NZ National Hoodie Day

[Stuart Mackey]

Wong, the point of Hoodie Day is acknowledging that the negative connotation exists and trying to change it.

Did it occur to you that that connotation exists, and will continue to exist so long as the reason for that connotation exists? These things do not just happen for no reason at all.

[Zac Naloen]

Mike is 100% fucking right. And everyone of you that says "Oh but lots of people wear hoodies" are being fucking liars, because you damn well know that you can tell the difference between some Jock that is wearing his hoodie after practice or some college girl that is trying to hid her giant tits she feels self conscious about and some little street punk that has a can of spray paint ready to go or is trying to look "hard".

That is NOT what this argument is about for me.

From the beginning Mike has claimed that his Hoody day is bullshit because you can't change a negative stereotype. THAT is bullshit.

Negative stereotypes get changed all the fucking time, all it requires is for a group to stand up and say enough is enough.

I see that you are unaware of how things are in NZ. The people who commit crime, indulge in mall intimidation etc tend to wear hoodies. Hoodies will stop being associated with this behaviour when they stop wearing them, do you understand?
The Hoodie day rubbish was a politically motivated stunt, and should be seen in that light.

No, it's exactly the same situation in the UK as well.

To the point where one shopping center has banned ALL hoodies from it.

The point ISN'T that there is a group that wear hoodies for their violent behaviour.

The point is that there is also a large number of people who DON'T who feel that as a result of this they get unfairly discriminated against and are trying to educated people that not everyone that wears a hoodie is a dangerous criminal. They know full well WHY they get associated, because the average person has bought into the idea that hoodies = criminal. When the reality it's Hoody + Suspicious behaviour = criminal.

[Vendetta]

I see that you are unaware of how things are in NZ. The people who commit crime, indulge in mall intimidation etc tend to wear hoodies. Hoodies will stop being associated with this behaviour when they stop wearing them, do you understand?

Or when so many other people wear them so commonly that the number of false positives overwhelmes the stereotype.

In the meantime, of course, anyone doing so will have to accept that they will be percieved through the lens of that stereotype.

[Stuart Mackey]

No, it's exactly the same situation in the UK as well.

To the point where one shopping center has banned ALL hoodies from it.

The point ISN'T that there is a group that wear hoodies for their violent behaviour.

The point is that there is also a large number of people who DON'T who feel that as a result of this they get unfairly discriminated against and are trying to educated people that not everyone that wears a hoodie is a dangerous criminal. They know full well WHY they get associated, because the average person has bought into the idea that hoodies = criminal. When the reality it's Hoody + Suspicious behaviour = criminal.

Well hey, welcome to real fucking life, you dress like a thug you will probably get treated like one, deal with it.

[Zac Naloen]

No, it's exactly the same situation in the UK as well.

To the point where one shopping center has banned ALL hoodies from it.

The point ISN'T that there is a group that wear hoodies for their violent behaviour.

The point is that there is also a large number of people who DON'T who feel that as a result of this they get unfairly discriminated against and are trying to educated people that not everyone that wears a hoodie is a dangerous criminal. They know full well WHY they get associated, because the average person has bought into the idea that hoodies = criminal. When the reality it's Hoody + Suspicious behaviour = criminal.

Well hey, welcome to real fucking life, you dress like a thug you will probably get treated like one, deal with it.

Yes well done on ignoring the point

[Stuart Mackey]

I see that you are unaware of how things are in NZ. The people who commit crime, indulge in mall intimidation etc tend to wear hoodies. Hoodies will stop being associated with this behaviour when they stop wearing them, do you understand?

Or when so many other people wear them so commonly that the number of false positives overwhelmes the stereotype.

I doubt that will happen here, to be honest.

In the meantime, of course, anyone doing so will have to accept that they will be percieved through the lens of that stereotype.

Yep. Its interesting to note that I got complaints from people in a store about the dodgy looking guy wearing the scruffy jeans and a hoodie, and he was doing nothing wrong, at all, but no one would suspect the respectable housewife, with a kid in tow, who was ripping them and a couple of other stores for a couple of thousand of goods(true story).

[bilateralrope]

Apart from when it gets on my glasses, being wet from the rain isn't an issue. But being cold from the rain is.

So how cold is the rain where you are ?

Wow. Is everyone in New Zealand as much of a pussy as you?

