Echo base defenses - ???

[PeZook]

I personally think they simply thought orbital defence was their main priority, to allow an evacuation in case they were discovered, and ground defence was secondary to that goal, so most of their (limited) resources went to acquiring the huge-ass ion cannon and generators which could challenge ISDs in orbit. Even if they did manage to install heavy weaponry capable of destroying AT-ATs, that only means they delay the enemy some untill the Empire brings in more forces and some heavy artillery - if they don't have means of breaking an orbital blockade at that point, they're screwed.

It's like expecting guerillas somewhere in Central America to fortify their jungle compounds with minefields, counter-artillery batteries, heavy anti-tank weapons and modern SAMs, while in reality all they need is some basic defences to delay government forces and buy time for everybody else to melt away into the jungle.

[Omeganian]

I personally think they simply thought orbital defence was their main priority, to allow an evacuation in case they were discovered, and ground defence was secondary to that goal, so most of their (limited) resources went to acquiring the huge-ass ion cannon and generators which could challenge ISDs in orbit. Even if they did manage to install heavy weaponry capable of destroying AT-ATs, that only means they delay the enemy some untill the Empire brings in more forces and some heavy artillery - if they don't have means of breaking an orbital blockade at that point, they're screwed.

It's like expecting guerillas somewhere in Central America to fortify their jungle compounds with minefields, counter-artillery batteries, heavy anti-tank weapons and modern SAMs, while in reality all they need is some basic defences to delay government forces and buy time for everybody else to melt away into the jungle.

In this case, the guerrilla fighters had a modern and very expensive bunker. But it was only equipped with a few handguns against incoming demolition teams - which are the main threat even today. The Rebels needed at least some means to prevent the shield's destruction until they could shoot a few more SD's, release all transports at once, and minimize losses this way.

[PeZook]

In this case, the guerrilla fighters had a modern and very expensive bunker. But it was only equipped with a few handguns against incoming demolition teams - which are the main threat even today. The Rebels needed at least some means to prevent the shield's destruction until they could shoot a few more SD's, release all transports at once, and minimize losses this way.

That base wasn't particularly impressive by SW standards. Ozzel didn't even think the massive power generator was anything suspicious - a smuggler group is apparently able to procure and operate one just fine, or at least something similar to it.

And...demolition teams? Those were armored vehicles coming at them, not light infantry. They'd need heavy weapons to fight them, which they either didn't think to install, didn't yet have, or thought to be a waste of resources when they'd bugger off at the first sign of trouble. As I wrote, if they destroyed the attacking ground force entirely, but didn't have means of escaping the planet, they'd be screwed, so they probably installed the massive ion cannon first, worrying about ground defences second. Just like modern guerillas would dig fighting positions first, then worry about armor, only bothering to defend against air forces at the very end, because for them the light infantry ground forces are what can actually prevent escape most effectively.

[Aquatain]

Because the leaders of the rebellion knew that if the empire showed up it wouldn't matter if they had 1 or 10 or 20 turbolaser they would eventually get overwhelmed, their only chance was to run, the KDY-150 planetary defender is excellent for this .

[Darth Raptor]

I still think that the real issue is power, of which the Rebels had precious little to spare. Could they really have fed turbolasers without compromising the energy shield? The ion cannon they could get away with because they were juggling the two systems, but any kind of energy-based surface artillery would be running concurrently and would be a drain they couldn't afford. Their only alternative would be proton warheads, which they were probably evacuating or starfighter support, which they were using to cover the transports.

Also remember that Rogue Squadron was surprised that their blasters weren't penetrating. Even their for-serious anti-tank weaponry (the Atgar Towers) were all but useless.

[Sea Skimmer]

I personally think they simply thought orbital defence was their main priority, to allow an evacuation in case they were discovered, and ground defence was secondary to that goal, so most of their (limited) resources went to acquiring the huge-ass ion cannon and generators which could challenge ISDs in orbit. Even if they did manage to install heavy weaponry capable of destroying AT-ATs, that only means they delay the enemy some untill the Empire brings in more forces and some heavy artillery - if they don't have means of breaking an orbital blockade at that point, they're screwed.

That’s what I always thought too. I mean eventually they might have planned to bring in a few large ground defense weapons, but in all reality that’s probably just a waste of money. The longer the rebels hold out the stronger the Imperials become, they can land whole armies from just a few Star Destroyers. Quick escape is the only hope for survival. Really the Rebels want the minimal possible defense to avoid being overtaken by a quick surprise raid by light vehicles. Troops committed to the front line defense are probably all going to be lost in an evacuation, so you don’t want to throw too many men into the fight if you don’t have.

