The Endor Holocaust

[Maxentius]

We know now that the DS2 was 900km, given this figure and the holographic briefing model during the scenes aboard Home One in ROTJ, would it not be possible to scale a figure from screencaps? Being as it is a figure derived directly from the movies, I believe it would also trump the Wizards guide with regards to canon ranking.

EDIT: Got this picture. http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/rotj058.jpg

I'd scale it myself but my copy of Photoshop is on another computer, and MS Paint is hardly conducive to precise pixel counts.

[Themightytom]

We know now that the DS2 was 900km, given this figure and the holographic briefing model during the scenes aboard Home One in ROTJ, would it not be possible to scale a figure from screencaps? Being as it is a figure derived directly from the movies, I believe it would also trump the Wizards guide with regards to canon ranking.

EDIT: Got this picture. http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/rotj058.jpg

I'd scale it myself but my copy of Photoshop is on another computer, and MS Paint is hardly conducive to precise pixel counts.

I really want to yell "Down in front!" Ackbar's dome is blocking the view.

[Pelranius]

Would in system debris come back to haunt Endor once the Rebels packed up camp and took (or scavenged captured equipment) whatever shield generators they had?

Being bombarded for the next twenty years with skyscraper sized chunks of metal debris is not going to be fun for the Ewoks.

[Connor MacLeod]

If it were that small, the DS2 would be really tiny; certainly not 900 km, which is almost a fifth of that. They probably meant "radius".

That's probably the point. It makes me wonder if this wasn't someone (Sarli's) attempt to try and sneak in a "smaller DS2" into continuity by claiming Endor was alot smaller in diameter than it acutally could be.

[Connor MacLeod]

EDIT: NM, math is not something I should do so shortly after getting back from the gym. Force of the debris would be ~100-1000x greater then the force of stationkeeping, but that is treating it all as one mass. Spread out, the repulsor should still handily deflect it, though the FME would still see periodic bombardment from deflected pieces falling into the gravity well over time.

True, but also remember the point of the repulsor isnt to slow down or stop all the debris, its to deflect as much of it away from the planet as possible, and to do that you'd probably want it to retain as much of its momentum as it could. I imagine some derbris could not be stopped (there may still have been impacts.) but even then it probbly would have been greatly slowed by the repulsor.

If one posits the Endor shield as being a network, and that the rebels had merely cut power to it (and subsequently reactivated the undamaged parts of the network via backup reactor) you can actually cut down on how much area the repulsor would need to cover/protect: the repuslor could simply deflect some debris enough so it hits the shield.

[Ender]

EDIT: NM, math is not something I should do so shortly after getting back from the gym. Force of the debris would be ~100-1000x greater then the force of stationkeeping, but that is treating it all as one mass. Spread out, the repulsor should still handily deflect it, though the FME would still see periodic bombardment from deflected pieces falling into the gravity well over time.

True, but also remember the point of the repulsor isnt to slow down or stop all the debris, its to deflect as much of it away from the planet as possible, and to do that you'd probably want it to retain as much of its momentum as it could. I imagine some derbris could not be stopped (there may still have been impacts.) but even then it probbly would have been greatly slowed by the repulsor.

If one posits the Endor shield as being a network, and that the rebels had merely cut power to it (and subsequently reactivated the undamaged parts of the network via backup reactor) you can actually cut down on how much area the repulsor would need to cover/protect: the repuslor could simply deflect some debris enough so it hits the shield.

Yeah, there is also the time issue - it would take over a minute for the debris to travel to the FME, so you have the constant force to decelerate it. I'm doing the numbers now, figuring out all the vectors for deflection is more work then I expected.

Also, it occurs to me that the cradle has to be able to hold the completed DS2 as well, so since the mass of that is so much greater the strength of the cradle at full power has to be much more as well. So my earlier edited figures are null and void.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, there is also the time issue - it would take over a minute for the debris to travel to the FME, so you have the constant force to decelerate it. I'm doing the numbers now, figuring out all the vectors for deflection is more work then I expected.

Also, it occurs to me that the cradle has to be able to hold the completed DS2 as well, so since the mass of that is so much greater the strength of the cradle at full power has to be much more as well. So my earlier edited figures are null and void.

