The Endor Holocaust

[Ted C]

OK, we know that the falling debris from the Death Star should have devastated Endor and wiped out the Ewoks and most other live on the planet/moon. We also know that for some reason, it didn't.

Hypothesis: The massive dish on Endor that the Rebel commando team destroyed only projected the shields that protected the Death Star. Maybe it caused the planetary shield to "bubble" out, or maybe it was an entirely separate shield generator, but whatever the case, Endor itself was still shielded when the dish projecting the shield around the Death Star blew. Consequently, the planetary shield protected Endor from the fallout of the destroyed Death Star, explaining how the Ewoks could survive and the Rebels could be on the surface throwing a party hours after the Death Star blew.

[VT-16]

Ever since the shockwave went out and Han and Leia weren't fried to a crisp, I'd imagined that the main shield around the moon was still intact.

[Coiler]

The ROTJ novelization says that both the DS and Endor itself stood in "empty, unprotected space" after the dish blew up, so your theory may be flawed.

[VT-16]

Hey, it's better than Glove of Darth Vader's spontanous hyperspace vortex sucking everything in but not the moon. Also the novelization had Owen being Obi-Wan's brother etc. But I guess even the revised novel has that "unprotected" bit. Which still doesn't make sense, since the DK book ITW:OT had emergency shield generators dropped down to the task force right after the shield dropped around the DSII.

I'd still contest they kept the main power generator for the moon itself intact.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, with the velocity of the ejecta and the waste heat of the explosion, Han and Leia shouldn't be enjoying a victory kiss and certainly hours later there shouldn't been celebrating. Saxton is right though that in the long term without a level of heavy lifting comparable to moving the Death Star II itself around, eventually the choking layer of debris will settle around the shield and when it comes down, Endor will die.

[Ender]

If the shield were still up the matter would have just collected on the surface of it instead, having the same nuclear winter effect. Further, the force of that much matter being slammed into the shield would have trashed the shield generator - conservation of momentum and all that.

We know from some of the old RPGs and Cloak of Decpetion that an agency exists to go in and save thigns after these kinds of disasters. I figure they stepped in once the rebels left and patched the place up.

[Ted C]

I'd still contest they kept the main power generator for the moon itself intact.

You'd almost think that leaving a shield around Endor itself operational would be part of the plan, since the Rebel Alliance isn't really known for planning suicide raids. Risky plans, yes; plans where the team getting killed is part of the plan, not so much.

[Ender]

I'd still contest they kept the main power generator for the moon itself intact.

You'd almost think that leaving a shield around Endor itself operational would be part of the plan, since the Rebel Alliance isn't really known for planning suicide raids. Risky plans, yes; plans where the team getting killed is part of the plan, not so much.

Actually ROTJ novel specifically says the Endor team is a mix of Spec Ops and suicide bombers.

[Ted C]

If the shield were still up the matter would have just collected on the surface of it instead, having the same nuclear winter effect. Further, the force of that much matter being slammed into the shield would have trashed the shield generator - conservation of momentum and all that.

As I understand it, a SW planetary shield will actually destroy anything that slams into it, rather than leaving it sitting on the shield.

Being able to handle the momentum is just a matter of design. You'd think the shields would be designed to handle things like asteroid impacts, after all.

[Galvatron]

Further, the force of that much matter being slammed into the shield would have trashed the shield generator - conservation of momentum and all that.

So what would a BDZ-level turbolaser bombardment do?

[Illuminatus Primus]

If the shield were still up the matter would have just collected on the surface of it instead, having the same nuclear winter effect. Further, the force of that much matter being slammed into the shield would have trashed the shield generator - conservation of momentum and all that.

We know from some of the old RPGs and Cloak of Decpetion that an agency exists to go in and save thigns after these kinds of disasters. I figure they stepped in once the rebels left and patched the place up.

Obviously they can harden against massive momentum transfers for the Alderaan shield to hold up momentarily; the Death Star II's explosion I imagine directs less force than than a beam capable of relativistically scattering an entire planet.

[Ender]

Further, the force of that much matter being slammed into the shield would have trashed the shield generator - conservation of momentum and all that.

So what would a BDZ-level turbolaser bombardment do?

much less as the momentum is lower and it is spread out over a greater period of time

[Ender]

As I understand it, a SW planetary shield will actually destroy anything that slams into it, rather than leaving it sitting on the shield.

I think it depends on the kind of shield present, but in that case it would still probably fail as it has to expend the energy to vaporize that much material and burns up. That's what the ROTS novel says happens anyways.

Being able to handle the momentum is just a matter of design. You'd think the shields would be designed to handle things like asteroid impacts, after all.

Where does it transfer the momentum to though? The crust? That sould have set off massive earthquakes and such, which we did not see.

