starship troopers 3 (2008)

[VF5SS]

You're right, I'm sorry. He's not whiny, just annoying and devoid of anything
more substantive than a reference to an overrated webcomic.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!

Ok I'm done. I do sympathize with Molyneux's frustration with the adaptations of Starship Troopers. I'm in the process of gearing up for a big Starship Troopers podcast where we're gonna talk about as much SST as we can and its impact on Japanese sci-fi. I've managed to watch all three movies, the six episodes Uchuu no Senshi OVA, and I've started the Roughnecks CG cartoon and like a group of bad marksmen, they seem to keep missing the target.

[Plekhanov]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!

Ok I'm done. I do sympathize with Molyneux's frustration with the adaptations of Starship Troopers. I'm in the process of gearing up for a big Starship Troopers podcast where we're gonna talk about as much SST as we can and its impact on Japanese sci-fi. I've managed to watch all three movies, the six episodes Uchuu no Senshi OVA, and I've started the Roughnecks CG cartoon and like a group of bad marksmen, they seem to keep missing the target.

Verhoeven & Neumeier hit their target with SST1, the thing which pisses Heinlein fanboys off is that they were aiming to satirise Heinlein's fascistic vision instead of aiming to worshipfully adapt SST in the way the fanboys wanted.

[Stark]

Turns out the society described in SST was hilariously broken, so they pilloried it. ZOMG!

Then again, I can forgive Americans. Their actual TV is like that, so maybe it wasn't obvious enough for them.

[Thag]

After watching the trailer, I have to ask: where is Graham Chapman? Isn't he supposed to come out in his uniform and shut the program down for being too silly? Please tell me he's in there somewhere.

[Uraniun235]

You're right, I'm sorry. He's not whiny, just annoying and devoid of anything more substantive than a reference to an overrated webcomic.

As far as substance goes, your post got exactly the response it deserved.

[VF5SS]

Verhoeven & Neumeier hit their target with SST1, the thing which pisses Heinlein fanboys off is that they were aiming to satirise Heinlein's fascistic vision instead of aiming to worshipfully adapt SST in the way the fanboys wanted.

So they just trolled harder than Heinlein? I don't get it. The book is just about this guy who joins the army, trains a bit, goes to class so we can learned about their fucked up society, and along the way speaks some Tagalog, wears jewelry, and pilots a sweet power suit. Can't I just have that?

[Molyneux]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!

Ok I'm done. I do sympathize with Molyneux's frustration with the adaptations of Starship Troopers. I'm in the process of gearing up for a big Starship Troopers podcast where we're gonna talk about as much SST as we can and its impact on Japanese sci-fi. I've managed to watch all three movies, the six episodes Uchuu no Senshi OVA, and I've started the Roughnecks CG cartoon and like a group of bad marksmen, they seem to keep missing the target.

Verhoeven & Neumeier hit their target with SST1, the thing which pisses Heinlein fanboys off is that they were aiming to satirise Heinlein's fascistic vision instead of aiming to worshipfully adapt SST in the way the fanboys wanted.

The thing that pissed me off about SST1 was the lack of giant robotic armored suits! How hard is that to understand? I don't give a fuck about the politics. I don't care about the satire.

I would have been happy if they had had the main character played by Bozo the Clown if they had included gorilla suits instead of dime-store breastplates and stupid-looking helmets.

[Coyote]

The lack of powered armor when it could have been so easily pulled off using CGI was pretty lame, IMO.

The Roughnecks cartoon was better than the live-action movies, too, I think. The characters and dialogue just seemed more... organized.

[Shroom Man 777]

Starship Troopers isn't a new movie. Back then, powered armor would've looked hokey with the not-so-developed CGI. Besides, it was an awesome movie!

[[R_H]]

The lack of powered armor when it could have been so easily pulled off using CGI was pretty lame, IMO.

The Roughnecks cartoon was better than the live-action movies, too, I think. The characters and dialogue just seemed more... organized.

+1, loved the Roughnecks cartoon compared to the live-action movies. Especially SST2.

Question, how effective would barbed wire be against the bugs? Or caltrops?