I forgot about the time issue, I admit. That does help things out somewhat, especially since Repuslors can act at much greater distances than the shield can.

The other thing we haven't considered is how much "safety margin" the repulsor would have (by that I mean how much more power/capacity it had beyond what it was doing to sustain the DS2.) It could be quite a bit, or it coudl be very little (say it 10-20% of capcity to 70-80% or more.)

Unfortunatley, something stupid just occured to me as well. Wouldn't the repulsor have been "Active" holding up the DS2 when it blew up? And if so, wouldn't it have already been exerting an influence on the explosion/debris? Something else to consider.

Edit: Shit, I forgot something else as well. Would it help if we had othe calcalbe examples of Repuslors to draw on? Could you scale up those examples? The most immediate one is the Falcon getting to within 1000 km of the Neutron Star in Rebel Dawn, but there was also the ISD getting close to the Black Hole (wasn't that some "millions of gees?" The DS got torn apart but it didnt actually ge tsucked into the Black hole until it's durability was exceeded.)

In one of the Allston X-wing novels, I bleieve a Interdictor's grav well projectors are utilized as a repulsor field to "push away" a ramming starship (VSD-ISD type vessel.)

[Darth Wong]

The "repulsor cradle" theory implies that the system had a huge foundation on Endor, otherwise it would simply be pushed into the planet's surface. Alternatively, it would need to be absurdly strong and have repulsors pushing down on the planet's surface over a widespread area in order to prevent this.

Of course, there is also the possibility that there was no repulsor cradle at all, and the construction of DS2 at such a low altitude was made possible by the incorporation of anti-grav and propulsion equipment into DS2 as it was built. But this would take away a promising means of explaining away the holocaust.

[Ender]

The "repulsor cradle" theory implies that the system had a huge foundation on Endor, otherwise it would simply be pushed into the planet's surface. Alternatively, it would need to be absurdly strong and have repulsors pushing down on the planet's surface over a widespread area in order to prevent this.

Yes, if one is present, we know that it must be designed to mitigate the stress of the load already, though we don't know exactly how. It would be nice if we did, it might help explain the SPHA-Ts recoil. However it is more likely it is primarily physical, the ROTJ novel has Han talking about the Imperials messing with the geology of the region, though it reads more like he is talking about geothermal power but doesn't actually know what he is talking about.

Of course, there is also the possibility that there was no repulsor cradle at all, and the construction of DS2 at such a low altitude was made possible by the incorporation of anti-grav and propulsion equipment into DS2 as it was built. But this would take away a promising means of explaining away the holocaust.

I'm pretty sure the ITW:OT states one was there - if nothing else it would be required for the early stages of construction prior to the installation of the anti-grav on the station itself.

[Connor MacLeod]

The "repulsor cradle" theory implies that the system had a huge foundation on Endor, otherwise it would simply be pushed into the planet's surface. Alternatively, it would need to be absurdly strong and have repulsors pushing down on the planet's surface over a widespread area in order to prevent this.

The ITW book mentions some level of ecological damage from the repulsor having to support the weight of the DS2, so I imagine it was pretty extensive, yeah.

Maybe they utilize an extensive network of tensor fields the way (IIRC) STarships do? I imagine such a network would be needed to help protect planets against planetary bombardments against shields (Think of the Death Squadron around Hoth. If that shield wasn't strongly anchored, couldn't the Imperials just have battered with a ton of momentum?)

Of course, there is also the possibility that there was no repulsor cradle at all, and the construction of DS2 at such a low altitude was made possible by the incorporation of anti-grav and propulsion equipment into DS2 as it was built. But this would take away a promising means of explaining away the holocaust.

The OT:ITW book mentions that the DS2 was "initially" held above the planet by a repuslor field generated from the same facility that provided the shield to protect it, so we know it was there even if the DS2 didn't need it, it's just a matter of determining whether or not it would be capable of having any effect on deflecting the attack.

The only problem with that, of course, is that we know the shield projector dish was destroyed (if not the generator and/or power source). But the ITW book also mentioned that the same facility was some 70 km in diameter, which is a HUGE area to occupy. The repuslor could have been anywhere around there (though the map doesn't show it, that doesnt neccesarily mean anything either) and the explosion of the dish could not possiblt have encompassed the entire base without killing anyone nearby.

