NZ National Hoodie Day

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-07-22 02:10am

Superboy wrote:This may be a daft question, but do those negative connotations exist for anyone wearing a hoodie, or just people who wear it with the hood up? Im in my 20's and almost everyone my age that I meet wears hoodies on occasion, and I've never heard of someone thinking it looks thuggish. Maybe it's a very area-specific thing.

It is a daft question. You might want to read the whole thread.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2008-07-22 02:17am

Hoodies in the NZ context: In my experience in security in NZ, a hoodie is worn by a subsection of society that is involved in minor criminal behaviour through to intimidation, assault etc. These people tend to be minorities, or otherwise 'underprivileged' (to use a PC term) have a record of some sort, history of family violence and or substance abuse and occasionally come from a good background but have fallen in with the 'wrong crowd'. Their ages range from as young as six through to their fifties.
That is not to say that all people who wear hoodies are plotting their next 'job', but a large proportion who indulge in such behaviour do wear them and the unsavoury perception of hoodie wearers is well founded.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2008-07-22 04:33am

Amazingly enough there seems to be nothing but anecdote for evidence. "Everyone knows" sort of thinking...does anyone have anything other than repetition of a stereotype to actually support it, or is it well and truly self perpetuating now?

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2008-07-22 05:47am

Keevan_Colton wrote:Amazingly enough there seems to be nothing but anecdote for evidence. "Everyone knows" sort of thinking...does anyone have anything other than repetition of a stereotype to actually support it, or is it well and truly self perpetuating now?

What I posted was an observation based on my direct experience, unfortunately NZ statistics does not, as far as I know, keep records on numbers of criminals that wear hoodies, and while it may be possible to compile that kind of statistic, I am not in the mood to trudge through thousands of pictures of petty and more serious criminals to get that kind of information, even if I could find a plausible excuse to do it, which I doubt I could.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2008-07-22 06:13am

So, yes. All anecdotal.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people in hoodies?

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2008-07-22 06:15am

In my anecdotal experience i see more emo's in hoodies.

But that's just in my neck of the woods.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2008-07-22 06:27am

Keevan_Colton wrote: How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people in hoodies?

Personally, one. Hilariously stuffing beer cans down his trouser legs at the local corner shop.

It seems to be the fashion item of choice for the people the store security chase away because they're barred from the shop though.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 11:30am

Keevan_Colton wrote:So, yes. All anecdotal.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people in hoodies?

What are you, fucking retarded? For the second time, we're talking about the existence of the negative connotation. A connotation is a subjective phenomenon. Demanding objective evidence to support it is absurd. If enough people think it, then it's completely true to say that the connotation exists.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people wearing "gangsta" clothing? Does this mean there is no "gansta" connotation to the clothing?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 11:34am

bilateralrope wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Why would you need to protect your head from the rain? I grew up in one of the rainiest places in the country, acclimated to it, and now I don't even own an umbrella--no point in bothering with it. Your hair will dry in ten or fifteen minutes. Most people in the Pacific Northwest are like me, too.
Apart from when it gets on my glasses, being wet from the rain isn't an issue. But being cold from the rain is.

So how cold is the rain where you are ?

Wow. Is everyone in New Zealand as much of a pussy as you?

It's amazing that anyone can seriously argue that the "hoodie" is actually a practical necessity rather than a fashion choice. How the fuck do all these people without them get by, then? My favourite is the people saying "But how else will I keep rain off my head?" As if no one has ever heard of technological innovations like "hat" or "umbrella" (the latter of which works far better for keeping rain off you especially for the coiffed hair that was laughably mentioned earlier as a situation requiring a "hoodie"). Is it really that hard to admit that it's a fashion choice?

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2008-07-22 12:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:So, yes. All anecdotal.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people in hoodies?
What are you, fucking retarded? For the second time, we're talking about the existence of the negative connotation. A connotation is a subjective phenomenon. Demanding objective evidence to support it is absurd. If enough people think it, then it's completely true to say that the connotation exists.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people wearing "gangsta" clothing? Does this mean there is no "gansta" connotation to the clothing?

No one is arguing whether it does or doesn't exist except for you Mike.

Whether it's accurate is the actual discussion thats been taking place the last few pages.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2008-07-22 12:13pm

Zac Naloen wrote: No one is arguing whether it does or doesn't exist except for you Mike.

Whether it's accurate is the actual discussion thats been taking place the last few pages.

It's not like stereotypes spring into existence out of a vacuum. I'd wager either a few small cases that get lots of headlines or a lot of smaller incidents are responsible for it. It's really not much different than "Chavs wear Burberry", or "gangster wannabes wear FuBu".

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 12:15pm

Zac Naloen wrote:No one is arguing whether it does or doesn't exist except for you Mike.

Whether it's accurate is the actual discussion thats been taking place the last few pages.

