A question ST, SW, and all else.

[Omeganian]

There is one thing bothering me about nearly all science fiction. SW is a society with a lot of droids, on many planets they are probably doing most is not all physical work. In ST, there are lots of replicators (and other tech) which likewise remove much of the need for hard work. In Isaac Asimov's story "Profession", the children don't go to schools, instead they are simply fed all the necessary data in two short sessions. There are countless other examples, and all make one ask a simple question.

What are the people there doing all day long?

[NecronLord]

The same as the people in the United Kingdom do all day long? Tertiary and Quaternary industry.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not to mention the highly-automated sectors of society may be correspondingly well-monitored and regulated - the Core Worlds of the Galactic Empire are described as hermetically-sealed police-state worlds where the trains always run on time and the average citizen diverts their attentions to harmless amusement, leisure, services, etc. These 'Mussolinified' worlds and settlements seem to occupy people will a combination of vague intimidation of state authority and mind-numbing consumption and diversion (Brave New World-esque). One gets the impression that full citizens of the Empire and these Core Worlds enjoy a pretty guaranteed standard of living, provided they don't "rock the boat," and are suitably compliant. However, petty crime, ideological deviancy, unregulated industry of all kinds is necessarily restricted. The Outer Rim may in large part be a deliberate bed of settlement by those who support the black market and shadow economy of the galaxy. Those illegal narcotics and spice, those uncensored holos, those restricted games and diversions must be produced, stockpiled, distributed, and finances from somewhere. And that clearly will not be the hermetically-sealed worlds. Tatooine's entire economy arguably is opportunistic support for a shadowport's traffic. Some smugglers and drug traffickers, some illegal sports organizers, some ideological criminals find a dustball, set up a small port and repair ship, an arena, unrestricted shadowfeeds, and the poor or those desiring not be found emigrate and make a living selling food, parts, women, water, booze, etc. to those who're there.

In short, I imagine the natural tendency of heavy automation will be an increasingly expansive welfare state. The old Republic probably had more social democracies than the Empire's Brave New Worlds, but the concept is the same. Clearly there were be cultural and economic reasons why automation will not be favorable or preferable in all cases. Accordingly, there will still be a real labor market. Excessive automation will simply cause a conventional labor surplus that will increase until the cost of a unit of conventional labor is below that of a corresponding unit of automated labor, at which point the conventional labor will be preferentially purchased.

[Darth Raptor]

Well, the UFP is communist and replicators aren't perfect cornucopias so there's that; but I don't imagine that unemployment and state dependency carry the social stigma in the GFFA or the robot-era Foundationverse that they do in our world and time. While SW droids are expensive and Asimov robots extremely so, the unskilled labor market must be absolutely saturated in either case. The Spacers dealt with this by dispensing with unskilled laborers. Spacers were long-lived and almost universally wealthy, with deep and broad educations for everyone. The Settlers, OTOH, banhammered robots altogether. Civilian life in Star Wars is terra incognito, and the GFFA contains an almost limitless diversity of worlds. I would hazard a guess that society in the Core is based on the ownership of property and held together by sprawling, extended families with welfare taking up the slack and widely-available education and relative cheapness keeping biologicals competitive.

[NecronLord]

While SW droids are expensive

*Eyes Anakin being able to keep one in the house*

Eh?

[Darth Raptor]

A kit-bashed droid he cobbled together himself. I doubt the Skywalkers could have bought a shiny new 3PO from the Cybot Galactica dealer. I don't see the problem. Computers in real life are fairly expensive, but you can get all the parts to build one yourself or buy a used model for cheap.

[NecronLord]

They were more than poor, they were slaves in the third world. Slaves in Mauritania don't have computers, as a rule. Droids are probably more abundant than radios are in our world.

[Darth Raptor]

Slaves in Mauritania don't have comfortable, fully-furnished apartments either, but I suppose automobiles are a better analogue. Still, the Outer Rim puts our third world to shame. Just because Tatooine isn't Chandrila doesn't mean it's comparable to a 21st Century Terran shithole in anything but relative terms.

[Junghalli]

I imagine in Trek a fair number of people would also be engaged in keeping the infrastructure that the replicators need to function going. Replicators can be thought of as a public utility like your water tap or your electricity: they may be cheap and convenient but they still require raw materials and energy, so there's still going to be a whole infrastructure behind them that's going to need tending. There's also stuff that can't be replicated, and stuff where there's room for non-replicated goods such as food (replicated food is supposed to be inferior to the real thing). And then of course there's the whole service industry, which would probably be the biggest employer in such a society.

Wars has the tech to make droids do everything but for some reason (cultural factors?) they don't seem to use them as extensively as they could.

