Armageddon???? - Part Eighty One Up

[Stuart]

By this point though, it'd be interesting to know what date it is in this AU, is it already april? Is it may? How are countries outside the U.S. changing? The East-asian religions? China?

The story started off in January 2008, its now nearly August 2008. In short things are running more or less real time.

Second...the bit with kitten seemed force. I don't know how well it matchs anything else. It seems to add nothing except a bit of information about a non relevent character. Then again, with a serial novel such as this, thats not a huge problem.

The fact that kitten is a trans-sexual was made clear right from the start. She is an important, indeed central character since she made the whole hell operation possible. Tucker McElroy is from the bible belt are of the USA and has all the mental/conceptual baggage one might expect from that background. Hence, for him to accept kitten for what she is, makes a major jump in his perceptions. It's intended to show that, as religious feelings are fading and discredited, so the perceptions and prejudices that they engender are fading with them.

[Setzer]

I know the feeling. When I was younger, I believed that the homosexuals killed in the Holocaust deserved what they got, because they were abominations against god.

Later on in life, when I abandoned my Christian faith, I abandoned a lot of the prejudice that went with it. I realized that since all my objections to homosexuality were religious in nature, I really had nothing against it anymore.

I like to think I'm willing to see people for what they are, rather then what the Bible tells me I should see. I'm also far less likely to think someone deserves to die.

[Stuart Mackey]

Man, the demons just can't get a break, can they? I'm surprised the gorgons think the human leaders are members of the British Parliament in London, considering the UN Headquarters is in New York.

Anyways, I doubt taking out the British government's VIPs will improve things for the demons, as someone else (POTUS, the Canadian PM, a British Army general or Royal Navy admiral, etc.) will certainly step in to fill the leadership void.

Parliament consists of the Monarch, Commons and the Lords Spiritual and Temporal. If the demons kill of 'parliament' will it be all three or the Lords and Commons?. Its worth noting that most people think of Parliament as the commons only and if that's all they get, and even if the get the Lords as well, then all that happens is that the Monarch uses the Royal prerogative personally until new houses of commons can be elected and new Lords appointed to the upper chamber. If you get the Monarch, that no biggie, there are thousands of people who are in line for the throne.

[Sea Skimmer]

Hmm…would lava flowing around London be charged the congestion tax, or praised for alleviating the problem?

[JN1]

If they target the building now then all they get is the building, targeting what, over a thousand people spread across the UK is a pretty difficult task.

[JN1]

Hmm…would lava flowing around London be charged the congestion tax, or praised for alleviating the problem?

Depends on how much CO2 it produces. Boris would probably praise it.

[Kie99]

By this point though, it'd be interesting to know what date it is in this AU, is it already april? Is it may? How are countries outside the U.S. changing? The East-asian religions? China?

The story started off in January 2008, its now nearly August 2008. In short things are running more or less real time.

I can't believe how long it's been since I started reading this and refreshing for updates every day. This is a great piece of work.

[Pelranius]

Has North Korea finally decided to join in? Last I remember was that they were still sitting off in their own little corner.

Despite the size of the Chinese military, we haven't seen much of them yet, unless they're all spread out doing civil defense or something.

[Edward Yee]

Despite the size of the Chinese military, we haven't seen much of them yet, unless they're all spread out doing civil defense or something.

Presumably homeland defense and letting the others take the "major" casualties and supply depletions.

[Darth Wong]

Does the Chinese military even have the ability to deploy large forces overseas?

[Pelranius]

Does the Chinese military even have the ability to deploy large forces overseas?

No, not anymore than say the Indians or the Israelis. However, I imagine that they could draw off the strategic airlift (or commandeer civilian transports) of the other military for strategic transport of materials and equipment, then shipping it with their own logistical units to the divsional level.

[EdBecerra]

Does the Chinese military even have the ability to deploy large forces overseas?

No, not anymore than say the Indians or the Israelis. However, I imagine that they could draw off the strategic airlift (or commandeer civilian transports) of the other military for strategic transport of materials and equipment, then shipping it with their own logistical units to the divsional level.

And may... well, can't ask for "God's" help here, not no more...

May SOMEONE have mercy on the denizens of Hell if the baldricks are foolish enough to open a permanent portal in Chinese territory.

Standing army of over two million, and a total army of seven million if/when their reserves are activated?

Even Satan's legions would feel the ouch should the People's Liberation Army go on the march.

Ed.

[bilateralrope]

Does the Chinese military even have the ability to deploy large forces overseas?

No, not anymore than say the Indians or the Israelis. However, I imagine that they could draw off the strategic airlift (or commandeer civilian transports) of the other military for strategic transport of materials and equipment, then shipping it with their own logistical units to the divsional level.