What discussion? Some people are pointing out that hoodies are really convenient for thugs and chavs, while others are pretending that this indisputable fact has no bearing on the discussion and should not be assumed to be correlated in any way to actual usage. People like Keevan are now demanding police "hoodie statistics", which probably don't exist because they're not being tracked yet, and ignoring both the well-known group fashion and the logical convenience of the fashion for criminal purposes.

And none of it justifies the stupidity of "hoodie day", which was how this whole tangent got started. It's just that some people refuse to admit that "hoodie day" is an idiotic idea, so they flail about trying to justify it with increasingly irrelevant arguments.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2008-07-22 12:30pm

Mike, I cant believe you of all folk is using the "People know its true therefore it is." line of reasoning, will you be off playing with the 9/11 conspiracy theorists next?

What's wrong with a casual day meant to remind people that stereotypes are fucking stupid. Particularly since they generally have at best a tangential relationship to reality. After all everyone knows black people like watermelons and people with long hair are all hippies with no jobs and anyone owning a motorcycle is gang member out to rape and murder...hey...I know, all Canadians are polite but generally idiotic and do nothing but go eh and play hockey all the time! How's that one...after all, people can choose not to be associated with Canada...

The fact it comes down to is that such stereotyping is by its very nature retarded, if it was reality it would be a fact not a fucking stereotype.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 12:34pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:Mike, I cant believe you of all folk is using the "People know its true therefore it is." line of reasoning, will you be off playing with the 9/11 conspiracy theorists next?

Obviously, you do not know how to read. Show me where I said that popularity makes a stereotype factual, rather than proving that the stereotype exists. Is English not your first language, retard?

What's wrong with a casual day meant to remind people that stereotypes are fucking stupid. Particularly since they generally have at best a tangential relationship to reality. After all everyone knows black people like watermelons and people with long hair are all hippies with no jobs and anyone owning a motorcycle is gang member out to rape and murder...hey...I know, all Canadians are polite but generally idiotic and do nothing but go eh and play hockey all the time! How's that one...after all, people can choose not to be associated with Canada...

The fact it comes down to is that such stereotyping is by its very nature retarded, if it was reality it would be a fact not a fucking stereotype.

Doesn't matter, fucktard. As I've said repeatedly and which you are obviously too illiterate to understand, if a voluntary activity such as a fashion choice is well known to be associated with a negative stereotype, then choosing that fashion is a choice to be associated with that stereotype. This is especially true with fashions, which are all about telling the world something about yourself. NOTHING you have said in any way refutes or even addresses this fact, which is why you are doggedly clinging to your enormous misrepresentation of my argument.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2008-07-22 12:57pm

Going by personal anecdote, chavs nick stuff daily, hoodies or not. The various music and gym related hoodie wearers don't tend to steal stuff. The various "rockers" don't knowingly stereotype themselves as chavs, old people might because they don't know the difference, I guess.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2008-07-22 01:37pm

Doesn't matter, fucktard. As I've said repeatedly and which you are obviously too illiterate to understand, if a voluntary activity such as a fashion choice is well known to be associated with a negative stereotype, then choosing that fashion is a choice to be associated with that stereotype. This is especially true with fashions, which are all about telling the world something about yourself. NOTHING you have said in any way refutes or even addresses this fact, which is why you are doggedly clinging to your enormous misrepresentation of my argument.

Except what you seem to be failing to understand is that Hoody is associated with FAR MORE than just one social group which makes this negative connotation completely false, questioning it through an awareness day is only Bullshit if you hold the opinion that the connotation is true.

So which is it Mike?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 01:53pm

Zac Naloen wrote:Except what you seem to be failing to understand is that Hoody is associated with FAR MORE than just one social group which makes this negative connotation completely false, questioning it through an awareness day is only Bullshit if you hold the opinion that the connotation is true.

So which is it Mike?

I already covered this earlier, O Illiterate One. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about the local culture Down Under, but allow me to repeat what I said earlier: if the connotation is real, then this "hoodie day" is stupid because of the argument stated above. If it turns out that nobody even subscribes to this connotation, then the "hoodie day" is even more stupid because it is publicizing it even though it doesn't exist.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2008-07-22 01:55pm

Wong that doesn't make any sense.

It's a real connotation, that happens to be stupid itself and raising awareness about it's stupidity is stupid?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 01:59pm

Zac Naloen wrote:Wong that doesn't make any sense.

It's a real connotation, that happens to be stupid itself and raising awareness about it's stupidity is stupid?

Jesus, you're fucking stupid. Let's go over this again:

Code: Select all

IF CONNOTATION=1
     ARGUMENT 1
ELSE
     ARGUMENT 2

In this case, argument 1 is that young people are choosing to do something which they know carries certain connotations. Argument 2 is that they are publicizing a non-existent stereotype. You are mixing both arguments together and assuming that they are both triggered by condition 1.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2008-07-22 02:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote:Wong that doesn't make any sense.

