Did Bush make the US unpopular?

[American Infidel]

Are you fucking retarded? The point is not whether the coalition that fought WWII was an alliance, but whether alliances are always 100% in agreement on aspects of policy, which they are usually not.

I didn't say that they always agreed on everything.

[Thanas]

Are you fucking retarded? The point is not whether the coalition that fought WWII was an alliance, but whether alliances are always 100% in agreement on aspects of policy, which they are usually not.

I didn't say that they always agreed on everything.

Nice backpedaling, asshole. Suuure you were not of that particular opinion a few pages back.

Now, answer the fucking point: Why do you assume the US and Europe are not allied?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I didn't say that they always agreed on everything.

And yet you said they have "common policies", when they did not.

[Thanas]

I didn't say that they always agreed on everything.

And yet you said they have "common policies", when they did not.

[ignoramus]Obviously I meant *insert bullshit here* instead of what I said[/ignoramus].

Who's willing to bet that will be his next post if the little chickenshit has the guts to get back to this topic?

[SirNitram]

Now watch as the idiot evades the comment about the dictionary, because he has no rebuttal.

a person, group, or nation that is associated with another or others for some common cause or purpose

It was ignored because it did not merit response.

Your active distortions in this thread show quite clearly you do not view this as a proper ally. Your evasions amount to nothing; the record speaks more loudly than your claims of innocence and justification.

Like it or not(And you clearly don't; typical whining 'America dominant, all others subservient fruitcake), European nations still share alot of common policies and causes with America. However, they are not 100% sync'd.

But just like the 'America is always disliked', you black-white fallacy any disagreement into 'allies', demeaning and insulting. Like I said. Typical. You're a dime a dozen, boy.

[Steve]

Are you fucking retarded? The point is not whether the coalition that fought WWII was an alliance, but whether alliances are always 100% in agreement on aspects of policy, which they are usually not.

I didn't say that they always agreed on everything.

"Allies have shared national interests, policies, and joint cooperation. Countries which do not share our national interests, policies, or cooperate are not allies. Since the Europeans and our global issues are a mixed bag, I use quotations."

"The WWII Allies had a common goal and pursued common actions and policies towards that goal. Defeating the axis powers.
In short, you are a fucking moron."

"I guess you've never heard of the joint allied invasions of Italy, Normandy, and the Netherlands."

We can all see your semantical backpedaling for what it is. Your argument was rather clear, both in origins and in how you responded to rebuttal (Sarcastically referring to WWII military operations when someone pointed out that NATO is no different from the wartime alliance which also had its arguments and disagreements, as if the comparison nullified the WWII Allies from the "Allies" criteria).

In short, you're showing yourself not just as an idiot but as a dishonest idiot, trying to weasel your way out of your own arguments without actually retracting them and hoping we're too stupid to notice.

[Kanastrous]

Look, Infidel, there's an old saw: nations have no permanent allies, only permanent interests.

During WWII it served the necessary interests of Britain, the USSR and the USA to make common cause against Germany. And while they were busy with that, all the time the Russians were spying deep inside the US, and American businessmen were doing deals for war materiel with the Nazis and the British were relying upon millions of Russian deaths to bleed Germany and relieve pressure upon her, from the east. Before 1941, Russia and Germany were allies, in the invasion and division of Poland and other territories.

Before that, Britain and Russia spent decades circling each other in a series of incidents and near-wars and political intrigue and puppet-mastery in Central Asia; in Whitehall you'd hear the Savage Cossack described in about the same way that the Bloodthirsty Hun would be slammed, come WWI.

Not to mention the Crimean War, where the lineup was Britain and France against Russia.

It's mostly about shifting alliances driven by fairly consistent national interests. And in so many ways our consistent national interests are still tied to Western Europe.

So yeah, most of the Europeans, in general, are our allies - even the French, okay? Because for all the chauvinistic silly slap-fighting irritation they can be - especially when they're right - their people and our people work together in important security-like ways, and there has always been an undercurrent of good will that goes all the way back to 1777.

I guess there's a black-and-white appeal to defining allies as people whose cause is one with our own - or as followers who shut up and perform as ordered. But that model is just in thorough disagreeance with just about any comprehensive history you'd care to explore, on the topic.

[Darth Wong]

He's too stupid to realize what it says about yourself when you define "ally" as "yes-man".

You're too stupid to read and understand my post.

Show me one thing about your definition of "ally" which is inconsistent with the term "yes-man".

The fact is that if you owned a dictionary, you would know that every member of NATO is an ally by definition.

ally(noun)

1 : a sovereign or state associated with another by treaty or league
2 : a plant or animal linked to another by genetic or taxonomic proximity
3 : one that is associated with another as a helper : auxiliary

You lose, bitch. Nothing about that definition requires or even implies that they have the same policies.

[American Infidel]

You lose, bitch. Nothing about that definition requires or even implies that they have the same policies.

You are right. I do.

[LaCroix]

The austrian image of the US after Clinton was good.
We chuckled over the US being so stupid to go after a good president because of his private sex live, but well, we have heard a lot such things in the news about british parliament sex scandals, too, so we just believed it to be funny.

US tourists were always noisy bastards and disrespectful as hell, but we coped with that, the german tourists were no better, and we believed only those bus-travelling tourist were the bad type.

Then came Bush.