Only if they are from Auckland
So Bilateralrope, you a soft Aucklander, suffering your first real winter in Dunners?

I've been here in Dunedin a few years now, and I came from Wellington. Though when I think of walking through the rain, I think of my walk to uni which takes about half an hour each way. Even then I've yet to need anything beyond a summer raincoat and a sweater under it.

Though if your in the rain that long, a hoddie would be soaked through and probably worse than having nothing to cover your head.

As for umbrellas, the probably would work best at keeping your hair nice and styled (which I don't do). But given the number I've seen break in light winds (probably cheap ones), I don't really trust them.

I don't know, in the 40's F like everything else? Washington is rather famous for a dour, dreary climate like that.

Probably the same temperature as down here then.

I do see plenty of people wearing hoodies here among the students. But I can't remember seeing anyone who kept his hoodie up while inside.

[Stuart Mackey]

I've been here in Dunedin a few years now, and I came from Wellington. Though when I think of walking through the rain, I think of my walk to uni which takes about half an hour each way. Even then I've yet to need anything beyond a summer raincoat and a sweater under it.

Though if your in the rain that long, a hoddie would be soaked through and probably worse than having nothing to cover your head.

Hoodies are crap for that, and are not designed for it. Get a decent hat if you can afford it.

As for umbrellas, the probably would work best at keeping your hair nice and styled (which I don't do). But given the number I've seen break in light winds (probably cheap ones), I don't really trust them.

I found in my time there that you need to get a quality one, try one of the decent department stores up the road, they do cost more but you know the story about cost and quality.
Oh, the Cook and Bowler still there? The best place, imo, was the Oriental, which is well before your time, but it became a Fat Ladies Arms, much to my disgust, as they had the best student meals out.

[Winston Blake]

I agree with Darth Wong, except that 'hoody' is poorly defined. It's clear to me that Mike is talking about the hoodies in general, despite the fact that the term covers non-chav-wear. This may be causing misunderstandings.

I think the main point is that the typical hoody is loose and made of cheap material. Loose cheap pants + loose cheap jumper doesn't look good, hood or not. Any jumper could be a hoody with the addition of a hood and perhaps a front pocket. I'm sure Mike has jumpers - I doubt I would think he was thuggish if I saw him in the street after one was modified in this way.

These people aren't trying to advertise their thuggishness, and I wouldn't expect them to act boorishly. I'm pretty sure this isn't the sort of thing Mike is talking about.

[bilateralrope]

Why should I get a umbrella when my raincoat (not a hoodie) is waterproof ?

Also, even if the umbrella doesn't break from the wind, I'm not sure it will be comfortable to be holding it for the entire walk in.

[ArmorPierce]

I'm against liars, which is what you have when you get a young, culturally aware person wearing a hoodie in a culture where they are perceived that way, and then pretending he did not know that or take it into account. Or worse yet, pretending that while he knew of it, he needed to wear it, for some made-up pseudo-practical reasons.

There are plenty of practical reasons to wear it and I didn't realize that anyone held any such negative connotations such as you do over people wearing hoodies when it is a very common thing.

Do you honestly think you can bullshit me, whelp? Do you think I was born 30 years old? People pulled the same shit when I was a kid; wearing clothes that were intended to send a message, and then pretending that there were totally practical reasons. So by all means, continue to lie to your parents, but don't bullshit me. You know exactly what it means when you put on a do-rag.

Well I'm 21 so lying to my parents is not a factor. As I thought, you don't realize that a do-rag has any use. The only people that a do-rag serves no purpose are white people with straight hair. With coarse nappy hair that naturally grows with black people du-rags are very practical. For shorter hair it keeps the hair together and assist in making waves in the hair. Since I'm sure you don't know what I'm talking about here's a picture


Seriously, just how fucking gullible do you think I am? You figure you can say that a guy puts on a do-rag and has no intention whatsoever of associating himself with the do-rag stereotype? Or that he has some practical necessity for the fucking thing which forces him to associate with this stereotype against his will? Bull-fucking-shit. He bought the fucking thing with every intention of associating with a certain social stereotype, and he put it on with the same thing in mind. The only alternative is that he's a goddamned retard or lives in a cave, because that's the only way you could be unaware of such things[/quote]

here
For braids it again keeps the hair together and makes it so that the hair doesn't have to be rebraided as often. Since there's now a negative connotation what do you suggest be done? They need to change their hair style to fit into some people's stereotype and wear their hair with the big afros from the 70s or just keep it natural? Or they have to put in a lot more extra work into their hair (when they already put more work in their hair due to the nature of it) so that they conform to your preconceived notions? A Do-rags purpose is basically to hold the hair until they want to show it. I could tell that you've had little close association with black people.