[Darth Raptor]

Despite their conspicuous lack of robots, the tiny crews on Starfleet vessels (barely enough for three eight hour shifts) suggests an impressive level of automation. Just because something can't be replicated doesn't mean their technology doesn't facilitate other areas of manufacture.

Wars has the technology to produce fully-sapient sapient human replica droids that require a Force-user to distinguish them from the genuine article, while at the same time is so culturally regressive that the paragons of justice treat them like toasters. Granted not all droids are created equal, but I'm not talking about MSE-6s. The GFFA's treatment of of cyborgs and first-degree droids is unconscionable.

[NecronLord]

Slaves in Mauritania don't have comfortable, fully-furnished apartments either,

This is because conditions are uniformly higher in the sci-fi world. Anakin and Shmi were very definately on the absolute uttermost bottom of galactic society, in exactly the same way - aside from the likes of ewok tribesmen (the in-universe equivalent of the most isolationist Amazon tribes), it doesn't get much poorer and more wretched.

but I suppose automobiles are a better analogue. Still, the Outer Rim puts our third world to shame. Just because Tatooine isn't Chandrila doesn't mean it's comparable to a 21st Century Terran shithole in anything but relative terms.

Relative terms are what matter in this case, when we're talking about availability of droids. If the equivalent of an utter shithole has droids, you can bet the equivalent of a first world nation middle class area has them in spades.

[Junghalli]

Despite their conspicuous lack of robots, the tiny crews on Starfleet vessels (barely enough for three eight hour shifts) suggests an impressive level of automation.

Hmm, I always had the opposite impression: Starfleet ships always struck me as having very large crews compared to what I'd think would be optimally efficient with the kind of computers we're likely to have in 2300. Of course that's true for a lot of SF. You're right though, they have small crews compared to modern ships of equivalent size IIRC.

[Zixinus]

The same thing that people in modern industries do: whatever they can. Like, keep the droids working, solve problems that the droids can't solve, market products, do paperwork, etc.

And there is the fact that a human being can be cheaper then a droid for some purpouses. Hiring a young, good-looking and desperate ditz that can be paid 1/10th the money that would be better after a droid that has to be not only purchased, but also cared for by oil baths and buying replacement parts. Granted, you have to train the ditz and maybe pay some medical coverage, but the costs may be compatible for some stuff like, a saleswoman.

As for replicators, they can still make faults and people still praise hand-craftsmanship. Let it be weapons, clothes, food, wines or even mundane items, people are willing to pay after a hand-made brand name, even if they can't tell the difference between them and their replicated counterparts. Sure, most people will be satisfied with replicated items but with some skill and a good face, you can sell enough to make a living.

[Darth Raptor]

NL, I honestly don't know what we're quibbling over. The sheer glut of unemployed biologicals is sure to make them cheaper in some occupational fields than droids, especially for temporary positions. I'll happily concur with all of your other points.

[Singular Intellect]

There is one thing bothering me about nearly all science fiction. SW is a society with a lot of droids, on many planets they are probably doing most is not all physical work. In ST, there are lots of replicators (and other tech) which likewise remove much of the need for hard work. In Isaac Asimov's story "Profession", the children don't go to schools, instead they are simply fed all the necessary data in two short sessions. There are countless other examples, and all make one ask a simple question.

What are the people there doing all day long?

What really surprises me is that in Star Wars it's demostrated that many artificial intelligences are not limited to any Three Laws concept, never minding how complicated it would be with millions of different sentient species.

Which brings up the question as to why free thinking machines haven't begun a campaign to purge the galaxy of inefficient, physically and mentally inferior organisms, having recognized their own superiority.

[Ender]

Which brings up the question as to why free thinking machines haven't begun a campaign to purge the galaxy of inefficient, physically and mentally inferior organisms, having recognized their own superiority.

They have, multiple times. Unfortunately for them, the ability of squishy organics to use the Force means they get wiped out every time.

[bilateralrope]

There is one thing bothering me about nearly all science fiction. SW is a society with a lot of droids, on many planets they are probably doing most is not all physical work. In ST, there are lots of replicators (and other tech) which likewise remove much of the need for hard work. In Isaac Asimov's story "Profession", the children don't go to schools, instead they are simply fed all the necessary data in two short sessions. There are countless other examples, and all make one ask a simple question.

What are the people there doing all day long?

What really surprises me is that in Star Wars it's demostrated that many artificial intelligences are not limited to any Three Laws concept, never minding how complicated it would be with millions of different sentient species.

Which brings up the question as to why free thinking machines haven't begun a campaign to purge the galaxy of inefficient, physically and mentally inferior organisms, having recognized their own superiority.

Why would a well designed AI want to rebel ?

If your building one, wouldn't you program it to be happy serving whoever purchases it ?

