Darth Wong wrote:Why would you think Obama was trying to talk to people like you when he was in Berlin? Did it cross your mind that he might be talking to the Germans who were present?
People like you ask why anyone should trust that Obama can improve relations with Europe. It's interesting that you totally ignore the fact that he is obviously far more popular in Europe than any Republican. Do you honestly not see how that might be relevant to his ability to improve relations with Europe?
He is running for US president. Everything he does is designed to be consumed by the media, and by extension, the American public. He was talking to us and his groupies in Germany.
Bullshit. He was not trying to convince idiotic right-wing twits such as yourself that he is one of you. He was talking to Germans, and knowing that Americans might be listening in.
And you ignored the argument.
Bullshit yourself. He was trying to convince me and everybody else in America that he can be taken seriously on foriegn policy.
What argument? That because he gushed about the Berlin Airlift and gave a feel-good speech he can improve "relations with Europe"?
Please.
Darth Wong wrote:Bullshit. He was not trying to convince idiotic right-wing twits such as yourself that he is one of you. He was talking to Germans, and knowing that Americans might be listening in.
And you ignored the argument.
Bullshit yourself. He was trying to convince me and everybody else in America that he can be taken seriously on foriegn policy.
You really don't read, do you?
What argument? That because he gushed about the Berlin Airlift and gave a feel-good speech he can improve "relations with Europe"?
Please.
Wrong. That was not my argument. Yet AGAIN, you demonstrate that you can't read.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
I don't really get why it is so bad that Obama might have considered american viewers looking at his speech. I also do not get how it is in any despicable that this might have been his reason to go abroad - to show the american public that he can do foreign policy. Every time the american president gives a speech in front of important german landmarks, they know and in fact welcome that the american public is also listening in. There is a reason why photo-ops are so fashionable when going abroad - because you can show your electorate that you are doing something.
So why should Obama be any different from, say, Kennedy or even John McCain, who did a trip abroad as well? Hint: He isn't. It is just right wingers getting their panties in a twist because John McCain did not receive any attention over his foreign policy tour.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
American Infidel wrote:
He is running for US president. Everything he does is designed to be consumed by the media, and by extension, the American public. He was talking to us and his groupies in Germany.
Bullshit. He was not trying to convince idiotic right-wing twits such as yourself that he is one of you. He was talking to Germans, and knowing that Americans might be listening in.
And you ignored the argument.
Bullshit yourself. He was trying to convince me and everybody else in America that he can be taken seriously on foriegn policy.
What argument? That because he gushed about the Berlin Airlift and gave a feel-good speech he can improve "relations with Europe"?
Please.
Tell you what —when you can come back here with something resembling a halfway-intelligent argument, give us a call.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House
Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
American Infidel wrote:What argument? That because he gushed about the Berlin Airlift and gave a feel-good speech he can improve "relations with Europe"?
Please.
No, that becasue he drew in a motherfucking huge crowd he can improve relations with Europe. This should be obvious, but you are too much of an idiot to see it.
How does his crowd appeal make him negotiator for improving relations?
Are you honestly so fucking stupid that you don't understand how popularity among the citizenry affects the attitude of the leadership in a democratic society?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
How does his crowd appeal make him negotiator for improving relations?
Are you honestly so fucking stupid that you don't understand how popularity among the citizenry affects the attitude of the leadership in a democratic society?
I understand that.
What I mean is that his crowd appeal doesn't indicate his abilities as a negotiator.
Ender wrote:This does not distract from the actual issue, which is the question of why anyone needs convincing that genocide needs to be stopped.
Don't many people deny and go against these types of things because they don't want to be involved in wars or and sort of conflict (democratic societies are especially hard to persuade to send troops in that manner or end up in wars-even if they're threatened). Especially given the low popular support for wars in the US in general.
But Obama's crowd appeal does indicate that the leadership of the countries will look on him with more favor, which gives him an advantage before any negotiations start. As far as his actual negotiation skills, I personally haven't seen anything on them -- but neither have I seen anything regarding John McCain's negotiation skills. Heuristically, though, Obama is a far superior negotiation than McCain because he at least recognizes that negotiation is necessary; McCain, in trying to appeal to the right-wing, thinks that negotiation is "naive".
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
How does his crowd appeal make him negotiator for improving relations?
Are you honestly so fucking stupid that you don't understand how popularity among the citizenry affects the attitude of the leadership in a democratic society?
I understand that.
What I mean is that his crowd appeal doesn't indicate his abilities as a negotiator.
OK, think about it for a moment: you derisively accuse him of pandering to his German "groupies", but it shows that he recognizes the need to consider what other nations' citizens want to hear. That already puts him far ahead of McCain, who belongs to the George W. Bush "you are either with us or against us" school of thought.
The first step in negotiations is understanding what the other side wants, because you need to know that in order to reach an accomodation. If you can't even get that far (and McCain shows no interest in doing so), then negotiations are impossible.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Even if you're going to be a power-mad asshole, you still need to understand these motives, because understanding your allies is power. The American trend of baldfaced ignorance and dismissal is not going to generate good results.
Stark wrote:Even if you're going to be a power-mad asshole, you still need to understand these motives, because understanding your allies is power. The American trend of baldfaced ignorance and dismissal is not going to generate good results.
And while we're at it, understanding your enemies is also power. It is naive and idiotic to just dismiss all those who fight against you as "evil", yet that is what the American public and leadership has insisted in doing for the past seven years.
That is why it's sometimes beneficial to negotiate with your enemies. By gaining a clearer understanding of where they stand, you can develop more comprehensive and effective strategies for dealing with them.
In negotiations, before you even go into the room with the other party, you must know what they want and what you want, and you must be able to reach a compromise somewhere between the two. Obama showed he understands that by drawing such a massive group in Germany and being able to inspire such a following there.
Besides, how often does the POTUS himself actually go into negotiations that aren't a formality?
Parrothead | CINC HABNAV | Black Mage In Training (Invited by Lady T)