I agree with Darth Wong, except that 'hoody' is poorly defined. It's clear to me that Mike is talking about the hoodies in general, despite the fact that the term covers non-chav-wear. This may be causing misunderstandings.

I think the main point is that the typical hoody is loose and made of cheap material. Loose cheap pants + loose cheap jumper doesn't look good, hood or not. Any jumper could be a hoody with the addition of a hood and perhaps a front pocket. I'm sure Mike has jumpers - I doubt I would think he was thuggish if I saw him in the street after one was modified in this way.

These people aren't trying to advertise their thuggishness, and I wouldn't expect them to act boorishly. I'm pretty sure this isn't the sort of thing Mike is talking about.

From the looks of it Darth Wong is talking about hoodies in general. Regardless, can you show me the type of hoodies that you find offensive vs the ones that you don't?

[Schuyler Colfax]

From the looks of it Darth Wong is talking about hoodies in general. Regardless, can you show me the type of hoodies that you find offensive vs the ones that you don't?

From the sound of it I think they have something against the looser ones as opposed to the tighter ones. And for the record I completely agree with you.

[ArmorPierce]

From the looks of it Darth Wong is talking about hoodies in general. Regardless, can you show me the type of hoodies that you find offensive vs the ones that you don't?

From the sound of it I think they have something against the looser ones as opposed to the tighter ones. And for the record I completely agree with you.

Except that Hoodies get worn by people of all ages for totally different reasons? It's not just Thugs that wear hoodies. They get worn by Athletes, Rockers, Emo's "Trendies" (haven't used that phrase for a few years)... the list goes on but i've run out of pigeon holes.

Wow, other categories of precocious brat.

Seems that he hasn't discriminated between what type of hoodie. I also fail to see the distinction between a looser fit hoodie vs a tighter hoodie. I suppose it would be slightly easier to stick something under it when you are in a store but that's kind of reaching I think.

[Darth Wong]

What the fuck makes you think I care about carefully defining hoodie types? The hoodie doesn't even carry that connotation where I live, at least not yet. Around here, the thugs prefer to dress in American gangsta-style, with do-rags and ridiculous low-hanging pants.

I'm referring to the kind of hoodie that is associated with problems in New Zealand where this situation is taking place. It doesn't matter to me which kind those people are thinking of, but they clearly have some particular look in mind, and I'm simply referring to that look, whatever it is.

[Spyder]

I'm just going to go ahead and change the thread title.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

These people aren't trying to advertise their thuggishness, and I wouldn't expect them to act boorishly. I'm pretty sure this isn't the sort of thing Mike is talking about.
<snip images>

Actually, put that last one on a skinhead with multiple tattoos and piercings with baggy pants and you'll have a perfect candidate for suspicion.

Which is my own view of the thing: Hoodies by themselves do not perpetrate the negative connotation. Hoodies are more icing on a slew of other stereotypes. A hoodie on a preppy, sporty girl, or a blatantly geeky hoodie on a frizz-haired, glasses-wearing type aren't going to give the 'thug' connotation.

On the other hand, a hoodie on a shaved, tattooed, pierced type is immediately going to set off alarms. It's not the hoodie itself that sets off the connotation, it's when it's combined with other stereotypes, and that's completely justified in my experience. I've yet to see any of the non-negative examples I've posted discriminated against for wearing hoodies. On the other hand, I've seen the chav-type discriminated against plenty of times, and justifiably so since they make up a disproportionate amount of crime that goes on here.

It's kind of a non-issue to me. A hoodie is quite nice over a majority of the fall and spring here as it is less stuffy than a jacket, and is excellent for covering the wide temperature variations we get during those months. I've yet to be discriminated against for wearing a hoodie because I don't have the look of any of the other stereotypes that Darth Wong and others have pointed out are 'commonly' associated with hoodies.

