Ordinance "Brings Violence to Once Great City"

[Kanastrous]

SAN FRANCISCO - The scene repeats itself daily on city streets: a driver gets stuck bumper to bumper, blocking an intersection and preventing another car from turning left.

But authorities say that was enough to cause Edwin Ramos to unload an AK-47 assault weapon on a man and his two sons, killing them.

The deaths immediately drew public outrage, which intensified when authorities revealed that Ramos, 21, is an illegal immigrant who managed to avoid deportation despite previous brushes with the law.

The case has put San Francisco's liberal politics to the test, setting off a debate over its sanctuary law that shields undocumented immigrants from deportation.

On Wednesday, Ramos pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder in the deaths of Anthony Bologna, 49, and his sons, Michael, 20, and Matthew, 16. Bologna and his older son died in the intersection on June 22. His younger son succumbed to his injuries days later.

Shortly after that, police arrested Ramos, a native of El Salvador and reputed member of the Mara Salvatrucha gang, known as MS-13. Investigators believe he was the gunman, though two other men were seen in the car with him.

The heinousness of the deaths has put pressure on San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris to seek the death penalty against Ramos. Harris, who campaigned on an anti-death penalty platform and has never pursued capital punishment during her more than four years in office, has declined to say exactly how she intends to proceed.

"This case has been charged as a special circumstance case," making it eligible for the death penalty, spokeswoman Erica Derryck said. "No additional announcement has been made about this aspect of the charging."

Ramos' attorney, Robert Amparan, said his client was not the shooter. "They have the wrong person," he said.

Amparan declined to discuss details of the case, but he denied his client was involved in gang activity and said Ramos entered the country legally. Federal authorities contend Ramos is undocumented.

The victims' family learned that Ramos had been arrested at least three times before the shooting and evaded deportation, largely because of San Francisco's sanctuary status.

The policy, adopted in 1989 by the city's elected Board of Supervisors, bars local officials from cooperating with federal authorities in their efforts to deport illegal immigrants.

Officials in the juvenile offenders agency interpreted the law to also shield underage felons from deportation by refusing to report undocumented ones. Mayor Gavin Newsom said he rescinded the policy regarding juvenile offenders after learning about it in May.

The Bolognas' relatives say Ramos apparently benefited from the policy when he reportedly was convicted twice of felonies in 2003 and 2004 but never was turned over for deportation.

"All San Francisco's sanctuary ordinance has done is bring violence and death to this once-great city," said Frank Kennedy, who is married to Anthony Bologna's sister.

Kennedy called for an investigation of the sanctuary policy and demanded "prosecutions for violating the law."

Meanwhile, local and federal authorities are pointing fingers at each other over Ramos' most recent arrest before the shooting.

Ramos was arrested in late March with another man after police discovered a gun used in a double homicide in the car Ramos was driving.

The district attorney's office decided not to file charges against Ramos, and he was released April 2 even though he was in the process of being deported after his application for legal residence was denied, according to the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

San Francisco Sheriff's Department spokesman Eileen Hirst said jail officials faxed ICE on March 30 asking if Ramos should remain jailed. Ramos was freed after Hirst said immigration officials didn't respond.

ICE spokesman Timothy Counts said his agency did not receive word of Ramos' arrest in March. He said the only communication received about Ramos was an "electronic message" from the sheriff's department three hours after his release.

The case has garnered national attention, leading U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., and an anti-immigration group called Californians for Population Stabilization to ask the U.S. Department of Justice to take over, alleging San Francisco authorities have mishandled it.

"Because San Francisco's political leaders have already demonstrated their willingness to act in flagrant violation of federal law, I do not believe that local judicial institutions can be trusted to fairly try the case or mete out an appropriate punishment," Tancredo said in a letter sent Tuesday to U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey.

Justice Department spokesman Charles Miller said he was unaware of the case and the congressman's request. Miller said the attorney general routinely responds privately to such requests.

Diana Hull, president of Californians for Population Stabilization, called on about a dozen cities nationwide with similar sanctuary policies to end those programs.

"We need to remember always that a death-dealing policy like `sanctuary' hides behind the false mantle of compassion," Hull said.