[Ender]

I forgot about the time issue, I admit. That does help things out somewhat, especially since Repuslors can act at much greater distances than the shield can.

The other thing we haven't considered is how much "safety margin" the repulsor would have (by that I mean how much more power/capacity it had beyond what it was doing to sustain the DS2.) It could be quite a bit, or it coudl be very little (say it 10-20% of capcity to 70-80% or more.)

Unfortunatley, something stupid just occured to me as well. Wouldn't the repulsor have been "Active" holding up the DS2 when it blew up? And if so, wouldn't it have already been exerting an influence on the explosion/debris? Something else to consider.

Yes, but that doesn't really matter. The situation is similar to you throwing something here on earth - you may overcome the force being exerted on the object at first, but after that initial force you applied the other force (gravity) will keep working, slowing the object and then pushing it back.

The real question here is does the force applied by the repulsor attenuate WRT distance. Because if it does, the closer the debris gets to Endor, the harder it gets pushed away, making this that much more viable. I suspect this is the case, because more force is needed in closer scenarios. Nothing overtly contradicts this, we already know that repulsors have little to no effect on atmosphere and such (TPM) so that wouldn't be an issue.

Edit: Shit, I forgot something else as well. Would it help if we had othe calcalbe examples of Repuslors to draw on? Could you scale up those examples? The most immediate one is the Falcon getting to within 1000 km of the Neutron Star in Rebel Dawn, but there was also the ISD getting close to the Black Hole (wasn't that some "millions of gees?" The DS got torn apart but it didnt actually ge tsucked into the Black hole until it's durability was exceeded.)

In one of the Allston X-wing novels, I bleieve a Interdictor's grav well projectors are utilized as a repulsor field to "push away" a ramming starship (VSD-ISD type vessel.)

Maybe, but right now I think newton's laws of motion and gravity will suffice.

[Darth Nostril]

Something I've pondered on since I first heard of the Endor Holocaust debate ..... what sort of influence would the gravity well of the gas giant that FME orbits have on this situation?
Would you need to push all the debris away from FME into interplanetary space or just deflect it's course enough that the gas giant would pull it in?

Also given that the shield extended out from the moon to encompass the Death Star 2, and assuming that the rebels managed to get the shields back online why would they just set the shield to spherical around the moon when they have the ability to literally shape it at whim, for example a wedge shape that would cause impacting debris to ricochet off at an angle away from FME?

[Ender]

Something I've pondered on since I first heard of the Endor Holocaust debate ..... what sort of influence would the gravity well of the gas giant that FME orbits have on this situation?
Would you need to push all the debris away from FME into interplanetary space or just deflect it's course enough that the gas giant would pull it in?

None. The gas giant is gone for some unknown reason.

Also given that the shield extended out from the moon to encompass the Death Star 2, and assuming that the rebels managed to get the shields back online why would they just set the shield to spherical around the moon when they have the ability to literally shape it at whim, for example a wedge shape that would cause impacting debris to ricochet off at an angle away from FME?

Shield is gone, only a small portable one remains.

[Darth Nostril]

None. The gas giant is gone for some unknown reason.

How the hell does that work? What is FME orbiting? If the gas giant just evaporated whats to stop FME from just wobbling off into space like Moonbase Alpha?

[Junghalli]

How the hell does that work? What is FME orbiting? If the gas giant just evaporated whats to stop FME from just wobbling off into space like Moonbase Alpha?

Without the gas giant it would presumably go into an independent orbit of its sun. Anyway, here's what Wookiepedia has to say about it.

The planet Endor was never visible in any scenes in Return of the Jedi set on the forest moon, a fact which the novelization explains by asserting that it was destroyed some time earlier, and that the moon now orbits its star in a planetary orbit of its own. It should also be noted that in two of the space battle scenes, a pinkish planet can be seen in the background, in the vicinity of the forest moon. Another shot showing TIE fighters flying towards the Death Star (and camera) with several Star Destroyers in the background shows the pinkish planet. This, coupled with the fact that a moon without a planet should itself be defined as a planet in its own right, has caused some fans to speculate that this pinkish planet is in fact Endor, and the novel is wrong. In addition, a large body, probably the planet Endor, can be seen in the sky during some scenes in the two Ewok telefilms (Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor), though this does not closely resemble the planet seen in Return of the Jedi. Star Wars: Battlefront II shows the planet Endor as a large blue planet, possibly a gas giant, when in Galactic Conquest mode.