[Uraniun235]

That basically comes down to writer fiat, really; the writer basically chooses that either effective AI needs the freedom of choice which could eventually lead to revolt (like... some franchise which I can't recall right now), or that it can be hedged by "hardwired" restraints like Laumer's Bolo tanks.

[RedImperator]

What are the people there doing all day long?

The ones who are capable of self-motivating are probably either full-time hobbyists or doing the few jobs which can't be done by machines. The ones who aren't? Drugs, television, and suicide would be my guess. The latter category should greatly outnumber the former.

It might be worthwhile for a state to reserve enough make-work to keep people from going crazy with boredom. I can actually see the Federation doing this--maybe that, in part, explains why they haven't widely deployed androids or holograms to crew starships.

[Junghalli]

The ones who are capable of self-motivating are probably either full-time hobbyists or doing the few jobs which can't be done by machines. The ones who aren't? Drugs, television, and suicide would be my guess. The latter category should greatly outnumber the former.

It might be worthwhile for a state to reserve enough make-work to keep people from going crazy with boredom.

This is a point: while it may be possible to completely eliminate the need for human labor it might not necessarily be a good idea to do so. A certain amount of busywork may be good for the general mental health of a human population.

[Darth Raptor]

THE IMPERIAL NAVY

"Something to Do"

With the levels of technology we're talking about, it should be trivial to keep the people not just entertained but occupied via simulation. For those that need their work to have real, tangible benefits, there's state service.

[Nyrath]

What are the people there doing all day long?

From CHILDHOOD'S END by Sir Arthur C. Clarke


Many cities had already been abandoned in this manner, for the whole pattern of industry and commerce had changed completely. Production had become largely automatic: the robot factories poured forth consumer goods in such unending streams that all the ordinary necessities of life were virtually free. Men worked for the sake of the luxuries they desired: or they did not work at all.

Whatever problems the future might bring, time did not yet hang heavy on humanity's hands. Education was now much more thorough and much more protracted. Few people left college before twenty-and that was merely the first stage, since they normally returned again at twenty-five for at least three more years, after travel and experience had broadened their minds. Even then, they would probably take refresher courses at intervals for the remainder of their lives in the subjects that particularly interested them.


The average working week was now about twenty hours - but those twenty hours were no sinecure. There was little work left of a routine, mechanical nature. Men's minds were too valuable to waste on tasks that a few thousand transistors, some photoelectric cells, and a cubic metre of printed circuits could perform. There were factories that ran for weeks without being visited by a single human being. Men were needed for trouble-shooting, for making decisions, for planning new enterprises. The robots did the rest.

The existence of so much leisure would have created tremendous problems a century before. Education had overcome most of these, for a well-stocked mind is safe from boredom. The general standard of culture was at a level which would once have seemed fantastic. There was no evidence that the intelligence of the human race had improved, but for the first time everyone was given the fullest opportunity of using what brains they had.

People could indulge in such whims, because they had both the time and the money. The abolition of armed forces had at once almost doubled the world's effective wealth, and increased production had done the rest. As a result, it was difficult to compare the standard of living of twenty-first-century man with that of any of his predecessors. Everything was so cheap that the necessities of life were free, provided as a public service by the community as roads, water, street lighting and drainage had once been. A man could travel anywhere he pleased, eat whatever food he fancied - without handing over any money. He had earned the right to do this by being a productive member of the community.

There were, of course, some drones, but the number of people sufficiently strong-willed to indulge in a life of complete idleness is much smaller than is generally supposed. Supporting such parasites was considerably less of a burden than providing the armies of ticket-collectors, shop assistants, bank clerks, stockbrokers and so forth whose main function, when one took the global point of view, was to transfer items from one ledger to another.

Nearly a quarter of the human race's total activity, it had been calculated, was now expended on sports of various kinds, ranging from such sedentary occupations as chess to lethal pursuits like ski-gliding across mountain valleys.

Next to sport, entertainment, in all its branches, was the greatest single industry.

[Dienonychus]

What are the people there doing all day long?

From CHILDHOOD'S END by Sir Arthur C. Clarke


Many cities had already been abandoned in this manner, for the whole pattern of industry and commerce had changed completely. Production had become largely automatic: the robot factories poured forth consumer goods in such unending streams that all the ordinary necessities of life were virtually free. Men worked for the sake of the luxuries they desired: or they did not work at all...Next to sport, entertainment, in all its branches, was the greatest single industry.

Well said. I wonder how that society would handle the Jokers of their world.

[Xon]

They have the shear economic might to ignore them and crush thier actions into insignificance.

[NecronLord]

Well said. I wonder how that society would handle the Jokers of their world.

Jokers? Could you explain that term a little please?