NZ National Hoodie Day

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Why would you need to protect your head from the rain? I grew up in one of the rainiest places in the country, acclimated to it, and now I don't even own an umbrella--no point in bothering with it. Your hair will dry in ten or fifteen minutes. Most people in the Pacific Northwest are like me, too.

I boggles my mind that in a discussion about people dressing like thugs or whatever you'd throw in some vignette about how you're immune to the rain. Some people have styled hair or clothes or personal items or health that they'd like to protect with headgear or umbrellas. This is totally unrelated to the issue.

Frankly, while I'd never be caught dead wearing a hoodie, they are as Rye says 'medium' weather gear. If the weather packs in you can use the hood (not that I'm sure what the hoods are even like these days) to make it a bit better than just a dodgey sweater, but it's not too hot for regular weather. It's not like people know if it's going to rain; you've got to dress for many eventualities.

Of course, cruising around with your face concealed = suspicion, and nothing is really going to change that.

I just meant that I can't see the need for one in the first place except to conceal yourself while committing crimes.

[Superboy]

Sort of like the way it's totally absurd to think that if a woman dresses like a hooker, she wants to draw a certain kind of attention? While such an argument might be put forward in the most abstract sense, it is not realistic.

Except that there simply aren't many women who dress like hookers that don't fit the negative stereotype associated with it.

As has been argued in this thread, there are many people who wear hoodies and simply aren't thugs and don't want to be associated with them. This isn't an abstract thing, there are clearly a lot of people who wear hoodies and aren't thugs. Many of them have posted in this thread.

I think this is what people have been trying to argue when the discussion switched to whether or not the negative conotations are accurate. If a negative connotation exists but is innaccurate in many cases, an effort should be made to change that connotation.

Earlier in the thread, you mentioned an imaginary world where everyone wearing a suit is assumed to be part of the aristocracy. Would you have a problem if legitmate businessmen tried to change this assumption so that they didn't have to chose between either dressing unprofessionally or having people assume they're a pompous jackass?

[Ohma]

I don't know Duchess, I've lived in western Oregon my entire life and I own a few umbrellas (a small one in case of sudden rain, a large one in case I'm going to be outside on a particularly rainy day) and I think I still have a hoodie somewhere around here (though it has been supplanted by a scarf and jacket because I think they look better).

[Darth Wong]

Sort of like the way it's totally absurd to think that if a woman dresses like a hooker, she wants to draw a certain kind of attention? While such an argument might be put forward in the most abstract sense, it is not realistic.

Except that there simply aren't many women who dress like hookers that don't fit the negative stereotype associated with it.

Prove it.

As has been argued in this thread, there are many people who wear hoodies and simply aren't thugs and don't want to be associated with them. This isn't an abstract thing, there are clearly a lot of people who wear hoodies and aren't thugs. Many of them have posted in this thread.

Nobody is saying that 100% of people who wear hoodies are thugs. However, it is a fashion choice with rather well-known connotations, and people are aware of that.

Is that too nuanced a position for you? Do you prefer to strawman it into "100% of people who wear hoodies are thugs?"

I think this is what people have been trying to argue when the discussion switched to whether or not the negative conotations are accurate. If a negative connotation exists but is innaccurate in many cases, an effort should be made to change that connotation.

Even when the person isn't actually a thug, he is choosing to dress in a manner that he knows full well may evoke that association. Just like a woman wearing a leather miniskirt, stiletto heels, and fishnet stockings isn't necessarily a hooker, but she knew perfectly well what she was doing when she put on those clothes.

Earlier in the thread, you mentioned an imaginary world where everyone wearing a suit is assumed to be part of the aristocracy. Would you have a problem if legitmate businessmen tried to change this assumption so that they didn't have to chose between either dressing unprofessionally or having people assume they're a pompous jackass?

No, but they won't. They won't and I'll tell you why: because part of the function of clothes is to help people with group-identification. That's why businessmen wear suits. That's why hookers wear leather miniskirts with fishnet stockings and stiletto heels. That's why thugs and chavs wear hoodies. That's why "gangstas" and gangsta-wannabes wear do-rags and pants with the crotch hanging down to the knees. Everyone knows that when they put on clothes, they're telling the world "this is the kind of person I am". They only object and play dumb when they get blowback for it, or when someone commits the sin of being frank and honest with them about the reaction.