It's a real connotation, that happens to be stupid itself and raising awareness about it's stupidity is stupid?
Jesus, you're fucking stupid. Let's go over this again:
Code: Select all
IF CONNOTATION=1
     ARGUMENT 1
ELSE
     ARGUMENT 2
In this case, argument 1 is that young people are choosing to do something which they know carries certain connotations. Argument 2 is that they are publicizing a non-existent stereotype. You are mixing both arguments together and assuming that they are both triggered by condition 1.

Except that it only works if they and you have the same connotations. Which you'll see here a lot of folk dont agree with...most of them younger than you...strange that isn't it? Perhaps you're just trying to become an old bigot before your time?

There are after all similar arguments to be made for any kind of clothing, even if it isn't connotations that you have, others do...see my suit example before. Just because to you it means a good paying job doesn't mean that's what it means to everyone. Hell, most of the people I've encountered wearing suits have been massive waists of genetic material that should have their oxygen privileges revoked. Does that mean that everyone in a suit is an insipid scumbag? They choose to wear one after all and the train of logic is the same. You'll find a lot of people with similar experiences, but cultural memes dictate suit good, hoodie bad.

What is different about stereotyping Canadians then in terms of logic, it's entirely possible to emigrate after all, so it is a group you can choose to disassociate yourself from via your own actions and choices.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2008-07-22 02:16pm

That logic argument is completely irrelevant.

Hoody day, as described in the article questions the connotations validity NOT it's existence.

It can't be bullshit based on your logic , it's a false premise.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 02:17pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:Except that it only works if they and you have the same connotations. Which you'll see here a lot of folk dont agree with...most of them younger than you...strange that isn't it? Perhaps you're just trying to become an old bigot before your time?

So says a person who lives thousands of miles away and dismisses statements made by a guy who actually worked security in New Zealand.

There are after all similar arguments to be made for any kind of clothing, even if it isn't connotations that you have, others do...see my suit example before. Just because to you it means a good paying job doesn't mean that's what it means to everyone.

It's what it means to most people. Even car salesmen and Jehovah's Witnesses wear suits. But yes, if one lived in your imaginary society where everyone who wears a suit is assumed to be part of the aristocracy, then yes, wearing a suit would carry that connotation and you would have to take that into account before putting one on. The argument is valid whether you like it or not, and your hypothetical scenario doesn't break it.

Hell, most of the people I've encountered wearing suits have been massive waists of genetic material that should have their oxygen privileges revoked. Does that mean that everyone in a suit is an insipid scumbag? They choose to wear one after all and the train of logic is the same. You'll find a lot of people with similar experiences, but cultural memes dictate suit good, hoodie bad.

So you agree that cultural memes indicate that a guy in a suit is a professional while a guy in a hoodie is a bum? Why don't you address my argument then? People know what they're saying to the world when they put on clothes.

What is different about stereotyping Canadians then in terms of logic, it's entirely possible to emigrate after all, so it is a group you can choose to disassociate yourself from via your own actions and choices.

Yes, I am associated with Canada. Leaving aside the preposterous difference in difficulty between relocating your entire family and putting on different clothes in the morning, how does this harm my argument? Are you seriously arguing that if a nation was known for doing horrible things, then people should not be concerned about emigrating there? Because that's where your argument is leading.

Superboy · Post by **Superboy** » 2008-07-22 03:58pm

Wong, the point of Hoodie Day is acknowledging that the negative connotation exists and trying to change it.

Your logic takes a huge leap when you assume that anyone who wants to wear a hoodie wants those connotations associated with them. It's true that if you wear a hoodie, you have to accept that those connotations will get applied to you, but you don't have to like it. You could want to wear a hoodie for any number of reason (comfort being the most common). Hoodie Day is a way of trying to fix the situation so that a person can wear a Hoodie without being thought of as a thug. Why is this bullshit?

Though, I admit, it's such a trivial matter that I can't believe anyone even put 2 seconds of thought into how to change it, let alone organizing a national Hoodie day.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-07-22 04:01pm

Superboy wrote:Wong, the point of Hoodie Day is acknowledging that the negative connotation exists and trying to change it.

Your logic takes a huge leap when you assume that anyone who wants to wear a hoodie wants those connotations associated with them.

Sort of like the way it's totally absurd to think that if a woman dresses like a hooker, she wants to draw a certain kind of attention? While such an argument might be put forward in the most abstract sense, it is not realistic.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2008-07-22 04:05pm

bilateralrope wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Why would you need to protect your head from the rain? I grew up in one of the rainiest places in the country, acclimated to it, and now I don't even own an umbrella--no point in bothering with it. Your hair will dry in ten or fifteen minutes. Most people in the Pacific Northwest are like me, too.
Apart from when it gets on my glasses, being wet from the rain isn't an issue. But being cold from the rain is.

So how cold is the rain where you are ?

I don't know, in the 40's F like everything else? Washington is rather famous for a dour, dreary climate like that.