How would you vote on a referendum for the Lisbon treaty?

[Straha]

Forgive the slightly awkward title. It's the only thing that would fit.

For the Europeans: If your country had a referendum on whether or not it would accept the "Treaty of Lisbon amending the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community" known much more simply as the Lisbon Treaty, how would you vote? And do you feel that you should have a referendum or not?

For the rest of us buggers: In principle would you accept the idea of the Lisbon treaty?

As reference: Here is the full Lisbon Treaty if you are somehow compelled to read it.

Here is a link to how the treaties would read after the Lisbon amending process.

[Dartzap]

I honestly don't know any more, one way or the other anymore. On one hand, a nice big state with a big stick sounds good, on the other hand, massive government does have a tendency to balls up on every other occasion, unless it has a proper horde of well paid independent civil servants to control the politicians.

Of course, you cant really see the reality of it from here, the media does such a great job of muddying the claypit-like waters, heh.

[Teebs]

The treaty really is mostly a clearing up operation and there isn't anything in it that offends me particularly, so yes.

[Ubiquitous]

I really have no desire to even care about yet an other poorly worded treaty. Fuck them. Come back when you can form a treaty that the regular people of Europe can understand and support.

[Balrog]

I'm just surprised that the French PM thought it was an "American neoconservative" conspiracy which resulted in Ireland voting it down. When in doubt, blame the US!

[Netko]

I really have no desire to even care about yet an other poorly worded treaty. Fuck them. Come back when you can form a treaty that the regular people of Europe can understand and support.

And that is the reason why this treaty should have been pushed through parliaments and not left up to the voters. It is an extremely complex piece of legislation but, in essence, as Teebs notes, its mostly a clearing up of the mishmash of treaties that currently govern the EU, while making the decision-making more efficient, democratic (there is a bunch of decisions that previously could be made by the Commission alone, that now have to have EU Parliamentary support), plus (and this is obviously pretty important to me considering my location) allowing expansion - the current candidates (Croatia, Macedonia and Turkey) can't join until the internal structure is fixed because it is currently limited by treaty to 27 members.

Ireland, by forcing the referendum on such an, essentially, bland treaty allowed it to be shot down, and thus causing a crisis - there was very little the YES side could have done considering the treaty's necessary complex structure, while the complexity allowed the NO side to create outright falsehoods (that it would force unrestricted abortion etc.) which, combined with the default NO that you display, allowed them to win.

[Teebs]

To be fair to Ireland they have a constitutional requirement that they hold referendums on international treaties which I think they did to strengthen their neutrality, so it wasn't like their politicians were desperate for a vote.

[Karza]

I'd vote yes, but I don't think treaties like this should be subjected to a referendum at all. The vast majority of voters will have no fucking clue about the treaty's particulars as usual (and no interest learning them either), and thus won't make an informed decision.

[Darth Tanner]

I'd vote no on the constituti... sorry treaty. Although not for the anti-Europe attitude implied in the voting option.

I'd like a constitution that didn't write into stone every single crappy EU piece of protectionist legislation and allowed at least the hope for reform and maybe even mentioned a few civil rights or democratic origins. I also find many parts of the EUs hostility to the Irish over their vote vaguely offensive and so would tend to side with them regardless of the actual content of the constitution.

Overall however I'd probably not bother as voting in a EU referendum is like blowing into the wind. It changes nought.

On one hand, a nice big state with a big stick sounds good

True, I love the fact that technically we are now wealthier than the USA. Although the plans for the EU army seem to be rather slap dash.

[Siege]

True, I love the fact that technically we are now wealthier than the USA. Although the plans for the EU army seem to be rather slap dash.

Which I myself am actually quite happy with. As long as the Americans will happily spend a gazillion dollars a year on fancy planes and an outrageously huge army we don't have to. Besides, you just know there won't be an end to the jingoist whining the moment nationalist French politicians figure out that French troops might be serving under a German superior officer, etc.

No, thank you very much. Let's just stick with the token rapid intervention force and not do a grand army of Europe quite yet, please.

As for the treaty, I voted yes because I think it's a marked improvement over the current way the EU is governed. That's not to say it'd be the ideal system quite yet, but any step forward is better than nothing, and Rome wasn't built in a day either.

I'm also against referendums on subjects like this - back when this 'treaty' was still called a 'constitution' we had a vote over here same as the Irish recently did and the result was predictable: people didn't know what the fuck they were voting for, and so they went with "I dun' like Yurp cuz, like, stuff's more expensive now that we got the Euro" (except that it really wasn't, and even if it was, voting against the constitution is going to do fuck-all about the Euro!)

Seriously, people barely know what the hell they're voting for in national elections -- a referendum about something as distant as a European constitution is just begging to be hijacked by dishonest twats with an agenda.

[Tiriol]

While I heartily support efforts to streamline the convoluted EU politics and tighten the leash on EU bureaucracy, I find it somewhat distressing that there wasn't even any attempt to explain even the main points of the treaty to the citizens, which made it pretty easy to make it look like something that would take away independence etc. I also think it's offensive how the French politicians have treated Ireland's decision: the President all but demanded a new vote and the Foreign Minister threatened with repercussions for Ireland.

The French Empire has been gone for over half a century and their glory days are long past, but they/French ruling politicians still treat others as their personal serfs.

[Lord Pounder]

I'm an activist for a very pro-Europe party, however I completely reject this treaty. Here in the UK we've devolded a lot of power to the individual government and with the exception of my own small part of the UK this has worked out pretty well.

My take of Lisbon is that it'll great an unstoppable juggernaut of a bureaucracy. If Brown had the balls he was born with he'd have the guts to allow the people a vote on the matter, as was one of his election promises IIRC.