And may... well, can't ask for "God's" help here, not no more...

May SOMEONE have mercy on the denizens of Hell if the baldricks are foolish enough to open a permanent portal in Chinese territory.

Are the baldricks even capable of opening another portal of that size ?

[Pelranius]

Does the Chinese military even have the ability to deploy large forces overseas?

No, not anymore than say the Indians or the Israelis. However, I imagine that they could draw off the strategic airlift (or commandeer civilian transports) of the other military for strategic transport of materials and equipment, then shipping it with their own logistical units to the divsional level.

And may... well, can't ask for "God's" help here, not no more...

May SOMEONE have mercy on the denizens of Hell if the baldricks are foolish enough to open a permanent portal in Chinese territory.

Standing army of over two million, and a total army of seven million if/when their reserves are activated?

Even Satan's legions would feel the ouch should the People's Liberation Army go on the march.

Ed.

Well, what I meant is that China is capable of deploying quite a sizeable force into the Hell Expeditionary Force given enough time and sufficient access to allied, indigenous and civilian transport, but the sustainability of any such force is dependent on how much in the way of logistics that the PLA can dig up by commandeering civilian stuff and shifting all transportations systems and production to a war footing, otherwise they'll just end up scrounging for leftovers from the other guys.

[NecronLord]

Oh, and if the body is somehow DNA-based, and the regeneration is good enough completely restore a body to ‘perfect’ health, then I’d bet that kitten’s going to be pissed.

Not to mention other tran-sexuals, addicts to plastic surgery, people born with surgically correctable birth defects (cleft palates and club feet come to mind), along with various other people who just ain't happy with the hand nature dealt them at birth...

Ed.

Look on the bright side. There's a whole lot of eunuchs and people who were otherwise maimed by human intervention, for whom it'd be a boon.

Parliament consists of the Monarch, Commons and the Lords Spiritual and Temporal.

I rather doubt those of them that are still alive retain their position by now.

[Starglider]

Glenfiddich12, the point about rage and hatred toward baldricks is well taken, but considering the fact that we've massacred so many of them already, I have to imagine it would be blunted somewhat. What are we going to do, call for extermination of their entire species?

You can bet some people will be. Some people on this message board would be, in the Armageddon timeline (it's interesting to imagine what threads might be here - of course a lot of the posters would've been drafted in short order).

[Glennfiddich12]

Glenfiddich12, the point about rage and hatred toward baldricks is well taken, but considering the fact that we've massacred so many of them already, I have to imagine it would be blunted somewhat. What are we going to do, call for extermination of their entire species?

You can bet some people will be. Some people on this message board would be, in the Armageddon timeline (it's interesting to imagine what threads might be here - of course a lot of the posters would've been drafted in short order).

As I stated earlier, while some may call for that sort of thing, that's not what I'm arguing. I just don't see people in general in too much of a hurry to cut deals with baldrick or demon strongmen for the sake of 'stability'. Deals with whatever human leadership pops up would be a much easier sell, especially when first-person accounts of how humanity was treated get out. You think those guys from the 101st aren't talking about small children used as glorified baldrick chicken fingers? How's that going to play in the West?

As for the Chinese military, I wouldn't think they'd be deploying in great numbers at this time if only because of their deficiencies in logistics and power projection. They have no experience in long range power projection the the US has mastered over the last 40 years. Remember, these guys don't even have the ability to force landings on a nearby island (Taiwan).

[EdBecerra]

Well, what I meant is that China is capable of deploying quite a sizeable force into the Hell Expeditionary Force given enough time and sufficient access to allied, indigenous and civilian transport, but the sustainability of any such force is dependent on how much in the way of logistics that the PLA can dig up by commandeering civilian stuff and shifting all transportations systems and production to a war footing, otherwise they'll just end up scrounging for leftovers from the other guys.

Actually, I got that.

What I meant was this - the baldricks commit the stupid act of putting a portal within MARCHING distance for the People's Liberation Army. Keeping in mind that these are the same guys, more or less, who pulled off the original Long March.

Then it's mostly a "Keep the AK-47, Type 87 HMG, and QLB-06 ammo coming, boys - even if you have to backpack it in on human mules" situation.

Not altogether different from what they did in Korea - it's just a little on the "let's expend cheap human lives instead of costly technology and oil" side, and now that they know we don't really die, just move to a different plane, well...

Hmm...

Ed.

[Stuart]

Does the Chinese military even have the ability to deploy large forces overseas?