[Singular Intellect]

You know Mike, I got really thrown off there, since in your last reply there the first quoted section quotes the name "David Wong", and IIRC one of your kids is called that.

For a second I felt just a little bit older than I should have.

[Darth Wong]

You know Mike, I got really thrown off there, since in your last reply there the first quoted section quotes the name "David Wong", and IIRC one of your kids is called that.

For a second I felt just a little bit older than I should have.

Yeah, Superboy quoted me as "David Wong" and I didn't bother changing it when I quoted him in my reply. He must have typed that in manually, for reasons which elude me.

[Superboy]

Yeah, Superboy quoted me as "David Wong" and I didn't bother changing it when I quoted him in my reply. He must have typed that in manually, for reasons which elude me.

Sorry about that. I frequent another board where the admin in named David Wong, so it's a force of habit.

Nobody is saying that 100% of people who wear hoodies are thugs. However, it is a fashion choice with rather well-known connotations, and people are aware of that.

Yes, people are aware of that and want to change it. Why is this bullshit? These people want to be able to wear a hoodie without those negative conotations attached.

You just keep repeating that those connotations exist and that people are aware of it, without addressing why it's bullshit to try and change that situation.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, people are aware of that and want to change it. Why is this bullshit?

It's bullshit because it cannot be changed, because people want to dress in such a manner that you can tell which social group they belong to. What part of this do you not understand?

[Ender]

Timeout from the debate here - did they ever manage to make a family meal for less then $10, and if so how. Serious question. Inflation and limited resources at college make this a concern to me.

[Superboy]

It's bullshit because it cannot be changed, because people want to dress in such a manner that you can tell which social group they belong to.

But that's not the only reason a person dresses a certain way. Sure, a person wears a business suit to appear professional, and a woman dressing like a hooker probably wants to look like a hooker, but as has been continually restated in this thread, there are reasons to wear a hoodie other than trying to look like a thug.

The only reason it couldn't be changed is if all the people wearing hoodies did so because they wanted people to be able to tell which social group they belong to. This is the point that you seem to be ignoring. A lot of people (I would even say most people) who wear hoodies don't want to be associated with thugs.

Why does the fact that some hoodie-wearers are trying to look thuggish mean that those negative connotations can never change?

[ArmorPierce]

Ooooh, what a clever rebuttal! Assume that a suit carries just as many negative connotations as a hoodie, even though it doesn't! But hey, if you want to go on pretending that people don't choose clothes with any intention of declaring which social group they belong to, be my guest. And if laughably false correlations like the above make you feel better about that delusion, you're welcome to them.

I'm finding it pretty hard to believe that you are genuinely against people wearing hoodies.

[Schuyler Colfax]

I never really associated hoodies with "gangstas". I have two hoodies and two jackets and I wear them when it's when it's cold out. I usually wear a jacket over a hoodie when it is really cold. I mean sure when you actually put the hood on it makes look suspicious, but they are useful during bad weather. But being a guy in high school I can honestly say hoodies have nothing to do with social groups. I've seen just about everyone that I know where a hoodie no matter who they hung out with.

[ArmorPierce]

Okay let me guess. You people that are against hoodies are also against du-rags and skull-caps and what not? People also need to stop braiding their hair and cutting their hair short because there are negative connotations to that (a principal in one school in the south actually suspended a student for that one).

Just because a negative connotation exists in your mind doesn't mean that people should not wear it. If that's all your argument is then people should stop playing violent video games because there is a negative connotation or people should all go to church because there is a negative connotation if you don't. I shouldn't listen to rock music because it is corrupting the youth.

Most young people (teens and people in their 20s) wears hoodies. There are plenty of practical reasons to wear a hoodie. Hoodies provide a protection against mild to moderate weather as well as help in protection against the cold and wind. Wearing a hat will often mess up the hair of people who use product or people that don't have straight hair and it is quite frankly ethnocentric to be against the hoodie for that reason alone. Not completely straight hair becoming a frizzled mess is a problem faced more by minorities such as blacks and hispanics. I see that you are not arguing that, what you are arguing is that there is a negative stereotype so everyone must bow down to the negative stereotype.