If the Rebels really had the spare resources for a heavier defense, we have no way of knowing this in canon, then those resources would have been best used setting up other bases. Good dispersion is vital to the survival of any insurgencies base system. The bigger a base, be it a single house or a cave complex on an ice moon, the more traffic in and out it and the more likely its going to be detected. The Rebel base on Hoth seems was important primarily because it housed the rebel command staff and top personal, so keeping a low profile is important.

Funny enough in the Vietnam War the US military invaded Cambodia partly in hopes of finding the headquarters for NVA forces in the south, which we expected would be a huge fortified complex of bunkers manned by at least a regiment. In fact the closest thing the NVA had to a top headquarters in the south of Indochina was just a few bunkers connected by a length of trench, which remained undiscovered despite sweeps by multiple US divisions.

[Connor MacLeod]

You dont need a turbolaser turret. Some fighter-grade lasercannon battery or capital ship point defense gun would work out too. Most actual turbolasers would probably be too big and unwieldy to make effective ground weapons.

and as many people mention, they were im the process of continuing to upgrade the base. The aforementioned Derra IV group destroyed was carrying vital supplies (and bringing another squadron of pilots/ships.), so they were shorthanded and under-equipped. And to be blunt, its not easy to supply a HIDDEN base, especially not now. Remember that the Empire is actively huhnting the REbellion (well Vader is at least), and the Rebels have to be cautious in delivering equipment. This limits how much and how quickly they can carry stuff to the base, which also means that building up will be a slow, laborious process. The need to hide/mask such efforts is also a not-insignificant issue.

More to the point, the addition of ground based lasers heavy enough to take on the AT-Ats would be redundant and wasteful. Had the base bene properly equipped and prepared, they probably could have used X-wings or other fighters to fend off the attack, even to the point of employing torpedoes to take down ground craft, and then evacuate.

If anyone is wondering why they didnt just use the fighters... well they weren't prepped at that time. We saw that even when Luke got to the place where his X-wing was, they were still in the process of evacuating and preparing. THe empire had caught them unprepared, ,recall, and they were understaffed, which means that between evacuating stuff and personnel.

At worst, some man-portable missile platform or proton grenade launcher would have been a good stopgap (proton grenades can damage starfighters, so they should harm an AT-AT) or thermal detonators. However, that runs to the supply issue again - muntiions are expendables, and they evidently didnt have many of those.

[Anguirus]

^ In addition, it's worth considering all the problems they had adapting their equipment to the conditions.

[Block]

Why weren't the fighters prepped though? That's the one thing that I never really got. I mean how long does it take? They had at least a full day after the probe droid was found didn't they? Or at least a number of hours right?

[Darth Raptor]

It's pretty clear that starfighter support was stretched thin escorting the transports out of the system. With only two fighters for each transport, they couldn't spare any for air cover.

[Isolder74]

Why weren't the fighters prepped though? That's the one thing that I never really got. I mean how long does it take? They had at least a full day after the probe droid was found didn't they? Or at least a number of hours right?

Prepped for space flight /= ready to fly in arctic conditions see Challenger Disaster.

The o rings on the boosters hardened and leaked. That was only from not even close to arctic conditions. No aircraft can be flown on Antarctica without major system modifications. They had to keep the x-wings warmed up for the pilots returning from flying the speeders. Just because something can fly about in space does not mean it can fly in cold air arctic conditions.

[Dark Flame]

Prepped for space flight /= ready to fly in arctic conditions see Challenger Disaster.

The o rings on the boosters hardened and leaked. That was only from not even close to arctic conditions. No aircraft can be flown on Antarctica without major system modifications. They had to keep the x-wings warmed up for the pilots returning from flying the speeders. Just because something can fly about in space does not mean it can fly in cold air arctic conditions.

I understand why regualar airplanes need to be adapted to the cold, but space-capable fighters like the X-Wings endure far colder temperatures in space than anything on Hoth. They also don't have O-rings on boosters to worry about.

[Isolder74]

Prepped for space flight /= ready to fly in arctic conditions see Challenger Disaster.

The o rings on the boosters hardened and leaked. That was only from not even close to arctic conditions. No aircraft can be flown on Antarctica without major system modifications. They had to keep the x-wings warmed up for the pilots returning from flying the speeders. Just because something can fly about in space does not mean it can fly in cold air arctic conditions.

I understand why regualar airplanes need to be adapted to the cold, but space-capable fighters like the X-Wings endure far colder temperatures in space than anything on Hoth. They also don't have O-rings on boosters to worry about.

