[WH 40K] Significance of the Gene Seed?

[PeZook]

You know, that passage implies the Imperium has no precision MLRS-analogue or other similar munitions, and thus can't effectively counter artillery batteries which take hours to prepare while being hauled around in plain sight.

Hell, even standard well-directed tube artillery fire should've easily been able to destroy those guns in that time.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You know, that passage implies the Imperium has no precision MLRS-analogue or other similar munitions, and thus can't effectively counter artillery batteries which take hours to prepare while being hauled around in plain sight.

Hell, even standard well-directed tube artillery fire should've easily been able to destroy those guns in that time.

I don't think I have observed the Imperium hauling around signal intelligence units either. Or they rely on orbital intelligence but well, yeah. There are MLRS weapons, but precision? Nope.

[Kuja]

You mean even the Inquisition didn't smell anything of this? What happens when Uriel Ventris (if he does return) gets back with that lengthy report?

How would Ventris know where the Geneseed came from? He's not telepathic, and Honsou didn't exactly stand there and outline the history of his grand plan like some Bond villain for him.

Erm, there happened to be 2 Imperial Guardsmen if I am not wrong, who survived the destruction of the fortress who ended up as slaves on the Iron Warrior world in the Eye of Terror.

And then they bought it. So Lancer's still essentially correct.

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't think I have observed the Imperium hauling around signal intelligence units either. Or they rely on orbital intelligence but well, yeah.

Depends largely on the enemy, but Chaos and Tau forces have been subject to SIGINT (IA 3 and the Fire Warrior novel for the Tau, the Ghosts novel are the most obvious example for Chaos.) Both the Guard and Space Marines do it (William King's Space Wolves novels have it alot, as do the Ghosts.) Usuually its the vox operators who may do that, but I believe IA3 mentions dedicated segments of the Guard for SIGINT.

I also recall that in the Ghosts novels some of the Ghosts (such as Mkoll, teh scout leader) have eavesdropped on chaos troops via micro bead, as has Ragnar of the Space Wolves (via his personal comms.)

Eldar don't use easily "monitorable" conversations, and Tyranids and Orks, of course, have other ways of communicating. Though astropaths can also be used to eavesdrop as well I believe (clairvoyancec/clairaudiencec as well as telepathic eavesdropping.)

There are MLRS weapons, but precision? Nope.

Depends on how they handle the bombardment. They have ways of achieving precision (beacon markers, for example. The Iron Warriors used them in Storm of Iron in fact.) Calling in a strike on a position can also result in precision bombardments.

I vaguely recall that Basiliks can be used to shoot down dropships and such (one of the Armageddon novels) and that orbital bombardment has done so as well (the first Eisenhorn novel.)

Of course that also depends on how precise you define precise, and the kind of b ombardment being used.

You know, that passage implies the Imperium has no precision MLRS-analogue or other similar munitions, and thus can't effectively counter artillery batteries which take hours to prepare while being hauled around in plain sight.

Hell, even standard well-directed tube artillery fire should've easily been able to destroy those guns in that time.

They have various rocket/missile artillery. From Manticores (4 rockets) to Chimerro hunter killer racks (some sort of autoloading rack or a Mass-launch rack of IIRC 8 missiles), and of course those huge Deathstrike strategic bombardment weapons with intercontinentla range. The Jourans evidently didnt have anyn (or if they did, it was lost in the initial assaults or the sabotage)

Part of the problem with taking out their artillery as I recall was (aside from the fact that there were Chaos Titans there, that is) that the manner in which the Iron Warriors assaulted (surprise attack with orbital bombardment taking out a good deal of the initial defenses), the artillery was only able to engage when they were baiscally within "direct fire" range (kilometers away for the most part)

MLRS systems, as I recall, have both minimum and maximum effective ranges (And as far as I can tell from a brief googling, the min range for US MLRS is 10-15 km. I could be wrong though)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

And then they bought it. So Lancer's still essentially correct.

But they told Ventris where the geneseed came from?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

To elaborate, it came from chapter 8 of the book:

Leonid and Sergeant Ellard, .... spent the next hour and a half regaling Uriel and Pasanius of how they had ended up in slavery on the bleak daemon world of Medrengard, beginning with the devastating assault of the Iron Warriors on the world Of Hydra Cordatus just prior to the Despoiler's invasion through the Cadian Gate.

....

But ultimately, the story did not end well. The Iron Warriors finally took the citadel before Imperial reinforcements could arrive...

...

'Captain Eshara bought us some time, but it wasn't enough. The cavern below was too large and there was too much gene-seed to destroy. We-'

'Wait,' interrupted Uriel. 'Gene-seed? There was Space Marine gene-seed beneath your citadel?'

'Yes,' nodded Leonid.' 'An Adeptus Mechanicus magos... Honsou stole it and brought it to this world along with the slaves he took for his forges at the end."

So yes, Ventris does know where the gene-seed came from.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly the "how did Uriel know about the Gene-seed bit") doesn't bug me all that much. Uriel IS a captain of the Space Marines, and I'd expect the Astartes to be one of those alerted to the fact, even if the AdMech tried to cover up their little screwup. Reembmer that Hawke was recovered, so they knew something went wrong (and the Astartes know it too.) I'd bet the High Lords know what the base was for, so with that plus Hawke they could put two and two together.

