrote:Well obviously they aren't war crimes or they wouldn't have allowed the Jedi to do it. Are you going to back up YOUR assertion that it is a war crime in the Star Wars Galaxy? In case you haven't noticed, I never claimed it wasn't a crime on OUR planet.
Can the bullshit semantics you childish little fuck. You defended the commission of war crimes. Your exact words were "What exactly is so reprehensible about it?" and further criticized modern earth for criminalizing it with "This isn't modern day Earth, where we coddle our children into their 20s and think they are complete fucking idiots." So while you never claimed it wasn't a crime, you clearly take issue with the fact that it is.

War crimes as defined by our society. As for "What is so reprehensible about it?" I followed that up with saying that Jedi Padawans are better equipped to handle any danger than a average adult or soldier is able to.

And I wasn't criticizing our laws, I was commenting on the fact that we treat our kids like they are idiots and incapable of making decisions or taking care of themselves well into their adult lives, even by our laws. Which was a response to the comments on Anakin and Jacen not being able to or shouldn't be allowed to make correct decisions on Centerpoint.

This isn't couched in terms of legal standing, this is whether the act itself is horrific, and you have made it very clear you do not feel that it is. Back up your fucking position.

I don't think sending a Jedi Padawan in his mid teens into a dangerous situation is horrific idiot, not sending in normal kids.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2008-07-21 06:11pm

havokeff wrote:War crimes as defined by our society.

Quit the fucking semantics. It is a war crime to make use of child soldiers. Since you feel the need to stipulate this you apparently feel the problem is in the law of the scenario, not the morality of it. So defend why it is wrong to classify child soldiers as a fucking war crime you god damned idiot.

As for "What is so reprehensible about it?" I followed that up with saying that Jedi Padawans are better equipped to handle any danger than a average adult or soldier is able to.

Yes, a declaration by fiat. You are yet to provide any reasoning whatsoever as to why we should ignore the fact that these padawans are still fucking children.

And I wasn't criticizing our laws,

The fuck you weren't. This very post you make it clear that in your warped and sick little mind the issue is a legal one, not an ethical one.

I was commenting on the fact that we treat our kids like they are idiots and incapable of making decisions or taking care of themselves well into their adult lives, even by our laws. Which was a response to the comments on Anakin and Jacen not being able to or shouldn't be allowed to make correct decisions on Centerpoint.

They aren't allowed because they are fucking children and using child soldiers is morally heinous, ethically unjustifiable, and a fucking war crime.

I don't think sending a Jedi Padawan in his mid teens into a dangerous situation is horrific idiot, not sending in normal kids.

Oh good, so now we are getting "war crimes are ok" as a tautology, rather then you fucking defending your position.

Defend your position. You have made if very clear you have no problem sending preteens and young teens to fight a war. Quite your fucing semantics and dodges and justify your position.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-07-21 06:36pm

So just to clarify, it seems like what havokeff is really arguing is that Jedi Padawans, what with having superpowers and being part of a vanishingly tiny minority with these powers, shouldn't be considered "normal" kids. Ender is saying that it doesn't matter.

Is that more or less accurate, or am I misinterpreting the issue here? This debate got into "you're a bad bad man" territory very quickly.