If Hitler died in summer of '39, how would he be remembered?

[Lonestar]

Kinda curiously. Let's say that Ole Adolf kicked the bucket in June '39. How do you think History would remember him?

Question brought on by someone on another board claiming that if Adolfed kicked it in '39 he would be remembered as one of Germany's greatest leaders.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Kinda curiously. Let's say that Ole Adolf kicked the bucket in June '39. How do you think History would remember him?

Question brought on by someone on another board claiming that if Adolfed kicked it in '39 he would be remembered as one of Germany's greatest leaders.

I'm not sure when exactly he started really sticking it to the jews, so you might be right. I think he would be remembered as a demagogue and someone who probably would have led Germany to war. Whether or not they ever found his books would count for a lot.

[Sturmfalke]

I'm not sure when exactly he started really sticking it to the jews, so you might be right. I think he would be remembered as a demagogue and someone who probably would have led Germany to war. Whether or not they ever found his books would count for a lot.

Which books do you mean? If you are talking about "Mein Kampf", this book was originally published in 1925, and after the NSDAP rose to power it was circulated widely (even given to newlyweds instead of a bible, if I remember correctly).

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm not sure when exactly he started really sticking it to the jews, so you might be right. I think he would be remembered as a demagogue and someone who probably would have led Germany to war. Whether or not they ever found his books would count for a lot.

Which books do you mean? If you are talking about "Mein Kampf", this book was originally published in 1925, and after the NSDAP rose to power it was circulated widely (even given to newlyweds instead of a bible, if I remember correctly).

He wrote a second book about how he would fight and win a war with america, using the totality of resources gotten from conquering europe. Can't remember the name.

[Guardsman Bass]

This is interesting, since it happens just before Germany invaded Poland, bringing the UK into the war. I'm guessing the chaos at the top of the command will delay that, possibly indefinitely (unless Goering takes the lead really quickly).

[Setzer]

IIRC, he was Time magazine's man of the year in 38. He'd probably be remembered as a brutal but capable man who restored Germany to greatness.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

IIRC, he was Time magazine's man of the year in 38. He'd probably be remembered as a brutal but capable man who restored Germany to greatness.

He will be venerated as the God of all things Pure Aryan, to be certain.

And the racism he spawned would have spread further than before. I would dare say that it would have far greater social implications than thought possible.

[Simplicius]

He wrote a second book about how he would fight and win a war with america, using the totality of resources gotten from conquering europe. Can't remember the name.

It wasn't published during his lifetime and was never titled. The English edition (2003) is entitled Hitler's Second Book.

[Mange]

It's mentioned in a recent biography on Adolf Hitler by a Swedish author, Bengt Liljegren, that in the author's view had Hitler died in 1939, he would've been remembered as one of the greatest German statesmen despite the anti-semitism.

[Pelranius]

The Nazis would probably start fighting among each other after he dies. I can imagine Bormann, Goering and Himmler all going for each other's throat. I don't think either Hess or Goebbels really has enough power to make a bid, even if Hess was Deputy Fuhrer.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

June '39, after the nazification of german society to a very high degree- so many party organisations- after the absorption of Czechoslovakia, and the end of appeasement; whoever succeeds him is not going to have it easy.

The nonaggression pact with the soviet union has not yet been signed, but the army has been brought to heel with the sacking of Blomberg and Fritsch; there are two potential time bombs right there.

Hitler intimidated the army into subservience, but can his eventual sucessor do the same? I doubt Goering could, not in the long term. It might take years and be highly subject to events, but I think the german army might start recovering it's backbone.
Goebbels could play kingmaker if he had the presence of mind, but I think he might take to long to get over Hitler's death and miss his chance.

Chaos within the party, the army flexing it's political muscles- any chance of Stalin indulging himself in pre-emptive war?

[Thanas]

Chaos within the party, the army flexing it's political muscles- any chance of Stalin indulging himself in pre-emptive war?