[ArmorPierce]

Most young people (teens and people in their 20s) wears hoodies. There are plenty of practical reasons to wear a hoodie. Hoodies provide a protection against mild to moderate weather as well as help in protection against the cold and wind. Wearing a hat will often mess up the hair of people who use product or people that don't have straight hair and it is quite frankly ethnocentric to be against the hoodie for that reason alone. Not completely straight hair becoming a frizzled mess is a problem faced more by minorities such as blacks and hispanics. I see that you are not arguing that, what you are arguing is that there is a negative stereotype so everyone must bow down to the negative stereotype.

become a frizzled mess in a rain or when it gets wet is what I meant to say. Umbrellas work but is not always available. I had two umbrellas whilst in college and they both broke in the span of 1 week. Also umbrellas are easily and often forgotten and lost whilst moving from area to area and I personally find it an annoyance to have to bring it along.

[Spyder]

Why would you need to protect your head from the rain? I grew up in one of the rainiest places in the country, acclimated to it, and now I don't even own an umbrella--no point in bothering with it. Your hair will dry in ten or fifteen minutes. Most people in the Pacific Northwest are like me, too.

Apart from when it gets on my glasses, being wet from the rain isn't an issue. But being cold from the rain is.

So how cold is the rain where you are ?

I don't know, in the 40's F like everything else? Washington is rather famous for a dour, dreary climate like that.

Capitals seem to be like that...

[Losonti Tokash]

Capitals seem to be like that...

She's talking about Washington state, not DC.

[Darth Wong]

Ooooh, what a clever rebuttal! Assume that a suit carries just as many negative connotations as a hoodie, even though it doesn't! But hey, if you want to go on pretending that people don't choose clothes with any intention of declaring which social group they belong to, be my guest. And if laughably false correlations like the above make you feel better about that delusion, you're welcome to them.

I'm finding it pretty hard to believe that you are genuinely against people wearing hoodies.

I'm against liars, which is what you have when you get a young, culturally aware person wearing a hoodie in a culture where they are perceived that way, and then pretending he did not know that or take it into account. Or worse yet, pretending that while he knew of it, he needed to wear it, for some made-up pseudo-practical reasons.

Do you honestly think you can bullshit me, whelp? Do you think I was born 30 years old? People pulled the same shit when I was a kid; wearing clothes that were intended to send a message, and then pretending that there were totally practical reasons. So by all means, continue to lie to your parents, but don't bullshit me. You know exactly what it means when you put on a do-rag.

Seriously, just how fucking gullible do you think I am? You figure you can say that a guy puts on a do-rag and has no intention whatsoever of associating himself with the do-rag stereotype? Or that he has some practical necessity for the fucking thing which forces him to associate with this stereotype against his will? Bull-fucking-shit. He bought the fucking thing with every intention of associating with a certain social stereotype, and he put it on with the same thing in mind. The only alternative is that he's a goddamned retard or lives in a cave, because that's the only way you could be unaware of such things.

[Flash]

The negative connotation most certainly exists, at least in my area. If I have two people walk into my shop, one wearing a hoodie and the other wearing a business suit, guess which one I watch more closely? I'll give you a hint - it's not the guy in the suit.

Darth Wong is right - these clothes are worn because they're trying to identify with a particular group. Now, that's not to say that everyone who wears a hoodie is a thug. But for a majority, I don't think it's any different from the people who roll up one leg of their pants (never understood that one myself). It's a fashion statement designed to say that you associate with that group.

[Superboy]

I think the negative stereotypes associated with hoodies are a lot stronger to some people than others.

I never would have thought anybody could consider a hoodie on the same level as a do-rag or rolled up pants-leg in terms of the connotations associated with the style. Hell, every single youngish person I know has at least one hoodie in their wardrobe that they wear on occasion.

I can understand Wong's point more if he really does associate wearing a hoodie with thugishness in the same way that I would associate a do-rag with gangsta wannabes. If they threw a do-rag day, I'd think that was fucking ridiculous. But that's only because I've never met anybody who wore a do-rag that didn't fit that gangsta wannabe stereotype.