My two cents is if you can't say the planet it could also be because it's tidally locked and all the action is happening on Endor's far side.

[Wyrm]

None. The gas giant is gone for some unknown reason.

How the hell does that work? What is FME orbiting? If the gas giant just evaporated whats to stop FME from just wobbling off into space like Moonbase Alpha?

I imagine that either galactic history records that the FME became unbounded from its gas giant, or some sort of scientific survey indicates that the FME was once a satellite of a gas giant.

[Darth Nostril]

Okay I can see Endor being in a far enough out orbit from the gas giant that the peturbations of another celestial body nudged it into a solar orbit, the alternative of an incident violent enough to destroy the gas giant without destroying it's satellites is just not even remotely viable.

[Ender]

The gas giant was present around the time of TPM. It is gone by the time of ROTJ. My personal bet is that the Imperials used it as a source of fuel for the engines of the Death Star. Safe bet is the ion engines use H2 as propellant, gas giant would be rich in it.

[Eframepilot]

But how did the gas giant come back when Kyp Durron visited Endor in KJA's Jedi Academy?

[Connor MacLeod]

But how did the gas giant come back when Kyp Durron visited Endor in KJA's Jedi Academy?

It couldn't have. Kyp either mistook something else for the Gas Giant or hallucinated it. In any case, the ROTJ novel still trumps JAT in this case, so you can take either answer.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yes, but that doesn't really matter. The situation is similar to you throwing something here on earth - you may overcome the force being exerted on the object at first, but after that initial force you applied the other force (gravity) will keep working, slowing the object and then pushing it back.

It doesn't? I'd imagine the level the repulsor operated at to hold up the DS2 vs its "maximum/over-max" capacity would be a rather important factor in deciding whether or not the repuslor could deflect anything (although given the examples I referred, anti-grav technology for SW vessels seems to pretty insane WRT to the effects. If the starship repulsors can hold vessels at fixed distances from objects like neutron stars or black holes, I don't see why a large scale repulsor wouldn't be capable of broadly similar feats.)

Heck, now that I thinka bout it, ,there's Dooku's sailer in AOTC too: That thing could have pulled thousands or tens of thousands of gees handily, and it wasn't using thrusters that I saw. Or Tractor beams being able to restrain ships despite maximum thrust.

The real question here is does the force applied by the repulsor attenuate WRT distance. Because if it does, the closer the debris gets to Endor, the harder it gets pushed away, making this that much more viable. I suspect this is the case, because more force is needed in closer scenarios. Nothing overtly contradicts this, we already know that repulsors have little to no effect on atmosphere and such (TPM) so that wouldn't be an issue.

Wouldn't the fact phenomena like tractor beams and repulsors having a "definite" ranges (or repulsor vehicles having maximum heights) pretty much be evidence that the fields do attenuate?

Maybe, but right now I think newton's laws of motion and gravity will suffice.

Having a case of "massively powerful repuslors" doesn't hurt either. It merely becomes a case of scale, and we already know (thanks to Curtis) many SW technologies scale.

Shield is gone, only a small portable one remains.

As we discussed before, that depends on how and what of the shield generator complex was destrroyed. As I've said before, we know that planetary shields encompassing a planet typically need more than one generator/projector network. Hell, even if we postulate the endor moon WASN'T full enclosed, a shield big enough to encompass the DS2 still might require multiple projectors/generators and relays.

When I checked the OT:ITW book, it mentioned a "shield network" being on Endor, which I take to mean a "planetary shield network", and that much of the equipment (aside form the dish) was underground.

If they merely cut the power to the shield and blew the projector, its possible backups were still there and could have been activated. (though they'd still need a way to screen the planet.

Perhaps even a partial network with at least a functional generator and several projectors could also help deflect debris away (if the repuslor couldn't.)

