Master of Ossus wrote:DumbShit, how can we show errors in your opinions if you refuse to acknowledge the errors in your posts, instead merely telling us again that we are wrong. I think that you are the one who is not showing any errors? All that you have done since the debate started is continuously repeat "You're wrong. That's not what we know is going on, from the dialogue, and because other ships have been seen at warp without warp star effects." When someone points out a problem with that, you just repeat your basic points while occasionally altering the phrasing, a bit.
Ossus, would you stop being a fucking liar for one second? Just one!
You sit there and say that I repeat myself, while you sit there repeating yourself giving me cause. You say I don't change my argument... well, give me a fucking reason to, dipshit! Crying like a baby isn't a reason.
The facts I posted at the start of this thread are as overwhelming to Poe's position now as they were before... his argument is bunk, and it has been debunked.
That there were no warp stars after the separation of the ship.
You think that means there was no warp drive being used. That is an error on your part, for reasons explained over and over during the 11 pages of this neverending thread.
DarkStar, if you assume that ships can be at warp when there are no warp stars, are we to assume that runabouts routinely go through the wormhole at warp? Are you saying that DS9 can be moving at warp? Why would these not be the case, if starships can move at warp without appearing like they are moving at warp?
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Setesh wrote:Thanks Darkstar I knew you'd be good for a laugh.
You accept dissenting opinions but they are irrelivent. ROTFLMFAO. Opinions irrelivent in a debate.
(Mike you gotta save that one on your dumb trekkie argument list.)
Opinions are irrelevant. Facts are not. Poe's opinion is that the Enterprise wasn't at warp. His opinion is irrelevant... now, if he had facts to back that up, he might get somewhere, but he doesn't, so he didn't.
Your argument isn't fact either. Its your opinion they were at warp. You are trying to persuade us that your opinion is right. If opinion is irrelivent than so is your whole case sinse the canon does not state the issue one way or the other. Also has it occured to you that they have a very large civilian filled reason for dropping out of warp.
Also the 'modest sized galaxy' bit, did it not occur to you that since this is Tarkin's view that, with his bigger is better mindset. he is judging the galaxy's size by the largest galaxy not the average for all total galaxies. Or that it is average sized for that corner of the universe.
"Nobody ever inferred from the multiple infirmities of Windows that Bill Gates was infinitely benevolent, omniscient, and able to fix everything. " Argument against god's perfection.
Setesh wrote:Thanks Darkstar I knew you'd be good for a laugh.
You accept dissenting opinions but they are irrelivent. ROTFLMFAO. Opinions irrelivent in a debate.
(Mike you gotta save that one on your dumb trekkie argument list.)
Opinions are irrelevant. Facts are not. Poe's opinion is that the Enterprise wasn't at warp. His opinion is irrelevant... now, if he had facts to back that up, he might get somewhere, but he doesn't, so he didn't.
Your argument isn't fact either. Its your opinion they were at warp. You are trying to persuade us that your opinion is right. If opinion is irrelivent than so is your whole case sinse the canon does not state the issue one way or the other. Also has it occured to you that they have a very large civilian filled reason for dropping out of warp.
Also the 'modest sized galaxy' bit, did it not occur to you that since this is Tarkin's view that, with his bigger is better mindset. he is judging the galaxy's size by the largest galaxy not the average for all total galaxies. Or that it is average sized for that corner of the universe.
1. It is a fact that warp is represented without warp stars. This requires us to judge based on the situation. The situation in this case demonstrates that it is impossible the ship was not at warp. Therefore, it is a fact that the ship was at warp.
It was already a fact to begin with, but stupid warsies with foolish opinions tried to cloud that fact.
"1. It is a fact that warp is represented without warp stars. This requires us to judge based on the situation. The situation in this case demonstrates that it is impossible the ship was not at warp. Therefore, it is a fact that the ship was at warp. "
Circular logic ladies and gentlement.
"Your superior intelligect is no match for our primitive weapons!" -Kaang
"So tiny, you can't tell it's a deus ex machina!" -The Particles of Star Trek
Dorkstar, I'm pretty sure Tarkin didn't say "We live in a modest _dwarf_ galaxy," did he? In fact, the canon visuals from AOTC show that the SW galaxy is a large spiral galaxy with surrounding dwarf galaxies. Except that the SW galaxy is 120,000 Ly across while ours is only ~100,000.
DumbShit, you somehow picked up the bizarre notion that we should judge whether or not ships are at warp by the situation that they are in. Are we to assume that the Klingon ships attacking DS9 in WotW were strafing it at warp speed because it would make sense for them to do so? Or does it make more sense that they were not at warp because they are incapable of warp-strafing? You have clearly thrown Occam's Razor to the wind! Either that, or you are using dialogue to override visual evidence because you are trusting the characters to say that they are at warp, when in fact they were not. (or you are trusting that we would have seen the characters ordering them to drop out of warp, but either way, you are an idiot.)
