Children as Athiests?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-27 01:48pm

Here's a serious question that I as a parent have been mulling over for some time. My daughter just started private school this year. She is starting to get indoctrinated in the Catholic faith as I was when I went to private school. (Here in NYC it is very difficult to find a good public school, it is almost mandatory to send your kids to private school if you want them to get far)

As I have grown up I have shed many of the ridiculous beliefs I was brainwashed with while still holding on to my faith that there is a god, somehwere, but that's neither here nor there. As I watch her and she starts soaking this stuff up, I can see where the pitfalls are, the traps that I nearly fell into and the insidious way that it creeps into her thought processes and I started to wonder whether I should counter the programming with some of my own, add a little cynicism to her indoctrination, make her ask questions.

She is only 5, so maybe I'm overreacting, or am I?

IF you are an athiest or even agnostic, would you raise your child in that environment or would you, as I am inclined to do, let her come to her own decisions when she's old enough?? I mean which is better, to let her ask her own questions, or ask those questions for her?

PLEASE, no religion bashing or fundie jokes, there's a THOUSAND other threads that you can do that in, let's focus on the question and I am particurlaly interested to hear from other parents.

God Emperor · Post by **God Emperor** » 2003-01-27 01:58pm

I would have to say that you should let her ask her own questions, but intruduce her to other ideals, she must decide what to believe for herself.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-01-27 02:07pm

Give her a stong education and understanding into science. I was never able to accept what my mom told me about god and what not with what I knew over science. Ofcourse I was about 9 years older at that time, but still... I dunno.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-01-27 02:13pm

Im not a parent so I cant honestly say what I would do, but I would lean towards letting her ask her own questoins. I personally might not send my child to a Catholic school but I understand your concern about education. My best friends are moving to a better area so their child can get a better education. I cant fault them for that.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-01-27 02:14pm

You don't seek the answers if you don't ask the questions, I myself am not a parent but all the same, the education she'll get at this time of her life will dictate to some extent how she does later in life... I would say guide her and as the others said, let her find her own way

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2003-01-27 02:19pm

Make sure she has a well rounded education with science and different belief systems, then let her decide on her own. If you want to encourage logical thinking, then just push science and logic a little more on her, but I wouldn't just show or push cynical realization of the true world on her, it should be up to her what her beliefs are (to push logical belief on her would be somewhat better [my bias] but still a lot like the brainwashing down by christians or catholics). Just my opinion on your situation though, its really all up to you as the parent. Hope this helps.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-27 02:23pm

Thanks alot guys, its good to hear some other voices in this debate I've been having with her mom concerning this aspect of her education. Sometimes its good to know you're not crazy when other folks are agreeing with you.

Hey who said parenting was easy?

On a side note, no one really tells you just how incredibly powerful your decisions are later on in life, because as you decide things fro your child, the reprecussions will follow them the rest of their lives.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-01-27 02:37pm

Stravo wrote:IF you are an athiest or even agnostic, would you raise your child in that environment or would you, as I am inclined to do, let her come to her own decisions when she's old enough?? I mean which is better, to let her ask her own questions, or ask those questions for her?

Well, I was raised as a christian and ridding yourself of a life time of christian indoctrination is neither easy nor fun.
I was about 15 when I started to think about religions and subsequently to doubt my faith, it took 5 years until I finaly came to admit to myself and to others that I am an atheist. That's five years of selfdoubt, guilt, even fear and as you can imagine that didn't really do wonders for myself esteem during that time. I would do ANYTHING to save my children, should i ever have some, from that ordeal!

Besides by countering the indoctrination she is getting at school you would simply encourage her to seek the thruth and as they say "the thruth will set you free".

My take on the matter is simple: Don't let her get brainwashed at school, better still find a school that won't brainwash her.
kids are impressionable, why do you think that most theist share the faith of their parents? People don't choose the religion with the best arquments, the best shrines or the best scriptures, they choose what ever religion they got showed down their throats as children. Spare her from this indoctrination will you, if she wants to convert to catholisism later in life, she'll at least make her own decision rather then accepting things based on childhood credulity.