And once the Astartes know, they (and the High Lords) would probably want to find and hunt down the lost gene-seed at all possible. I'd not be surprised in the least if a fair chunk of the Assasinorum wasn't dispatched for that very purpose.

[Connor MacLeod]

Fact is, the facility was very poorly defended and exposed.

Well gee, I'm glad you explained why this was so, I was afraid this would merely be an uninformed "I say so" post. Oh wait..

Do you have something other than your opinion to back that up? Perhaps something that takes into account the whole "high level sabotour" aspect also fit into things?

Now, perhaps the problem isn't with the effect the loss would have on the Imperium, but there's still the problem about the massive military boost that Chaos would get from capturing it. It's practically a one-stop shop for any aspiring Daemon Prince-to-be. This is exactly what happened.

In the long term, perhaps. And this assumes that its all viable (that chaos mutation doesn't affect it.) And mind you, they still have to hunt up suitable hosts, and implant them, all of which still takes time. At least, that was before what we found out in Dead Sky, Black Sun.

The real benefit, as I see it, is that the Gene Seed would have given Abbadon a potential pool of recruits he personally could draw on. he wouldn't have to rely on alliances with other Chaos warlords to conduct his own black Crusades, he could have his own troops (in addition to the Legion he runs) troops he could indoctirnate to be loyal to him. If he's smart and plans long term, he could probably come to dominate the Eye.

Makes me wonder if honsou double crossed Abbadon, or if he's carrying out whatever happens in DSBS on his orders. I'll have to look.

Admittedly the traitor stopped the Telepathica Astropaths from sending out a proper distress message, whereupon assistance might have arrived in time, but even then it would still too easy for the Iron Warriors. We can paint circumtance as being on the Iron Warriors' side, but what if the Imperial Fist strike cruiser didn't just happen to be passing by the system?

He did more than that. He was manipulating and (I further believE) Sabotaging the magos nutcase controlling the shields. He was also manipulating things quite a bit behind the scenes (he wanted to overthrow said magos remember?) And Lets not forget that his actions lead to a fair chunk of the Jourans getting killed prematurely by that tunnel collapse.

Lets also not forget that the Iron Warriors virtually were able to AMBUSH the planet (up to the point they atively had troops infiltrated into the planet) - that would have also required collusion on the inside to accomplish, nevermind to pull it off for months on end.

Oh and then there was that captured techpreist whatever that they infected with the obliterator virus and then infiltrated back into the place.

Fortunately most of the captured gene it was destroyed later on, but this doesn't excuse how easily it was captured. It would have been far more expedient to put the facility on a better defended world in the first place.
Even when considering the need for secrecy, the facility could easily have been built on an uninhabited world in a star system well within Segmentum Solar, instead of on the Dark Gods' doorstep.

It was captured by a surprise attack in collusion with a high level sabotuer who throughout the entire novel actively CONSPIRED.

[Stormbringer]

You know, that passage implies the Imperium has no precision MLRS-analogue or other similar munitions, and thus can't effectively counter artillery batteries which take hours to prepare while being hauled around in plain sight.

Hell, even standard well-directed tube artillery fire should've easily been able to destroy those guns in that time.

They do, one of the best examples being the Whirlwind used by the Space Marines. There are also various modifications of the Land Raider as well. No doubt there are similar equivalents in the Guard armory but they'd probably be handled by a specialist artillery outfit, which the Jouran Dragoons were not.

I'll point out that the Imperials in the citadel did do counter-battery fire with the guns and do some damage in this instance. As I recall, this was not the first time they had tried to do such a fire mission and were actually fairly successful earlier on. The problem is, of course, that doing effective counter battery fire from a fixed and unmovable position with established, well know fields of fire is not very easy. Historically it was extremely difficult and against sufficient resources, was nigh impossible at times.

[PeZook]

They have various rocket/missile artillery. From Manticores (4 rockets) to Chimerro hunter killer racks (some sort of autoloading rack or a Mass-launch rack of IIRC 8 missiles), and of course those huge Deathstrike strategic bombardment weapons with intercontinentla range. The Jourans evidently didnt have anyn (or if they did, it was lost in the initial assaults or the sabotage)

Hmm...yeah, I should've said it implies this particular outfit didn't have any rocket artillery.

Part of the problem with taking out their artillery as I recall was (aside from the fact that there were Chaos Titans there, that is) that the manner in which the Iron Warriors assaulted (surprise attack with orbital bombardment taking out a good deal of the initial defenses), the artillery was only able to engage when they were baiscally within "direct fire" range (kilometers away for the most part)

The short range is basically my gripe: if you are shooting at a target you can visually direct artillery fire at, and have hours to shoot at it, there's no way to miss, unless your artillery spotters are completely incompetent. We know from the passage that the trenches those Chaos guns were manhandled through were within the ield of fire of Guard Bassilisks ; Really, hitting a trench directly when it's within visual range is not difficult at all, even less if you have some specialized munitions. Hell, you can just use a long fuse to collapse the trench and make it impassable.

Visually directed artillery was precise enough to destroy German tanks on streets of Warsaw in 1939, it really should be able to kill guns manhandled slowly by slaves.