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
DarkStar wrote:
Opinions are irrelevant. Facts are not. Poe's opinion is that the Enterprise wasn't at warp. His opinion is irrelevant... now, if he had facts to back that up, he might get somewhere, but he doesn't, so he didn't.
Your argument isn't fact either. Its your opinion they were at warp. You are trying to persuade us that your opinion is right. If opinion is irrelivent than so is your whole case sinse the canon does not state the issue one way or the other. Also has it occured to you that they have a very large civilian filled reason for dropping out of warp.
Also the 'modest sized galaxy' bit, did it not occur to you that since this is Tarkin's view that, with his bigger is better mindset. he is judging the galaxy's size by the largest galaxy not the average for all total galaxies. Or that it is average sized for that corner of the universe.
1. It is a fact that warp is represented without warp stars. This requires us to judge based on the situation. The situation in this case demonstrates that it is impossible the ship was not at warp. Therefore, it is a fact that the ship was at warp.
It was already a fact to begin with, but stupid warsies with foolish opinions tried to cloud that fact.
In the Local Group, there's only one out of 40 larger than 120,000 ly.
1.If they were going at warp it would really suck to be in the saucer section, if you haven't notice rapid loss of warp speed tends to throw people about. The situation has no requirement that they be at warp speed to make the turn. It actually makes less sense to be at warp and ram the saucer from the rear when it drops out of warp. To prevent colision they must go slower than the saucer or the same speed and move away verticaly or pass through it faster than even Data's reaction time.
2.Fallacy, this is from our point of observation, not Tarkin's. The local group for SW may be far larger on average. Remember
Far., far, away
Not to metion it's Tarkin's opinion, who just said opinions are irrelivent.
"Nobody ever inferred from the multiple infirmities of Windows that Bill Gates was infinitely benevolent, omniscient, and able to fix everything. " Argument against god's perfection.
It takes the Saucer section 2 mins to drop out of Warp (Ref Brothers) and since the sep takes place at Warp (we see warp stars during it) that mines the shot of the actual turn must be either at warp or takes place > 2 mins after the actual sep which doesnt fit with the other events of the sep.
The reason a say this is because as everyone has said if they are at warp that should be gone in a frame thus the saucer cant be at warp either which points to above conclusion which seem out landish of course Darkstar may be right.......
Vapthorne wrote:"1. It is a fact that warp is represented without warp stars. This requires us to judge based on the situation. The situation in this case demonstrates that it is impossible the ship was not at warp. Therefore, it is a fact that the ship was at warp. "
Circular logic ladies and gentlement.
It would only be circular if the example of ships travelling at warp without warp stars was the same one we're arguing about.
Doomriser wrote:Dorkstar, I'm pretty sure Tarkin didn't say "We live in a modest _dwarf_ galaxy," did he?
The novel said "galaxy". This is inclusive of dwarves, giants, et cetera.
Bear in mind, also, that I have been generous by refusing to count any dwarves below 10,000 light-years, and by comparing to only the biggest and brightest in the area.
Setesh wrote:Fallacy, this is from our point of observation, not Tarkin's. The local group for SW may be far larger on average. Remember
Possible, but unlikely. From what we know of the universe, even our own galaxy would be extremely difficult to construe as "modest-sized".
DarkStar wrote:
The novel said "galaxy". This is inclusive of dwarves, giants, et cetera.
Bear in mind, also, that I have been generous by refusing to count any dwarves below 10,000 light-years, and by comparing to only the biggest and brightest in the area.
You've also ben generous to yourself by ignoring cannon visuals and just basing the size of the SW galaxy off it being called a 'galaxy'
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Doomriser wrote:Dorkstar, I'm pretty sure Tarkin didn't say "We live in a modest _dwarf_ galaxy," did he?
The novel said "galaxy". This is inclusive of dwarves, giants, et cetera.
Bear in mind, also, that I have been generous by refusing to count any dwarves below 10,000 light-years, and by comparing to only the biggest and brightest in the area.
Setesh wrote:Fallacy, this is from our point of observation, not Tarkin's. The local group for SW may be far larger on average. Remember
Possible, but unlikely. From what we know of the universe, even our own galaxy would be extremely difficult to construe as "modest-sized".
Strange, I do this and you cry 'suspention of disbelief'
"Nobody ever inferred from the multiple infirmities of Windows that Bill Gates was infinitely benevolent, omniscient, and able to fix everything. " Argument against god's perfection.
DarkStar wrote:
The novel said "galaxy". This is inclusive of dwarves, giants, et cetera.
Bear in mind, also, that I have been generous by refusing to count any dwarves below 10,000 light-years, and by comparing to only the biggest and brightest in the area.