[Winston Blake]

[snip]

Seems that he hasn't discriminated between what type of hoodie. I also fail to see the distinction between a looser fit hoodie vs a tighter hoodie. I suppose it would be slightly easier to stick something under it when you are in a store but that's kind of reaching I think.

The typical hoody is pretty loose. Referring to hoodies in general naturally implies the typical kind. I don't need a teleological reason for looseness - it just looks like a bad fit. All other things equal, if I were an employer I'd prefer to hire a guy wearing clothes that actually fit, rather than baggy ones.

These people aren't trying to advertise their thuggishness, and I wouldn't expect them to act boorishly. I'm pretty sure this isn't the sort of thing Mike is talking about.
<snip images>

Actually, put that last one on a skinhead with multiple tattoos and piercings with baggy pants and you'll have a perfect candidate for suspicion.

'All other things equal'. A tattooed skinhead with clothes that all fit is less suspicious than a tattooed skinhead with baggy clothes.

[Zac Naloen]

The typical hoody is pretty loose. Referring to hoodies in general naturally implies the typical kind. I don't need a teleological reason for looseness - it just looks like a bad fit. All other things equal, if I were an employer I'd prefer to hire a guy wearing clothes that actually fit, rather than baggy ones.

Job interviews usually get brought up in this kind of discussion, and it's usually irrelevant. Job interviews have a very different set of rules about how to dress compared to a) what you wear doing the job and the dress code of the business.

You're dressing to impress at a job interview, anyone who wears casual clothes is a fucking idiot.

'All other things equal'. A tattooed skinhead with clothes that all fit is less suspicious than a tattooed skinhead with baggy clothes.

Really?

I disagree, I find them equally suspicious. The looseness of their clothes doesn't even come into it.

It's the type of Tattoo's and the Skinhead that alerts me more.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

'All other things equal'. A tattooed skinhead with clothes that all fit is less suspicious than a tattooed skinhead with baggy clothes.

My own experience argues differently. I keep a close eye on skinheads with tight-fitting wifebeaters and hoodies alike.

[Spin Echo]

Why would you need to protect your head from the rain? I grew up in one of the rainiest places in the country, acclimated to it, and now I don't even own an umbrella--no point in bothering with it. Your hair will dry in ten or fifteen minutes. Most people in the Pacific Northwest are like me, too.

Apart from when it gets on my glasses, being wet from the rain isn't an issue. But being cold from the rain is.

So how cold is the rain where you are ?

I don't know, in the 40's F like everything else? Washington is rather famous for a dour, dreary climate like that.

When I moved to New Zealand, an Aussie friend of mine warned me to be prepared to be colder than I have ever been in my life, even colder than in Boston or Norway. I thought that was a rather silly statement, because it can get pretty bloody cold in both those places whereas the climate in Welly very rarely drops below zero in winter.

After living in New Zealand for a while, I get what he means. Kiwi's seem to suffer under the delusion that because they live on an island, they must have a tropical climate. Their houses are insinsulated and they don't heat them either. There was a study of temperature in the student flats down in Otago in early spring. The found the temperatures ranged from 5C to 12C in a gaussian. In the winter, they found for most student flats, if you woke up in the morning and wanted to warm up, the best place to go was inside the fridge at a balmy 4C. Being cold and wet isn't so bad if you can go inside and warm up, but when you can't, it's miserable. Add in the humid climate, and things take noticeably longer to dry.

Wellington gets abut 1.5 times the rain fall of the Pacific Northwest. Add into the fact the relentless wind you get in Wellington, and an umbrella is not only useless, but usually broken within a few minutes. Hats had a bad tendency to disappear down the street. I personally dislike the hoodie for style reasons, but I still owned a few in New Zealand because they were practical for keeping warm.

[Darth Wong]

'All other things equal'. A tattooed skinhead with clothes that all fit is less suspicious than a tattooed skinhead with baggy clothes.

My own experience argues differently. I keep a close eye on skinheads with tight-fitting wifebeaters and hoodies alike.

A wifebeater is another stereotypical trailer-trash piece of clothing. The concept is not exclusive. But if I see some bald white guy wearing a business suit, I'm not going to be too concerned about him attacking me, and neither will anyone else. Like it or not, these clothing stereotypes exist for a reason, despite Keevan's bleatings. And they're self-reinforcing, because people know about the stereotypes and choose their clothing to suit. People know what they look like.