Obviously they can harden against massive momentum transfers for the Alderaan shield to hold up momentarily; the Death Star II's explosion I imagine directs less force than than a beam capable of relativistically scattering an entire planet.

Or the momentum transfer is what made it fail. I'm crunching numbers now.

[Themightytom]

this might sound rediculously ignorant... because it is.. but would the incomplete superstructure of the death star have channeled the explosion in a particular direction? I feel like a power reactor that can channel energy to destroy a planet would release enough energy to make hundreds of miles of advanced alloys a non issue but then again what do I know about explosions.

In most of the images of the death star this doesn't help at all because the unfinished portions are facing the planet but if the Death Star was spinning on its axis to target rebel ships, the open section could have been pointing away from Endor when it exploded.

The Rebel fleet was between Endor and the Death star when the Falcon exited, so unless the death star turns on a dime, it w2as already pointing the beam weapon, and also the most finished part of the station in the general direction of Endor

(I'm thinking the blasts from the Death star that pass through capitol ships and keep on going is a major hole in this argument as they would have cooked large sections of forest)

We saw a fireball following the millenium falcon out of the DSII and ehading towards Endor, but the Rebel fleet was positioned between the explosion and the moon, if MOST of the explosion went in the other direction and carried the heavier pieces of debris with it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Or the momentum transfer is what made it fail. I'm crunching numbers now.

With a massless beam, the magnitude of the energy which must be dissipated is much more than the magnitude of the momentum which must be withstood. Still, the Death Star II's explosion's magnitude in both categories surely exceeds that of the Alderaan-kill beam, to say nothing of the fact that half of the latter is ejected away from the moon instead of toward it and much of it will impact at shallow angles, easily bouncing off or glancing impact. Contrariwise, the Alderaan-kill beam was also focused along a single and direct vector against the Alderaan shield.

[Ender]

Ok, number crunching - with a DS diametr of 900 km (r 450 km) and Forest Moon of Endor (FME) radius of 5200 km, and an orbital distance of 2000 km, the destruction of the DS would have caused ~8% of the total explosion to hit the FME. This does not take into account the gravitational attraction altering the debris path. The Death Star, at 60% completion, would have a volume of approximately 2.3*10^8 cubic kilometers. Thus 1.8*10^7 cubic km would have hit. For a density of water, this is 1.8*10^19 kgs. Dr. Saxton timed the explosion at 80 km/s, a figure I shall reuse. This works out to a momentum transfer of 1.4*10^24 kgm/s. Note that the assumption of water density is a gross underestimate - if true then firing its primary weapon would have accelerated the Death Star in the reverse direction at relativistic velocities. However, we don't know its true density or mass at thsis tage as it is incomplete and the bulk of its mass would presumably have been fuel.

this might sound rediculously ignorant... because it is.. but would the incomplete superstructure of the death star have channeled the explosion in a particular direction? I feel like a power reactor that can channel energy to destroy a planet would release enough energy to make hundreds of miles of advanced alloys a non issue but then again what do I know about explosions.

In most of the images of the death star this doesn't help at all because the unfinished portions are facing the planet but if the Death Star was spinning on its axis to target rebel ships, the open section could have been pointing away from Endor when it exploded.

The Rebel fleet was between Endor and the Death star when the Falcon exited, so unless the death star turns on a dime, it w2as already pointing the beam weapon, and also the most finished part of the station in the general direction of Endor

(I'm thinking the blasts from the Death star that pass through capitol ships and keep on going is a major hole in this argument as they would have cooked large sections of forest)

We saw a fireball following the millenium falcon out of the DSII and ehading towards Endor, but the Rebel fleet was positioned between the explosion and the moon, if MOST of the explosion went in the other direction and carried the heavier pieces of debris with it.

The FME for the above radius would have a mass of ~3*10^24 kgs. At 2000 km out, the escape velocity would be ~7.5 km/s. Your explanation requres the explosion plume to essentially work as a rocket. Thus since we know the exhaust velocity (80 km/s) and the delta V (7.5 km/s) we can find the mass ratio after the burn and figure out what portion of the DS was hurled at the FME to move it. e(7500/80000) = 1.1 From an initial mass of 2.3e20 kgs and with a mass ratio of 1.1, the final mass would be 2.09*10^20 kgs, with 2.06*10^19 kgs expelled towards the planet at 80 km/s. That would actually be worse.

Plus it doesn't match what we see on screen.


EDIT: corrected math flaw.

[Saxtonite]

Actually ROTJ novel specifically says the Endor team is a mix of Spec Ops and suicide bombers.

The original one? Can you post a quote and the like, I didn't see that.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ender: Would there be any danger from the shield absorbing KE via the momentum transfer? We know the shields probably have to brace against the planet, but even assuming that there is no problems in trasnferring momentum from shield to generators to planet (IE its all "smoothed out" perhaps byh some sort of planetary scale tensor field) we're talking momentum enough to impart some sort of motion to the planet's uniform mass. And if it ISN'T efficient, well.. (Say it accelerates parts of the planet's mass only, or parts of the mass gets accelerated faster than the rest...)