In childhood our credulity serves us well. It helps us to pack, with extraordinary rapidity, our skulls full of the wisdom of our parents and our ancestors. But if we don't grow out of it in the fullness of time, our ... nature makes us a sitting target for astrologers, mediums, gurus, evangelists, and quacks. We need to replace the automatic credulity of childhood with the constructive skepticism of adult science.
-- Richard Dawkins

...the sooner the better.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-27 02:39pm

If you don't show someone other views, they will accept the views that are given to them.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-27 02:49pm

You know Stravo, i can credit the catholic schools for producing the well adjusted agnostic i am today....well that and an interest in science which was instilled in me at a young age by my mother. Science is the key. Also, i much as i cannot stand the current 'multi-cultural' movement, exposure to the belief systems of other cultures. That helps to show the folly of organized religion.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-01-27 02:53pm

Catholicism. About the time I was 17 through age 20 I was damn proud to be a Catholic. However I found that the rest of my fellow worshipers were nothing more than greedy, self centered, and believe because they attended church they could condem you. Suffice to say, I tossed away much of what I believed in because as I started to look, I saw it wasn't there. Not only that, but my father's side of the family is Southern Baptist. The relatives on that side have called my mom a number of times saying that we were going to hell for being Catholic. I would almost say that religion would help your daughter learn morals and codes of conduct, but that would be a fucked up way of thinking. If she can learn rights and wrongs and how to respect people, then help her learn a more logical approach to the world. Religion should be a class you study, not a way of life.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-01-27 02:59pm

Stravo, I hope you read this.

You know that people, all people, are impressionable when ignorant. If she knows nothing, and people tell her something is true, she is likely to believe it. She may believe in Santa Claus still. If you do the 'santa' myth in your house, ask how susceptible she is to being programmed.

Kids should be force-fed knowledge to a degree, but faith is a vastly difficult thing to deal with. What I believe as a parent you have the opportunity to do is to TEACH HER HOW TO ASK QUESTIONS. Teach her the intelligent methods to examine, observe, and criticize. Without getting philosophical about it, naturally. But insist that she understand the fundamentals of learning and in expanding on knowledge. If you do that, hopefully she, like Mike and myself and others, will be able to observe the flaws easily in bad arguments, and then, if she chooses to believe in god, she isn't doing so just because that's what everyone says to believe in, but for a decent human reason, such as fear of mortality or a need to feel special in the universe or hope of benevolence and forgiveness.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-27 03:25pm

Yeah, best thing to do is to teach her not to accept everything at face value.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-27 03:49pm

Two questions? Is this a harcore Catholic School? Bible Thumper Elementary or is it a moderate school? And is she being taught to ask intelligent and rational questions about the world around her? Because if she gets a reasonable catholic education and learns to question things rather than blindly accepting them she'll be okay.

And what's her mother's stance on all of this?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-27 03:52pm

Stravo, as an atheist and father of two children with similar ages to your daughter, all I can say is that if you allow those people to indoctrinate her without interference or competition, you will let them take her mind captive. I strongly urge you to do whatever you can to counteract their programming. This doesn't necessarily mean pulling her out of the school (although that would be preferable, if any good alternative can be found), but immersive environments are highly conducive to low-level brainwashing.

At the very least, you must make sure she knows about other belief systems, the reasons why all religions are equally irrational, etc. Critical thought is a skill that some people never learn; it is never too early to start.

ReinnResauq · Post by **ReinnResauq** » 2003-01-27 04:07pm

Do what's best for your kid, Stravo. If going to a Catholic school will help her get far, then she should go to a Catholic school. As for her religion, talk to her. Let her ask YOU questions. I was raised in a pretty christian/creationist/racist environment but my mother was none of those and she continually talked to me (she screwed me up in innumerable other ways, but she did well on that account). If you teach her to apply logic and a healthy skeptical eye to everything she sees, then she will become an atheist. If you leave most of the teaching to the school, she will become a Catholic or whatever is popular with her peers at the time. In the end, it will always been the parents who truly decide who their child turns into.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-27 04:35pm

The school itself is not bible thumping at all, the vast majority of its staff and teachers are lay people and they seem to be pretty balanced in what they teach the kids in terms of science and such. I have no complaints about the lay side of her education, she's only 5 so the ABC's and basic Arithmatic is the meat of her studies right now, but as with all Catholic schools there is a class on religion and she will soon start classes for her First Communion.