In a word, no. In fact the CPLA lacks the amphibious lift (the Navy is part of the Army) to put more than a brigade ashore anywhere. They have a nice new LPD that just got commissioned but their lift capability is still almost non-existant. That's why I get very tired when I hear the usual culprits spouting forth about "the Chinese Threat" on one hand and "the invincible CPLA/Asian Way of War" on the other.

The Chinese Army has a veneer of modern mechanized capability but its paper-thin. The bulk of their army is still leg infantry divisions that march to battle Even the veneer of mechanized capability isn't very convincing. Recently, the Chinese Army has been trying to reorganize itself so that its existing single-type battalions have been changed into combined-arms battle groups. For example, a tank battalion might be reorganized with one of its tank companies replaced by a mechanized infantry company and have a detachment, say a section, of artillery added. The initial trial results were a disaster, the officers simply were not trained to handle forces outside their area of speciality and didn;t know what to do with them. In the above example, the tank battalion commander might well have tried to do his job with his two tank companies and just leave the infantry and artillery components behind. What it has ended up as is the division trying to directly control 12 - 14 battalions over a wide front and the whole C4ISR network fell apart.

If that's happening with the chosen units the CPLA use for its glossy public face, can you imagine what the situation is like in the rank and file units?

In fact, in some ways, the CPLA is very much like the baldrick armies; they're a mass of footsloggers. The CPLA may find its modern units useful if they can solve the command problems with them but their infantry are terribly vulnerable to harpy attacks. So, the best role for teh CPLA is probably to stay put and defend the home base. The big contribution the CPLA can make is supplying ammunition and equipment to nations using Russian-caliber weapons. The Chinese have a production capacity that pretty much dwarfs everybody else.

Aircraft (the Air Force is part of teh army as well) are a different matter. The sheer number of fighters (albeit old ones) the Chinese can put up is a valuable anti-harpy defense. So we can expect to see a lot of Chinese fighters appearing once teh bases to handle them are built, For reasons that will become apparent in the next part, that's important.

[Pelranius]

In a word, no. In fact the CPLA lacks the amphibious lift (the Navy is part of the Army) to put more than a brigade ashore anywhere. They have a nice new LPD that just got commissioned but their lift capability is still almost non-existant. That's why I get very tired when I hear the usual culprits spouting forth about "the Chinese Threat" on one hand and "the invincible CPLA/Asian Way of War" on the other.

The Chinese Army has a veneer of modern mechanized capability but its paper-thin. The bulk of their army is still leg infantry divisions that march to battle Even the veneer of mechanized capability isn't very convincing. Recently, the Chinese Army has been trying to reorganize itself so that its existing single-type battalions have been changed into combined-arms battle groups. For example, a tank battalion might be reorganized with one of its tank companies replaced by a mechanized infantry company and have a detachment, say a section, of artillery added. The initial trial results were a disaster, the officers simply were not trained to handle forces outside their area of speciality and didn;t know what to do with them. In the above example, the tank battalion commander might well have tried to do his job with his two tank companies and just leave the infantry and artillery components behind. What it has ended up as is the division trying to directly control 12 - 14 battalions over a wide front and the whole C4ISR network fell apart.

If that's happening with the chosen units the CPLA use for its glossy public face, can you imagine what the situation is like in the rank and file units?

In fact, in some ways, the CPLA is very much like the baldrick armies; they're a mass of footsloggers. The CPLA may find its modern units useful if they can solve the command problems with them but their infantry are terribly vulnerable to harpy attacks. So, the best role for teh CPLA is probably to stay put and defend the home base. The big contribution the CPLA can make is supplying ammunition and equipment to nations using Russian-caliber weapons. The Chinese have a production capacity that pretty much dwarfs everybody else.

Aircraft (the Air Force is part of teh army as well) are a different matter. The sheer number of fighters (albeit old ones) the Chinese can put up is a valuable anti-harpy defense. So we can expect to see a lot of Chinese fighters appearing once teh bases to handle them are built, For reasons that will become apparent in the next part, that's important.

Well, actually the Navy isn't part of the Chinese Army, which is to say that the PLAN staff answers only to the CMC, not the PLA ground forces. It's just that "Army" in Chinese translates into "military" in the general sense, but military and army are often used interchangeably in Mandarin, thus leading to the confusion. I think it's a cultural thing, since much of Chinese naval history took place on inland waterways.

The Chinese military has been completely motorized, since the eighties IRC. As for combined arms operations, I won't comment too much on it since PLA doctrine isn't my strongpoint but Lt. Colonel Yu (he's a Canadian army officer) can provide quite some illuminating information on current Chinese land warfare tactics, Stuart. I think you can find him nowadays at worldaffairsboard, where he spends most of his time now.