This would be especiallly alarming considering how conservative your calcs are, and especially if you include fuel mass, though we might posit the DS2 while fully operational, was not carrying enough fuel to utilize "full power" shots, which could also mean the required fuel mass is lower (somewhat only though.) Maybe the DS2 only carried enough energy for a few "minimal mass-scattering" level firepower events, or a much slower debris expansion than with, say, Alderaan.

I would also imagine that even if hypermatter is totally safe, you still wouldn't want huge amounts of fuel lying around while you are still buidling the thing, even if its systems were mostly or fully operational.

[dragon]

Well since they get hypermatter from some place outside the normal universe perhaps shield generators are able to dump the asorbed energy into this other space. Or where do ships send the energy their shields asorb.

[Vehrec]

Hey, it's better than Glove of Darth Vader's spontanous hyperspace vortex sucking everything in but not the moon. Also the novelization had Owen being Obi-Wan's brother etc. But I guess even the revised novel has that "unprotected" bit. Which still doesn't make sense, since the DK book ITW:OT had emergency shield generators dropped down to the task force right after the shield dropped around the DSII.

I'd still contest they kept the main power generator for the moon itself intact.

Give that we know that the Death Star was capable of displacing parts of Alderaan into hyperspace, its not as far-fetched as one might imagine. The highly energetic Runaway Hypermatter Reactor might well have eaten a large portion of the Death Star's interior, leaving much less debris than has been expected by a normal demolition of the station.

[Ender]

Well since they get hypermatter from some place outside the normal universe perhaps shield generators are able to dump the asorbed energy into this other space. Or where do ships send the energy their shields asorb.

*thwack* Bad poster! Bad! Don't violate the laws of thermodynamics! Shields reradiate the energy out into the surroundings in the form of neutrinos.


On topic Connor and I were picking each others brains last night, and a possible solution arouse out of the discussions. The repulsor cradle. Given its proximity to the planet the FME had to use repulsors to keep the station in orbit. This provides for the existance of a facility in the system capable of shifting around the mass of the entire Death Star. Using it to protect against the debris, which would only be ~8% of the total mass, is easily within its limits. Thus the debris could e deflected with ease. This leaves only the question of the radiation flash as a danger, making the situation considerably easier to resolve.

[dragon]

Well since they get hypermatter from some place outside the normal universe perhaps shield generators are able to dump the asorbed energy into this other space. Or where do ships send the energy their shields asorb.

*thwack* Bad poster! Bad! Don't violate the laws of thermodynamics! Shields reradiate the energy out into the surroundings in the form of neutrinos.


On topic Connor and I were picking each others brains last night, and a possible solution arouse out of the discussions. The repulsor cradle. Given its proximity to the planet the FME had to use repulsors to keep the station in orbit. This provides for the existance of a facility in the system capable of shifting around the mass of the entire Death Star. Using it to protect against the debris, which would only be ~8% of the total mass, is easily within its limits. Thus the debris could e deflected with ease. This leaves only the question of the radiation flash as a danger, making the situation considerably easier to resolve.

Picky aren't you its not as if most scifi doesn't violate some law or another. And that radiating neutrinos was just thrown into the mix to keep some people happy.

[Ender]

Well since they get hypermatter from some place outside the normal universe perhaps shield generators are able to dump the asorbed energy into this other space. Or where do ships send the energy their shields asorb.

*thwack* Bad poster! Bad! Don't violate the laws of thermodynamics! Shields reradiate the energy out into the surroundings in the form of neutrinos.

Picky aren't you its not as if most scifi doesn't violate some law or another. And that radiating neutrinos was just thrown into the mix to keep some people happy.

Care to prove that it was "thrown into the mix to keep some people happy", and not that it is a valid explanation for how they radiate away the energy when we see no visible radiators or otherwise expected release? Do keep in mind that supernovas release the bulk of their energy in the form of neutrinos, meaning it mirrors a natural process.

[Wyrm]

I'd like to know where the "hypermatter is pulled from outside the normal universe" business comes from as well, given that it too violates the first law of thermodynamics. (I was always under the impression that it was a high-grade secondary fuel.)

[Ender]

I'd like to know where the "hypermatter is pulled from outside the normal universe" business comes from as well, given that it too violates the first law of thermodynamics. (I was always under the impression that it was a high-grade secondary fuel.)

SFJ retards twisted a few lines in Death Star from a character who, in that same paragraph, heavily stresses he doesn't know the first thing about how hypermatter reactors work, to come up with this idea that SW stuff isn't as powerful as it is. Idiots here now parrot it.