[Coyote]

Starship Troopers isn't a new movie. Back then, powered armor would've looked hokey with the not-so-developed CGI. Besides, it was an awesome movie!

I dunno about the CGI; after all, the bugs were CGI and I thought they did a good job on them.

The thing is, people lament the lack of basic military things such as tanks, air support, heavy weapons, etc in the movie. The powered armor made it all redundant: every soldier was a tank, heavy weapon, and air support as needed. So in the movie, they took away the powered armor and replaced it with... well, some nuclear hand grenades.

And part of the 'schtick' of the powered armor was that in the society where personal power was truncated (you couldn't even vote unless you were a veteran)-- and Johnny went from being a powerless non-citizen to having awesome power and responsibility by wearing the suit; there was a sort of "the power of an enlightened person" dynamic being commented on in a way (that's one of the things I got from it, anyway). It seems like almost everyone walks away from the ST book with something different.

[Plekhanov]

So they just trolled harder than Heinlein? I don't get it. The book is just about this guy who joins the army, trains a bit, goes to class so we can learned about their fucked up society, and along the way speaks some Tagalog, wears jewelry, and pilots a sweet power suit. Can't I just have that?

Oh come on the book is predominantly a series of speeches and monologues about how great their society is, how 'it just works' and how terrible liberal democracy is. You can hardly expect someone who grew up under Nazi occupation not to react to that.

The sci-fi combat bits, which are undoubtedly pretty cool make up only a small portion of the book.

The thing that pissed me off about SST1 was the lack of giant robotic armored suits! How hard is that to understand? I don't give a fuck about the politics. I don't care about the satire.

I would have been happy if they had had the main character played by Bozo the Clown if they had included gorilla suits instead of dime-store breastplates and stupid-looking helmets.

I expect they'd have liked to feature the suits as well but couldn't figure out how to get them onto the screen is a good looking or coherent manner back in 1997. If they made it today with the level of CG shown in the likes of Transformers no doubt you'd get giant armoured suits leaping and flying about the place alongside the satire.

[Plekhanov]

I dunno about the CGI; after all, the bugs were CGI and I thought they did a good job on them.

They were fairly static shots though with as I recall CG bugs being added into conventionally shot real landscapes, the MI in the books leap & fly all over the place at great speed in a manner more like that seen in the recent Transformers film or maybe thinking back a few years Hulk, and the CG scenes in that were by no means entirely convincing.

[Netko]

Even now in the third movie, although it was done on the cheap admittedly, the power suits (the titular Marauders) had several shots where it was obvious they were CGI.

----

The movie was hilarious. It crossed from a satiric action sci-fi movie of the first one into outright parody (seriously, by the end I was in stitches, the Dr. Strangelove bombing sealed the deal). Hilarious, sometimes bad, but mostly hilarious. Plus, with tits! - which are also shown so proudly that the irony and mocking of the first movie and its nudity (and the audience's reaction to it) is palpable.

[Plekhanov]

Even now in the third movie, although it was done on the cheap admittedly, the power suits (the titular Marauders) had several shots where it was obvious they were CGI.

I thought they handled the suits poorly in this film as well, aside from looking obviously CG they just plodded about the place which was disappointing.

The movie was hilarious. It crossed from a satiric action sci-fi movie of the first one into outright parody (seriously, by the end I was in stitches, the Dr. Strangelove bombing sealed the deal). Hilarious, sometimes bad, but mostly hilarious. Plus, with tits! - which are also shown so proudly that the irony and mocking of the first movie and its nudity (and the audience's reaction to it) is palpable.

The end battle with praying women superimposed over slow motion explosions, a cross shaped gun firing and so forth was one of the more over the top scenes I can remember seeing for a while.

[Sea Skimmer]

Oh come on the book is predominantly a series of speeches and monologues about how great their society is, how 'it just works' and how terrible liberal democracy is. You can hardly expect someone who grew up under Nazi occupation not to react to that.

Really, it’s about how much democracy sucks? Then why is the society in SST a democracy? Sure not everyone can vote… everyone can’t vote in real life either, and all modern democracies are representative republics in reality. SST simply set higher standards for voting, and yet the standard is still less harsh then the original US constitution, which denied the vote to over half the population outright.