From the discussions that he's participated in, he seems to indicate a belief that at least some PLA units (i.e. 38th and 39th Group Armies) are capable of combined arms capability.

Hope that's helpful Stuart.

[Stuart]

Well, actually the Navy isn't part of the Chinese Army, which is to say that the PLAN staff answers only to the CMC, not the PLA ground forces. It's just that "Army" in Chinese translates into "military" in the general sense, but military and army are often used interchangeably in Mandarin, thus leading to the confusion. I think it's a cultural thing, since much of Chinese naval history took place on inland waterways.

The Army is the senior service and the command authority; the Air Force and Navy are subordinate to and exist to support the Army. Its the Army that dominate planning and decide who does what. Put it all together and I think its fair to say that the Army and navy are part of the Army, much as the USAAF in WW2 was still part of the Army even if it did have a great degree of autonomy. In WW2 USAAF the B-29 force answered directly to the Chiefs of staff, yet they were still part of the Army.

The Chinese military has been completely motorized, since the eighties IRC. As for combined arms operations, I won't comment too much on it since PLA doctrine isn't my strongpoint.

Motorized isn't mechanized and 'completely' is bending things a bit. Most Chinese divisions have truck units for their logistical tail and usually enough motor lift for one battalion of infantry. That's 'complete' because its their ToE but it doesn't mean they have a full lift for all their units. Most Chinese units have their motor lift centralized at a higher comamnd level and its parcelled out as needed. This can mean that one division has a full lift while the others in its higher-level formation are grounded. At lower levels, Chinese units still use the 'half company lift" principle. This means that each company has a seperate APC platoon that has the capacity to lift one half of one company. It picks them up, delivers them and then moves to pick up the other half. Again, that's 'fully equipped" in the sense that its what the ToE demands but its far from being fully mechanized.

but Lt. Colonel Yu (he's a Canadian army officer) can provide quite some illuminating information on current Chinese land warfare tactics, Stuart. I think you can find him nowadays at worldaffairsboard, where he spends most of his time now.

I get the original source data from China including CPLA magazines and english translations of their military journals. The comamnd control problems have been a constant theme of all the technical journals for more than a year now with some quite fierce criticisms of officers for their failings in various exercises. (The officers probably don't exist but the standard means of criticizing the system is to take a fictional officer and show him using the system perfectly to disastrous effects). The command problem in the Chinese Army is a very serious one that's badly inhibting their ability to build a modern army.

From the discussions that he's participated in, he seems to indicate a belief that at least some PLA units (i.e. 38th and 39th Group Armies) are capable of combined arms capability.

The problem is not that some of their glossy units don't have combined arms forces, they do. The problem is they can't get those forces to work with their existing command control systems and generation of officers. They need to change both and how to do that is teh subject of a ,lot of anguished thought.

[MKSheppard]

Motorized isn't mechanized and 'completely' is bending things a bit. Most Chinese divisions have truck units for their logistical tail and usually enough motor lift for one battalion of infantry.

Well, the Chinese have been working hard on that, they've been producing BMP clones (now with 30mm turrets), 6x6 Wheeled APCs, 6x6 Wheeled IFVs, two different types of Amphibious IFVs, and an Airborne IFV -- with possibly a 8x8 Wheeled APC/IFV Family in the future -- prototypes have been seen wheeling around Chinese roads and been photographed.

It's really hard to put a precise number on just how many vehicles they've produced, but the PLA is a lot better off than it was 10 years ago -- it's just that the PLA is so huge that all this is just a drop in the bucket...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It occurs to me that all those Hainan class FACs and so on with their 2 x twin 57mm and 2 x twin 25mm would be enormously useful for anti-harpy defence of convoys inside of Hell, however. Especially since they're ASW, so they've also got anti-sub mortars that could be used against submerged baldricks. So the PLAN would, I think, certainly have a role, the same as the PLAAF.

[Sea Skimmer]

I don’t think the guns on those sub chasers are stabilized, and they lack anything but optical fire control, AA effectiveness will be low in anything but flat calm water. China however does have all those thousands of 37mm cloud seeding guns to draw on though, which are probably sufficient to arm a hundreds of merchant ships to WW2 attack transport standards. Merchant ships roll a lot slower, so simply bolt gun can be much more accurate. I wouldn’t be surprised if Chinese shipyards have already started building some new LSTs as well; the LST died because of the growing weight of modern tanks, but we don’t really need anything heavier then a Sherman or BMP-3 for this war.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Also keep in mind, while everyone is paying attention to hell, Earth didn't suddenly become one big, happy family. Everyone still has their own agendas, and China could very well decide now is the right time to make a play for Taiwan.