Mind you as someone who was raised all his life as a Catholic and went to Catholic schools from K to Law School I am very comfortable in a Catholic environment and as a product of Jesuit education I have been taught to think critically and question certain things. But as a girl, she may not be given that oppurtunity (as far as I know, the Jesuits teach at all boy institutions in high school) Its become an issue to me lately because now she is talking about Jesus and Religion and although it is a child's very limited understanding of religion, I know that the hardcore programmng is coming very soon.

I am not an athiest so that is not what I want to teach her, BUT I do want her to avoid the BS minefields that I had to navigate as a young man. And don't get me wrong, if athiesm is the path she chooses I can respectv that without any issues, in fact I can understand why she'd chose it. So I guess that as a father it is my duty that she be given all the facts and let her decide.

Mike, you're right about the immersive environment, its what I went trouigh and the more I thought about it the more I saw what those scools can be like, but at teh same time, I want her to have a foundation in the religion I grew up in because its the one I partly believe in.

Complicated, I know but that's what parenting is all about I guess.

As to her mother, she has other prioroties in regard to my daughter, she is not a big issue thinker and sometimes that can be refreshing. But I do tend to look long term and I worry about these things. Her mother just wants to make sure she has her school uniforms cleaned and pressed, tuition paid and grades good.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-01-27 04:50pm

Stravo: Raise her as a rationalist.

There is no method better for dealing w/ anything then reason. People who are buried deep in faith or believe silly predestination and entitlement ideas are the kind of people who expect things in life and feel they've been ripped a new one when they don't get what they want. Teacher her to look for proof and common sense and a reason before she believes anything.

There is no more potentially helpful thing a human being can be taught.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-27 04:50pm

I think I have a relatively good idea. Record all religious arguments on this website that show the logical fallicies in the Bible and Christianity in general. Including this thread. When your daughter is mature enough to understand this website, show it to her. If it isn't around at that time, you will still have the most important text files that you think will help her understand the truth. It changed all of my beliefs about religion in several months. I'm sure if she is at least as open-minded as I am, she will understand all of the faults of religion. And if you change your mind in the future, you don't have to let her read the files. So the only thing you have to lose is several CD-Rs/CD-RWs.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-27 04:51pm

The best thing you can do is find out what she's being taught and how. Talk to her, her teachers and the school. If they do come off us the wrong kind of people, fund another school.

The other thing you can do to give her a good sense of morality is to teach her. Expose her to the concept of morality independent of the bible, because lets face it, it can be rather nasty book.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-27 05:09pm

I pretty much escape religious influence in my life when I was young. My Quaker mother didn't think it was right to make my go to meeting if I didn't want to. Though at the time it was because I wanted to sleep, not because of any real personal beliefs.

I'd make a considerable effort to find a non-religious school.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-01-27 05:16pm

think I have a relatively good idea. Record all religious arguments on this website that show the logical fallicies in the Bible and Christianity in general. Including this thread. When your daughter is mature enough to understand this website,

Sounds good until I realized Four words seared forever in my brain:

Trinity vs. Mary Poppins

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-01-27 05:17pm

I was brought up by atheists, who, IIRC, were always very paranoid I'd catch religion. Problem is, I'm fatally open minded , so I understand where they're coming from. however, when we were looking into a sixth form college, they avoided the local catholic school, despite it being one of the bets shocols in the area (by 16, I was pretty safe).

I think the most important thing is her education - send her to the best school, and let her religious and ethical foundation be constructed at home, as everyone else has said, by encouraging her to question everything she has dictated to her.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-27 05:24pm

Stravo wrote:
think I have a relatively good idea. Record all religious arguments on this website that show the logical fallicies in the Bible and Christianity in general. Including this thread. When your daughter is mature enough to understand this website,
Sounds good until I realized Four words seared forever in my brain:

Trinity vs. Mary Poppins

well mary poppins does have the flying umbrella...however the 1.21 gigawatt trinity lightning bolts may pose .......oh good grief, this place hs permanantly damaged me. lol

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-27 05:25pm

Stravo wrote:
think I have a relatively good idea. Record all religious arguments on this website that show the logical fallicies in the Bible and Christianity in general. Including this thread. When your daughter is mature enough to understand this website,
Sounds good until I realized Four words seared forever in my brain:

Trinity vs. Mary Poppins

That's not religious, unless you're a monkey.