[Ender]

It doesn't? I'd imagine the level the repulsor operated at to hold up the DS2 vs its "maximum/over-max" capacity would be a rather important factor in deciding whether or not the repuslor could deflect anything (although given the examples I referred, anti-grav technology for SW vessels seems to pretty insane WRT to the effects. If the starship repulsors can hold vessels at fixed distances from objects like neutron stars or black holes, I don't see why a large scale repulsor wouldn't be capable of broadly similar feats.)

I was referring to the fact the DS2 already had force exerted on it by the repulsor didn't matter. Yes, how far they can ramp it up does, but I'd like to see what I can figure out first before exploring that route.

Heck, now that I thinka bout it, ,there's Dooku's sailer in AOTC too: That thing could have pulled thousands or tens of thousands of gees handily, and it wasn't using thrusters that I saw. Or Tractor beams being able to restrain ships despite maximum thrust.

I don't like touching Dooku's ship due to the fact I don't get it. :p As for tractor beams, I'm yet to come up with a good model for them.

Wouldn't the fact phenomena like tractor beams and repulsors having a "definite" ranges (or repulsor vehicles having maximum heights) pretty much be evidence that the fields do attenuate?

Yes, as would the fact it keeps it in a constant position - if it dipped lower the force exerted would be greater, so greater force would be required to push it back.

Having a case of "massively powerful repuslors" doesn't hurt either. It merely becomes a case of scale, and we already know (thanks to Curtis) many SW technologies scale.

I meant for figuring out the limits and end point of the debris.

As we discussed before, that depends on how and what of the shield generator complex was destrroyed. As I've said before, we know that planetary shields encompassing a planet typically need more than one generator/projector network. Hell, even if we postulate the endor moon WASN'T full enclosed, a shield big enough to encompass the DS2 still might require multiple projectors/generators and relays.

When I checked the OT:ITW book, it mentioned a "shield network" being on Endor, which I take to mean a "planetary shield network", and that much of the equipment (aside form the dish) was underground.

If they merely cut the power to the shield and blew the projector, its possible backups were still there and could have been activated. (though they'd still need a way to screen the planet.

Perhaps even a partial network with at least a functional generator and several projectors could also help deflect debris away (if the repuslor couldn't.)

Perhaps, but a shield raises the question of the debris we know did hit. Using the repulsor works there because it deflected the initial stuff, but the FMEs gravity well is eventually going to bring pieces in outside of the area it covers.

[Ender]

Oh christ, FUCK that. I had a HUGE god damned post on this topic and firefox crashed and ate it (Ffox has been crashing a lot lately, I don't know why). I'm not gonna sit around and retype it now.

Simply put, I ran the math and the repulsor at the power it was running at a the time of the battle can deflect the debris. The stuff coming at it head on will stop somewhere between 36 and 70 km above the surface (error due to the fact it goes from ~71 km above the surface to flying away at about 137 km/s because it gets hit with ~15,000 Gs of acceleration in under a second). So it won't hit the planet, but it will enter the atmosphere at about 16 km/s and be hurled back out at about 9 times that velocity. I have no idea what that will do to the planet, but while I can't think it would be good, it definitely is a better fate then being hit by the debris. Since that is the stuff at 90 degrees, the stuff at an angle will certainly be deflected. And if the power was increased in response to sensing the debris incoming, it would be stopped even further out, preventing even that.

Repulsor to block debris, shield to block radiation flash, Endor is saved.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Immediately, anyway. The longer-period is more nebulous.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

*thwack* Bad poster! Bad! Don't violate the laws of thermodynamics! Shields reradiate the energy out into the surroundings in the form of neutrinos.


On topic Connor and I were picking each others brains last night, and a possible solution arouse out of the discussions. The repulsor cradle. Given its proximity to the planet the FME had to use repulsors to keep the station in orbit. This provides for the existance of a facility in the system capable of shifting around the mass of the entire Death Star. Using it to protect against the debris, which would only be ~8% of the total mass, is easily within its limits. Thus the debris could e deflected with ease. This leaves only the question of the radiation flash as a danger, making the situation considerably easier to resolve.

The story of the fate of the Imperial commander at the Repulsor cradle facility who had to make the decision to use it to keep the debris off the planet to save his men, knowing it would help in the rebel victory (and propaganda coup) would be a worthy one for the subject of a fanfic.