Funny you should bring up the Nazis though, considering that Hitler failed to gain power by direct armed force, but then got himself voted in as dictator. Victory for democracy!

I expect they'd have liked to feature the suits as well but couldn't figure out how to get them onto the screen is a good looking or coherent manner back in 1997. If they made it today with the level of CG shown in the likes of Transformers no doubt you'd get giant armoured suits leaping and flying about the place alongside the satire.

Verhoeven claimed they could have done the powered suits, but the budget couldn’t cover the suits AND CGI aliens. I don’t particularly believe that, I think he just wanted idiots running around with rifles to make the movie funnier. Filming all those guys running around in Utah (I think it was Utah anyway) was not cheap at all. He also said he never read the book in the same interview BTW.

[Plekhanov]

Oh come on the book is predominantly a series of speeches and monologues about how great their society is, how 'it just works' and how terrible liberal democracy is. You can hardly expect someone who grew up under Nazi occupation not to react to that.

Really, it’s about how much democracy sucks? Then why is the society in SST a democracy? Sure not everyone can vote… everyone can’t vote in real life either, and all modern democracies are representative republics in reality.

You know if I'd actually said 'democracy' instead of 'liberal democracy' (with equal emphasis on both words) you might almost have a point.

SST simply set higher standards for voting, and yet the standard is still less harsh then the original US constitution, which denied the vote to over half the population outright.

Yes and? What's so great about Heinlein not endorsing race slavery or a male only franchise?

Funny you should bring up the Nazis though, considering that Hitler failed to gain power by direct armed force, but then got himself voted in as dictator. Victory for democracy!

Well that was relevant I don't recall anyone, least of all myself arguing that all forms of democracy work in all circumstances simply that Heinlein spent a lot of time bitching about how much he disliked the liberal democracy he was living in.

expect they'd have liked to feature the suits as well but couldn't figure out how to get them onto the screen is a good looking or coherent manner back in 1997. If they made it today with the level of CG shown in the likes of Transformers no doubt you'd get giant armoured suits leaping and flying about the place alongside the satire.

Verhoeven claimed they could have done the powered suits, but the budget couldn’t cover the suits AND CGI aliens. I don’t particularly believe that, I think he just wanted idiots running around with rifles to make the movie funnier. Filming all those guys running around in Utah (I think it was Utah anyway) was not cheap at all. He also said he never read the book in the same interview BTW.

I know he didn't read the whole book, that doesn't mean the scriptwriter didn't.

[Darth Hoth]

Verhoeven & Neumeier hit their target with SST1, the thing which pisses Heinlein fanboys off is that they were aiming to satirise Heinlein's fascistic vision instead of aiming to worshipfully adapt SST in the way the fanboys wanted.

I love it how SST-haters call it "fascist" at every turn. I assume that you will now provide full quotes and circumstances showing racism, extreme nationalism, totalitarianism, the Mass Party, adherence to the Führerprinzip et cetera. Or are you the kind of moron who simply likes to use "fascist" as a slur for everything right-of-centre you do not like, from neo-Nazis to George W. Bush to patrolling officers who hand you traffic tickets?

You know if I'd actually said 'democracy' instead of 'liberal democracy' (with equal emphasis on both words) you might almost have a point.

Then you admit that the Federation is not fascist, or even dictatorial? That is an improvement.

Yes and? What's so great about Heinlein not endorsing race slavery or a male only franchise?

Um, the fact that he wrote a multicultural, non-racist, non-sexist novel at a time when PC was not yet around, military academies did not yet accept women and blacks did not in practice hold the vote in large parts of his country? Does the word "context" mean anything to you?

Well that was relevant I don't recall anyone, least of all myself arguing that all forms of democracy work in all circumstances simply that Heinlein spent a lot of time bitching about how much he disliked the liberal democracy he was living in.

This makes his book fascist how? Or relevant its portrayal as Nazi Germany In Space? Above all, what gave Verhoeven the right to butcher it like he did, and then claim that he did show the Federation as Heinlein intended it? He merely had an axe he wished to grind cheaply. Normally, I frown on that kind of book or film.