You do not get it do you. I will refer you to elementary Thermodynamics. There is more to heat loss then just temperature. In an arctic environ, you have three kinds of heat exchanges taking place to compensate for. One radiation. Heat lost due to the fact the outside area is colder then the object. Convection. air near the object rising and carrying away heat from it. and conduction. Heat carried away by the air touching the object. One other thing plays into this density. cold air is denser then warm air and will pick up and carry away heat faster. Moving air take heat away faster as well.

In space, the only one of these you have to even worry about is radiation. space craft actually have problems getting TOO hot because they can't get rid of heat fast enough.

So it is not a odd conclusion that a starfighter might not be able to function even remotely normally on Hoth.

[Lord Revan]

Prepped for space flight /= ready to fly in arctic conditions see Challenger Disaster.

The o rings on the boosters hardened and leaked. That was only from not even close to arctic conditions. No aircraft can be flown on Antarctica without major system modifications. They had to keep the x-wings warmed up for the pilots returning from flying the speeders. Just because something can fly about in space does not mean it can fly in cold air arctic conditions.

I understand why regualar airplanes need to be adapted to the cold, but space-capable fighters like the X-Wings endure far colder temperatures in space than anything on Hoth. They also don't have O-rings on boosters to worry about.

actually it's harder to adapt to cold atmosspheric conditions then deep space as in deep space only a ship can "cool down" is via radiation of heat, while that's not the case when there's a medium aka air to transfer the heat away from the ship.

[Ford Prefect]

If anyone is wondering why they didnt just use the fighters... well they weren't prepped at that time.

And for that matter, required to escort the transports. It's probably dangerous to use the X-Wing books as evidence because of how wacky they are, but going by the fight that Rogue Squadron has with a bunch of AT-ATs, had they had snubfighters for close air support, the Imperial assault probably would have been gutted.

Which would have gained them nothing, as has been noted several times already.

[Saxtonite]

How come Echo base, with all its shields and ion cannons, and the personnel to protect, couldn't be spared a single turbolaser turret (removed from an old warship, for example) for attacking ground targets?.

Weren't the dish-shaped turrets that took a while to charge and able to destroy AT-STs in one shot Turbolaser turrets?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As a side note, the landspeeders the Alliance used in that battle had to be prepped to fly in those conditions. The standard models couldn't handle the cold. An X-wing is a more complicated craft, and needless to say, they just arrived and probably were still working on the solutions.

[Connor MacLeod]

Theres a n umber of reasons why the fighters weren't "ready" (I may be repeating what other ssay but I'm lazy so bear with me)

- its hard on fighters ot keep them all "ready" at a moment's notice for use - they'll only keep some of their fighters ready for launch (on "standby" as it were) to save on wear and tear (need to do repairs, replace parts, etc.) This is especially important given their own limited supplies and personnel (and the loss of the Derra IV convoy and its escorts.)

I imagine this is one reason they bothered with snowspeeders - for most purposes they'd probably be less maintenance intensive than the fighters would be.

- The Derra IV debacle deprived Echo Base of another squadron of fighters, which (IF I remember the novelization correcty) left them further shorthanded.

- The Imperials, despite Ozzel's incompetence, still surprised the Rebels. Deprived of time for adequate preparation, they could not adopt what would be (for them) an optimistic defense. (The fleet can't do squat againt the base as long as the shields are up, and if they'd had their fighters ready they could probably wipe out nearly any ground forces they could get through the shield. The shield also denies the Empire the ability to pass air support THROUGH the shield save having it carried t hrough, but that would be vulnerable to starfighter strafing.

Anyhow, with limited technical crews (Who are probably overworked as it is getting the base ready), a need to evacuate this base (which will also require at least some techs and other personnale) and the need to get escape transportts and theri fighter escorts ready, there's a limit to what they can do for the defense.

(And yes, you may ask: "Why didnt they just use the first fighters they got ready to attack the AT-ATs and further delay the Imperials?") The answer for that, of course, is that that would have delayed the actual evacuation. They have to decide whats important: get out at least some of the Rebel forces there (and apparently, the most important ones I would guess.. the command staff, the sensitive information, etc.) or risk dleaying its departure (and the capture of everything) buy putting up a stronger defense. They couldn't have it both ways, so I'm guessing they went with the "safe" option (some of it getting away is better than none)

[Connor MacLeod]

As a side note, the landspeeders the Alliance used in that battle had to be prepped to fly in those conditions. The standard models couldn't handle the cold. An X-wing is a more complicated craft, and needless to say, they just arrived and probably were still working on the solutions.