With hoodies, there are so many people that wear them without any intended of implication of thugishness, it's hard for to me believe that Wong really thinks the only reason a person would wear one is to look like a thug. Maybe it's an area-specific thing.

[Havok]

It's not having a hooded sweatshirt. It is having a hooded sweatshirt where the hood is always worn. That is the look that gets the negative stereotype.

This reminds me of something from when I was a kid and used to be a skinhead. I used to HATE Sh.A.R.P.s. (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) Not because I was racist, or because they weren't, but because they would get SOOO pissed off when regular people would think that they were the regular garden variety racist skinheads because they dressed EXACTLY like we did and they didn't realize that their boot laces and braces were a different color and that indicated they were Sh.A.R.P.s

I lost count of how many fights I got into with these retards just over that issue and making fun of them for it. NEWSFLASH!! If you don't want to be associated with a specific group, don't wear their "uniform". When I laced up my boots every day I knew what I looked like and what I represented.

Mike is 100% fucking right. And everyone of you that says "Oh but lots of people wear hoodies" are being fucking liars, because you damn well know that you can tell the difference between some Jock that is wearing his hoodie after practice or some college girl that is trying to hid her giant tits she feels self conscious about and some little street punk that has a can of spray paint ready to go or is trying to look "hard".

[Zac Naloen]

Mike is 100% fucking right. And everyone of you that says "Oh but lots of people wear hoodies" are being fucking liars, because you damn well know that you can tell the difference between some Jock that is wearing his hoodie after practice or some college girl that is trying to hid her giant tits she feels self conscious about and some little street punk that has a can of spray paint ready to go or is trying to look "hard".

That is NOT what this argument is about for me.

From the beginning Mike has claimed that his Hoody day is bullshit because you can't change a negative stereotype. THAT is bullshit.

Negative stereotypes get changed all the fucking time, all it requires is for a group to stand up and say enough is enough.

[Stuart Mackey]

So, yes. All anecdotal.

Well ya know, breaking the NZ Privacy act just aint my thing, so, as I said, you will just have to take my word.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people in hoodies?

It used to be one a day when I was more involved in that line of work.

[Stuart Mackey]

So, yes. All anecdotal.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people in hoodies?

What are you, fucking retarded? For the second time, we're talking about the existence of the negative connotation. A connotation is a subjective phenomenon. Demanding objective evidence to support it is absurd. If enough people think it, then it's completely true to say that the connotation exists.

How many robberies have you personally witnessed by people wearing "gangsta" clothing? Does this mean there is no "gansta" connotation to the clothing?

The thing he does not seem to grasp, these types are a subsection of society but because of their actions any one in a hoodie tends to get looked at twice, especially if they are a minority. Now its not right, but who ever said that life was fair?

[Stuart Mackey]

Why would you need to protect your head from the rain? I grew up in one of the rainiest places in the country, acclimated to it, and now I don't even own an umbrella--no point in bothering with it. Your hair will dry in ten or fifteen minutes. Most people in the Pacific Northwest are like me, too.

Apart from when it gets on my glasses, being wet from the rain isn't an issue. But being cold from the rain is.

So how cold is the rain where you are ?

Wow. Is everyone in New Zealand as much of a pussy as you?

Only if they are from Auckland
So Bilateralrope, you a soft Aucklander, suffering your first real winter in Dunners?

[Stuart Mackey]

Mike is 100% fucking right. And everyone of you that says "Oh but lots of people wear hoodies" are being fucking liars, because you damn well know that you can tell the difference between some Jock that is wearing his hoodie after practice or some college girl that is trying to hid her giant tits she feels self conscious about and some little street punk that has a can of spray paint ready to go or is trying to look "hard".

That is NOT what this argument is about for me.

From the beginning Mike has claimed that his Hoody day is bullshit because you can't change a negative stereotype. THAT is bullshit.

Negative stereotypes get changed all the fucking time, all it requires is for a group to stand up and say enough is enough.

I see that you are unaware of how things are in NZ. The people who commit crime, indulge in mall intimidation etc tend to wear hoodies. Hoodies will stop being associated with this behaviour when they stop wearing them, do you understand?
The Hoodie day rubbish was a politically motivated stunt, and should be seen in that light.