No. And certainly not against Germany, considering the dismal state of the soviet army.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Well, at least it was a concise reply- but would you care to show some kind of reasoning?


Granted, Kalkhin-Gol was forced on the Red Army, but they did fairly well.
The winter war with the Finns at this time, a bloody disaster- but it was a failed offensive. They were prepared to go on the attack.

What else did the Red Army do in late 1939, early 1940? Oh, yes. They invaded Poland.

The military argument doesn't work. The Red Army was far below the state of skill and readiness it could and should have been capable of, but it was not a cipher.


The political situation is the key, and what advantages are there to be gained by waiting and seeing, and what by snapping up Poland as a buffer state and, if the situation develops that way, a jumping off point?

Wait and see has a lot of advantages. The soviet union would not be the aggressor, they have more time for industrial growth, it's possible the german state might end up in the hands of someone less capable and more easily intimidated.

On the other hand, the more sure war between the two is eventually- in other words, if someone capable steps into Hitler's shoes- the more important it becomes to have that additional space.

And if the worst happens and there is no competent successor, the centrifugal forces in the german state gain the upper hand- if competing branches of the party and state apparatuses (apparatii?) start to cripple Germany then, well, when would the Soviet Union ever have such a chance to eliminate a major threat so easily and so far from it's home soil?

(Poor bloody Poland in the middle, though.)
The big imponderable here really is Stalin. How blind- or how foresightful- is he going to be?
Evcen if there's no outright war, a little saber- rattling could go a long way to influence the political situation within Germany.

[Eleas]

His successor, whoever it would have been, would like as not have been hated, unless said successor immediately discontinued the plans already in motion. That person would have inherited all the badwill that Hitler received in this universe, and the average armchair historians would bemoan the "perversion" of Hitler's original plan (whatever they thought that would have been).

[Sidewinder]

Chaos within the party, the army flexing it's political muscles- any chance of Stalin indulging himself in pre-emptive war?

No. And certainly not against Germany, considering the dismal state of the soviet army.

Poland is right between Germany and the USSR. If Stalin orders a preemptive attack on Germany, he'll have to march through Poland, and that'll suck the UK and France (and eventually, the US) into the war as German ALLIES. I doubt Stalin would take that risk.

[Illuminatus Primus]

IIRC, he was Time magazine's man of the year in 38. He'd probably be remembered as a brutal but capable man who restored Germany to greatness.

Time Magazine's person of the year is the most influential, for bad or for good. It doesn't mean he was considered a great leader. By now 1939 he was considered a bellicose tyrant and while there was still great consensus for a maintained peace policy on both sides of the pond, that just means they didn't want to repeat the horrors of the Great War. That doesn't mean most people thought Hitler was awesome, more just a minority of Germanophiles, authoritarians, and antisemites.

[Darth Hoth]

IIRC, he was Time magazine's man of the year in 38. He'd probably be remembered as a brutal but capable man who restored Germany to greatness.

Time Magazine's person of the year is the most influential, for bad or for good. It doesn't mean he was considered a great leader. By now 1939 he was considered a bellicose tyrant and while there was still great consensus for a maintained peace policy on both sides of the pond, that just means they didn't want to repeat the horrors of the Great War. That doesn't mean most people thought Hitler was awesome, more just a minority of Germanophiles, authoritarians, and antisemites.

Germans certainly loved him, it was those he "defeated" who did not. With the perspectives of history changing over the decades and things becoming less personal, other people might well come to admire him as well, especially as none of the really bad stuff had happened by then (anti-Semitic pogroms with hundreds of murders, yes, which is bad enough, but not the Holocaust). I suppose people might view him like a modern Bismarck, a political genius who brought Germany out of her troubles and united the Germans in one nation.

There is, of course, the matter that without war, the very forced re-armament would cause major economic problems in the near future. But then, that would be blamed on his successor (Göring, most likely, at that point).