Nathan Ballard, a spokesman for San Francisco's mayor, said city officials were wrong to shield undocumented, juvenile felons from federal immigration authorities.

"The sanctuary program was never intended to shield felons," Ballard said. "The policy was inappropriate."

However, Newsom "still supports the worthwhile aims of denying the federal government" assistance in deporting otherwise law-abiding undocumented residents, he said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25827381/

[CaptainChewbacca]

The heinousness of the deaths has put pressure on San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris to seek the death penalty against Ramos. Harris, who campaigned on an anti-death penalty platform and has never pursued capital punishment during her more than four years in office, has declined to say exactly how she intends to proceed.

That's retarded. California doesn't HAVE a death penalty.

[Darth Wong]

Ummmm, if this guy killed three people, shouldn't he be imprisoned rather than deported? If they deport him, he'll be walking around free in Mexico, with the option to just sneak back into the country.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The heinousness of the deaths has put pressure on San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris to seek the death penalty against Ramos. Harris, who campaigned on an anti-death penalty platform and has never pursued capital punishment during her more than four years in office, has declined to say exactly how she intends to proceed.

That's retarded. California doesn't HAVE a death penalty.

please tell that too Tookie, Richard Rameriz, Charles Ign and a few others. Although Tookie won't be talking he's dead, killed by the state of California.

[Darth Wong]

Tookie won't be talking he's dead, killed by the state of California.

TERMINATED.

[Kanastrous]

Executed.

[Stuart]

Liquidated

[CaptainChewbacca]

The heinousness of the deaths has put pressure on San Francisco District Attorney Kamala Harris to seek the death penalty against Ramos. Harris, who campaigned on an anti-death penalty platform and has never pursued capital punishment during her more than four years in office, has declined to say exactly how she intends to proceed.

That's retarded. California doesn't HAVE a death penalty.

please tell that too Tookie, Richard Rameriz, Charles Ign and a few others. Although Tookie won't be talking he's dead, killed by the state of California.

Oops. Why did I think California didn't have the death penalty? Is it a federal crime/state thing?

[Stuart]

Ummmm, if this guy killed three people, shouldn't he be imprisoned rather than deported? If they deport him, he'll be walking around free in Mexico, with the option to just sneak back into the country.

What we do is, we execute him then deport his body. Or, if he is imprisoned, come to a compromise agreement with the city of San Francisco and deport half of him.

[General Zod]

Oops. Why did I think California didn't have the death penalty? Is it a federal crime/state thing?

The death-penalty is regulated at the state level, not Federal afaik.

[The Yosemite Bear]

On the otherhand it could be because we have to have Farcical "Parole Hearings" for certain members of the "Class of 72", those whose death penalty cases were set aside by the supreme court. I CA that's the Manson family and Sirhan Sirhan. In New York they have the guy who killed Kitty Genovese, escaped from prison raped and killed another woman and then was one of the Attica Rioters.

Yes they still have parole hearings every five years as mandated by the courts, lets just say that Rudolph Hesse had a better chance of living outside then they do.

[Kanastrous]

There's also a federal death penalty.

[The Yosemite Bear]

There's also a federal death penalty.

yes, just talk with Timmy McVeigh's lawyers or Mr. Ted Kazinski

actually the Federal one you have to:

Kill A federal Peace officer, Hijack an Interstate Truck, Aircraft or Train, Kidnap and transport a minor across state lines for slavery purposes, kill someone in the process of robbing a federal bank, kill someone in the process of aiding and abetting the escape of an incarcerated prisoner. (US Marshals don't like it when you go action movie on our prisons)

[Kanastrous]

Kazinski evaded execution (well, trial) but, yeah.

[Darth Wong]

Slightly off-topic but I'm surprised that gridlocking and other forms of incredibly selfish driving don't result in more violence. Few things are more infuriating than waiting at a stoplight and seeing some jackass going the other way, barging into the intersection even though traffic is already backed up into the intersection and it's obvious he'll be stuck there, and then watching the light turn green but being unable to go because this asshole is in your way. You and dozens of cars behind you get held up because this fuckwit wanted to be just a little bit farther ahead in traffic.