It was the speeders specifically stated to being adapted to the cold. X-wings as we see in TESB are MUCH more durable and versatile. Luke was able to fly his even after it was dunked in a SWAMP for god knows how long. More to the point, X-wings are known for being quite durable and "all weather capable" like that (the swamp dunking was explicitly mentioned in the SWTJ, for example.) so I doubt the "cold" would present anyy exceptiona problems for the fighter, especially given the myraid rigours of space combat and the fact the thing has deflector shields (which would greatly alleviate any problems of th eenviroment.)

As I said though, its not so much the weather conditions that will affect fighter prep so much as wanting to avoid excessive wear and tear, especialyl givne limited resources.

[JointStrikeFighter]

cold not much of an issue [paraphrased]

Its unlikely the X-wing has any de-icing gear. Ice is bad.

[Connor MacLeod]

How come Echo base, with all its shields and ion cannons, and the personnel to protect, couldn't be spared a single turbolaser turret (removed from an old warship, for example) for attacking ground targets?.

Weren't the dish-shaped turrets that took a while to charge and able to destroy AT-STs in one shot Turbolaser turrets?

No, those are anti-vehcile weapons, though outdated ones. The towers were anti-personnel turrets (though modified for anti-vehcile use as well.)

I honestly figure they (like the ground troops) weren't designed to be used solely against AT-ATs. Rather I figure that, had the base been fully equipped and prepared, you'd have seen the ground forces supplemented by speeders and/or X-wings to use against the heavier armor The Speeders, and the ground guns probably would have been used against supportting vehciles (like AT-STs, AT-TEs, or whatever other walkers or wheeled/tracked vehicles the Empire might employ) as well as againt dismounted infantry.

Could they have gotten heavier "artillery" for teh big vehciles like AT-ATs? Probably. They probably could have rigged somethi8ng up even if they hadn't (fighter laser cannons or capital ship point defense laser cannons would work) but with fighters aviaalble that would have been redundant (and wasteful, since they'd have to abandon them in an evacuation.)

I also figure the ion cannon was only there to help facilitate rapid evac as well - temporarily knock out any intercecpting warships in order to let ships pass. Anything more would have been pointless (and again, wasteful.) and for the purpose, turbolasers wouldn't have been as good.

[Connor MacLeod]

cold not much of an issue [paraphrased]

Its unlikely the X-wing has any de-icing gear. Ice is bad.

So? They had deflector shields. Those shields would have two purposes in an atmoshpere - help against atmospheric friction (allowing higher speeds in the atmosphere. As I recall the DK books mention shields being used to allow fighters to achieve hypersonic velocies in the atmosphere.

They'd also be deployed as protection against the same heavy vechiles/weapons they'd best be suited to attacking (like At-ATs).

Given those reasons for keeping shields active, and that shields really won't consume much if any energy (despite what hte X-wing games tell us), I doubt that a little ice is going to be a threat

[Darth Raptor]

Weren't the dish-shaped turrets that took a while to charge and able to destroy AT-STs in one shot Turbolaser turrets?

It's more or less the same technology, but no. The Atgar Towers are laser cannons designed for lighter vehicles like repulsor tanks or low-end walkers and tracked vehicles. Insufficient for the AT-AT, which is more like a mobile siege tower, not directly analogous to anything in modern warfare. We're talking about real artillery, like the Grand Army SPHATs at Geonosis.

[JointStrikeFighter]

cold not much of an issue [paraphrased]

Its unlikely the X-wing has any de-icing gear. Ice is bad.

So? They had deflector shields. Those shields would have two purposes in an atmoshpere - help against atmospheric friction (allowing higher speeds in the atmosphere. As I recall the DK books mention shields being used to allow fighters to achieve hypersonic velocies in the atmosphere.

They'd also be deployed as protection against the same heavy vechiles/weapons they'd best be suited to attacking (like At-ATs).

Given those reasons for keeping shields active, and that shields really won't consume much if any energy (despite what hte X-wing games tell us), I doubt that a little ice is going to be a threat

Protip; hypersonic velocities irrelevant to CAS operations underneath a strict ceiling and operational boundary?

[Connor MacLeod]

Protip; hypersonic velocities irrelevant to CAS operations underneath a strict ceiling and operational boundary?

Considering they can accelerate at hundreds of gees handily to instanlty slow down or start tup from such speeds? What's the problem? Neverminding that not all shields are the same.

Besides which, what does my example have to do with the fact that you were claiming an icee world is goign to be a major threat to a shielded X-wing? do you seriously think it can stop lasers and proton torpedoes but ice can get through??