You've also ben generous to yourself by ignoring cannon visuals and just basing the size of the SW galaxy off it being called a 'galaxy'
Let's not forget that I ignored Obi-Wan pointing out the Riche Maze (which looked like a satellite galaxy), with the position of Kamino being shown as near the center of the main galaxy of the picture. Quoted distance: 12 parsecs.
How is it a false analogy, we both are using real world sci-fact to interpret sci-fic-canon. And quite saying your opinion is fact. It is your opinion they were at warp. You have yet to prove it.
P.S. the riche maze was not a satalite galaxy, at no time does Kenobi point to one of the satalight galaxies. The 'maze' is the cloud-like formation in the top left corner after zoom in, its far smaller than either satalight galaxy.
In the full size map you can just barely see it.
"Nobody ever inferred from the multiple infirmities of Windows that Bill Gates was infinitely benevolent, omniscient, and able to fix everything. " Argument against god's perfection.
Setesh wrote:How is it a false analogy, we both are using real world sci-fact to interpret sci-fic-canon. And quite saying your opinion is fact. It is your opinion they were at warp. You have yet to prove it.
You have yet to disprove it. Warsies attacked the obvious, I defended the obvious. You still have to disprove the obvious and my defense thereof.
P.S. the riche maze was not a satalite galaxy, at no time does Kenobi point to one of the satalight galaxies. The 'maze' is the cloud-like formation in the top left corner after zoom in, its far smaller than either satalight galaxy.
In the full size map you can just barely see it.
If his finger was sitting on the screen during the zoomed-out part, then he pointed to a satellite galaxy (or other extragalactic object). It was only after his pointing that the zoom-in occurred.
Setesh wrote:How is it a false analogy, we both are using real world sci-fact to interpret sci-fic-canon. And quite saying your opinion is fact. It is your opinion they were at warp. You have yet to prove it.
You have yet to disprove it. Warsies attacked the obvious, I defended the obvious. You still have to disprove the obvious and my defense thereof.
LMAO! Who is the burden of proof on? We have to disprove nothing. It is up to the person who made the claim to prove that it would work. You have made a claim. It is not our duty to disprove it, it is your duty to prove it. You cannot transfer the burden of proof, which you attempt to do constantly.
DarkStar wrote:
P.S. the riche maze was not a satalite galaxy, at no time does Kenobi point to one of the satalight galaxies. The 'maze' is the cloud-like formation in the top left corner after zoom in, its far smaller than either satalight galaxy.
In the full size map you can just barely see it.
If his finger was sitting on the screen during the zoomed-out part, then he pointed to a satellite galaxy (or other extragalactic object). It was only after his pointing that the zoom-in occurred.
Who care's? It has no impact whatsoever on the Empire, so I will ignore this. Trust me, though DumbShit, you are wrong on this proving that the OR is not a galactic government.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
In a real-life discussion, if someone disagrees with me and refuses to be swayed, I stop trying pretty soon. If what they disagree with is obvious or a known fact, "pretty soon" is after 2 or 3 tries. If I show them the evidence and they still willfully refuse to concede, then it's once. None of you are gg to change DarkStar's mind, at least not without physical force, yet here we are on page 12. I'm neutral on this and I don't care too much for ST OR SW, but even I can see who is right here--everyone except DarkStar. You don't need to hammer on it for 12 pages. You all are starting to sound like the crazies in the back of the bus.
What a world, what a world! Who would have thought that a little girl could destroy my wickedness?
oberon: Actually neither is wrong but they dont realise it.
DarkStar Claims the the Warp Star effect (or lack there of) isnt proof of Warp Drive.
He then uses observation (and he could also use a canon quote about how long it takes saucer to drop from Warp (also noted in the TM)) to show that that both parts must still be at warp during the turn.
Now unless there is a 2 minute time lapse between the Sep and the turn in which for some reaons the stardrive stays very close to the saucer and matches speed hes right.
The other side of the situation is No Warp Stars = No Warp.
So it comes down to taking observed canon evidence and quotes against Visual evidence (which DarkStar disputes but I dont think he gave evidence for).
However I dont expecty a response because this thread became a flame fest about 8 pages back.
That there were no warp stars after the separation of the ship.
You think that means there was no warp drive being used. That is an error on your part, for reasons explained over and over during the 11 pages of this neverending thread.
The Darkling: oh, well then it just comes down to evidence and credibility. Perhaps the argument needs more evidence, if it devolves to this- nothing but word-bandying. And G2K has 0 credibility, I've seen Kynes plant demo charges and totally destroy G2K AKA DickStare.
What a world, what a world! Who would have thought that a little girl could destroy my wickedness?
oberon: I try to judge an argument on its own merits and not those of the person who raises it however as soon as Darkstar brings an argument up its shot down without a chance.
He can take things too far and his debating skills arent the best in the universe but I wont dismiss anyone out of hand.