[Master of Ossus]

Ummmm, if this guy killed three people, shouldn't he be imprisoned rather than deported? If they deport him, he'll be walking around free in Mexico, with the option to just sneak back into the country.

The point is that he had been arrested, before, and should have been deported before the shooting happened. However, because San Francisco is a "sanctuary city," he was shielded from federal agents and allowed to commit this crime.

San Francisco's policy has been stupid for ages. At one point, several convicted crack dealers were flown to Southern California and put up in a $1000/day safehouse (at city expense) to protect them from federal officials who were trying to deport them. They later escaped and were never heard from, again.

[Kanastrous]

...and our DAs here in SoCal are mighty pissy about it, too. There's talk of a lawsuit against SF, in response.

[Durandal]

Slightly off-topic but I'm surprised that gridlocking and other forms of incredibly selfish driving don't result in more violence. Few things are more infuriating than waiting at a stoplight and seeing some jackass going the other way, barging into the intersection even though traffic is already backed up into the intersection and it's obvious he'll be stuck there, and then watching the light turn green but being unable to go because this asshole is in your way. You and dozens of cars behind you get held up because this fuckwit wanted to be just a little bit farther ahead in traffic.

I think it's mostly out of a sense of self preservation. However pissed off you might get at other drivers, it's not worth actually doing something about it. For all you know, the other guy could have a gun or a knife, or he could be just plain fucking nuts. It's best to just let those things go and count yourself lucky that there was no damage to your vehicle.

[Maxentius]

If this guy is indeed a member of MS-13, I sincerely hope that he does get the death penalty, or at least life in prison.

[Buddha]

I wouldn't normally want to have anyone executed, but this is not a perfect world and this is more proof. If anything though, this guy should be thrown in jail for life and without parole. He seems like the icy cold killa type that gangsters try to be. I can't blame anyone for wanting him to die, especially not the family of the victims.

[Darmalus]

Slightly off-topic but I'm surprised that gridlocking and other forms of incredibly selfish driving don't result in more violence. Few things are more infuriating than waiting at a stoplight and seeing some jackass going the other way, barging into the intersection even though traffic is already backed up into the intersection and it's obvious he'll be stuck there, and then watching the light turn green but being unable to go because this asshole is in your way. You and dozens of cars behind you get held up because this fuckwit wanted to be just a little bit farther ahead in traffic.

If I remember correctly, there was a series of studies done of the effects of crowding on behavior. When they crammed rats into a box, they would get violent and attack each other, and this was used as some sort of stupid attack on city living. When they did a similar test on primates, instead of violence, social behavior went into high gear and they were all extra polite to each other the more crowded it got, up to a point. Maybe this is the same sort of situation, where the crowding is stressful, but is being counterbalanced by other instinctive responses?

[Kanastrous]

Slightly off-topic but I'm surprised that gridlocking and other forms of incredibly selfish driving don't result in more violence. Few things are more infuriating than waiting at a stoplight and seeing some jackass going the other way, barging into the intersection even though traffic is already backed up into the intersection and it's obvious he'll be stuck there, and then watching the light turn green but being unable to go because this asshole is in your way. You and dozens of cars behind you get held up because this fuckwit wanted to be just a little bit farther ahead in traffic.

If I remember correctly, there was a series of studies done of the effects of crowding on behavior. When they crammed rats into a box, they would get violent and attack each other, and this was used as some sort of stupid attack on city living. When they did a similar test on primates, instead of violence, social behavior went into high gear and they were all extra polite to each other the more crowded it got, up to a point. Maybe this is the same sort of situation, where the crowding is stressful, but is being counterbalanced by other instinctive responses?

So...city life separates the rats from the monkeys?

[Commander 598]

I think I read somewhere that MS-13 initiation was to bump cars and shoot whoever gets out...not sure where I heard it though. Possibly related?

[FSTargetDrone]

I think I read somewhere that MS-13 initiation was to bump cars and shoot whoever gets out...not sure where I heard it though. Possibly related?

Hm, that reminds me of the "gangs will shoot at people who flash car headlights" hoax, but what the heck. These people like MS-13 have such a callous disregard for people that I wouldn't laugh off your suggestion so quickly.

[Kanastrous]

Hey FS, what's that pic in your avatar?

Did you visit The Quiet Earth?