[Darth Hoth]

On the thread topic: I looked up a few videos, and Jesus H. Christ!

If what I saw is even remotely representative, that sets a completely new standard for Epic Fail. The Federation just went from Evil America to Nazis x10^15. . . and they have Mechas! All wound up with a tasteless caricature of Christianity. I shall not even begin to list the rest. . .

If the Imperium of Man lived in an American consumer society and had stupid juvenile fiction like the old Captain America comics, this would probably be it.

[NecronLord]

and they have Mechas!

I'm given to understand that the Heinlein novel pretty much invented the "battlesuit" concept.

EDIT: On more consultation, I think it may actually just be very heavy power armour; which I suppose does mean the twenty foot ricomechs are absurd.

[NecronLord]

Verhoeven & Neumeier hit their target with SST1, the thing which pisses Heinlein fanboys off is that they were aiming to satirise Heinlein's fascistic vision instead of aiming to worshipfully adapt SST in the way the fanboys wanted.

I love it how SST-haters call it "fascist" at every turn. I assume that you will now provide full quotes and circumstances showing racism, extreme nationalism, totalitarianism, the Mass Party, adherence to the Führerprinzip et cetera. Or are you the kind of moron who simply likes to use "fascist" as a slur for everything right-of-centre you do not like, from neo-Nazis to George W. Bush to patrolling officers who hand you traffic tickets?

Here is an uploaded copy of part of the commentary, uploaded by a third party subscriber to Youtube from the DVD. In this Verhoven and Neumeier explicitly repeat over and over that it is intended to be a 'essentially a fascist action adventure film'

The clear and repeated stated intent of Mr Verhoven and Mr Neumeier is to depict what they call a fascist state.

Verhoven's version is intended to depict a 'fascist' 'all statements are about the United States.' That's the authorial intent. Verhoven's version is 'fascist' and this is not what Heinlein's fans wanted, which angers them, as Plekhanov said, no?

[Darth Hoth]

and they have Mechas!

I'm given to understand that the Heinlein novel pretty much invented the "battlesuit" concept.

EDIT: On more consultation, I think it may actually just be very heavy power armour; which I suppose does mean the twenty foot ricomechs are absurd.

Pretty much, yes. They are no such thing as even remotely similar to the book's armours.

Here is an uploaded copy of part of the commentary, uploaded by a third party subscriber to Youtube from the DVD. In this Verhoven and Neumeier explicitly repeat over and over that it is intended to be a 'essentially a fascist action adventure film'

The clear and repeated stated intent of Mr Verhoven and Mr Neumeier is to depict what they call a fascist state.

Verhoven's version is intended to depict a 'fascist' 'all statements are about the United States.' That's the authorial intent. Verhoven's version is 'fascist' and this is not what Heinlein's fans wanted, which angers them, as Plekhanov said, no?

No, he said pretty explicitly that he considered Heinlein's Federation in the original to be fascist:

Personally I found the 1st film a blast and enjoyed the action, the subversion of Heinlein's fascistic utopia and the satire of contemporary politics.

Emphasis mine. And again:

Verhoeven & Neumeier hit their target with SST1, the thing which pisses Heinlein fanboys off is that they were aiming to satirise Heinlein's fascistic vision instead of aiming to worshipfully adapt SST in the way the fanboys wanted.

Emphasis is still mine. He, like Verhoeven, thinks that the message of the book itself is fascist.

[Beowulf]

SST invented the concept of power armor, which was expounded upon by Japanese fiction to create the standard Mecha we know and love.

You claim that the book is Fascist, Plekhanov. Prove it. Give quotes. Or give up.

[Tanasinn]

See, the fact that the SST movie (series) is supposed to be satire doesn't bother me so much as the fact that's it's poor satire: ham-fisted, over the top, and unfunny. It's like watching a child try to grasp the concept of sarcasm for the first time: boring and annoying.

[NecronLord]

SST invented the concept of power armor,

I wouldn't go that far. Earlier books by one of Heinlien's friends - E.E.Smith's lensmen books to be precise - had armour that was powered (and capable of FTL travel) in a very similar, if less emphasised, concept.