A president who was only installed after a court forbade a recount of votes, which showed him to actually have lost. We found it funny that someone could cheat himself into presidency with help from his father and family.

Public image sunk, we believed you to be a bit dim-witted to let yourself be run over. But elections are elections, and who cares, it's not that he could have done something too wrong in his 4 years. We were wrong.

Shortly after, he was seen as a moron around the world, incompetent and uneducated. Then came 9/11, and we were on your side, firmly.

Everybody was on your side about invading afghanistan, most countries offered assistance. We found the administrational errors after the attack (letting the bin ladens out of country without questioning, the lack of proper investigation, etc) horrible, but we were with you against the Al-Kaida in afghanistan.

Then Bush started about saddam and iraq. How they have contact with Al-Kaida, how they stockpile WMDs. Our Intelligence agencies found no proof, so we asked for yours. We got some of your claims, and disproved everything. Still, Bush was bullying the world into invading Iraq. Everyone said it's wrong, and we got attacked for it, France got it worst.

We were ridiculed, insulted and ignored. An then asked for assistance in the invasion. We told you off and were even more insulted.

US did invade, without UN mandate, thus making an illegal invasion.
And nothing was found. You still said that there is something hidden. Later still nothing, meanwhile iraq was in civil war, afghanistan was getting worse again, because you had to split your attention. Still, no apology(not even to france), just moving goalposts "we did it to free the people".

You declared the war over, while still everyone could see that it had just begun. The civil insurgency was claimed to be foreign terrorists.

Later, bullying the world into letting the US companies only rebuild iraq, thus milking the corpse. Right now, everybody knew that iraq was only invaded for oil and money, and because saddam "wanted to kill my dad".
Oh, and jesus told Bush to do so.

Meanwhile, going crazy about civil rights of people in- an outside of the us. Detaining people just because you want to. Torturing them, saying it was for the greater good. Totally ignoring human rights.

Right now, the world is more afraid of the US than of Al-Kaida.

Bush did not only make the US unpopular, he made it feared and mistrusted.

[Dahak]

Americans were not outright loathed before Bush's regime, but I think many Germans had that smug feeling of cultural and moral superiority over those "jumped-up" Americans. Making fun of the perceived non-existence of culture, like eating, or their behaviour abroad was (and is) quite common.
Bush's regime, the invasion of Iraq, the whole clusterfuck afterwards, and their stance on world climate and environmental policies in the last eight years have turned this into often disgust, distrust and maybe outright hatred. It was big enough that our former chancellor managed to use this as a bandwagon back into office...

[Shroom Man 777]

Doesn't help that El Shrubya showed such blatant disrespect to the leader of your country.

Yeah, it would be nice to see Vladimir Putin do some judo on Bush's ass, beating him with stick and all.

I mean, when I was younger I loved America and I stayed up late to cheer as Operation Iraqi Freedom began - Gulf War 2 and all that. I bought into the hype.

But afterwards, it all unraveled and I ended up being rather disappointed at the "world's only superpower". Felt betrayed, even.

Yeah, fuck America.

[Dooey Jo]

Basically what LaCroix said. Bush started out by fucking over Al Gore (who basically is God and would have fixed all problems in the world. At least in comparison) and cheating himself into office, then fucking everything up in Afghanistan, then starting an illegal, pointless and unsuccessful war on Iraq, all the while pissing on everyone.

But then you had to go and vote him back into office! That little move did not help your image. I remember some politician saying after the election that "we had underestimated George Bush" because he managed to win again, despite being a moron, liar, and a compete failure that stole his first election. What he really meant was that we had clearly overestimated the average American.

[salm]

I think Spyder nailed it. It used to be mostly the intellectuals who didn't like the USA. Now after Bush everybody and his dog views them as war mongering, abducting, torturing assholes.

Most people have these feelings about the US government, though, not the US citizens.

[Ubiquitous]

Most people have these feelings about the US government, though, not the US citizens.

Are you sure about that? In Britain it is very fashionable to mock Americans as being stupid and fat. This type of racism of course would be way out of line if directed at any other nation save France in this country. It is socially acceptable to have these views in this country, and again this has been the case IMO since before Bush.

Spyder raises an excellent point re: historical hatred of America by intellectuals. Even the lecturers who taught American History were anti-American in my faculty during my University days.

I don't see what Obama can do to right this. It will take many years for Americas reputation to be repaired. Indeed, until China and India knock the US from the top spot, or if there is an other major terrorist attack even worse than 11/9, I doubt America will ever be popular in the eyes of the masses due to it's number one status.

[Rye]

I doubt there is a language in use on Earth that has not been used to mock or complain about Bush. Just look at the hope in Europe that America won't fall back into more republican fuckwittery by crowding to listen to Obama, a man they can't even vote for.

America and americans will always be the butt of a few jokes (as will everyone else), but it's clear that Bush has disgusted just about everyone and Obama will please large swathes of the non-American world.

[Thanas]

I doubt America will ever be popular in the eyes of the masses due to it's number one status.

As if the number one status was the prime reason. Yeah, right.

[salm]

Most people have these feelings about the US government, though, not the US citizens.

Are you sure about that? In Britain it is very fashionable to mock Americans as being stupid and fat. This type of racism of course would be way out of line if directed at any other nation save France in this country. It is socially acceptable to have these views in this country, and again this has been the case IMO since before Bush.

Pretty sure, yes. Most people will mock Amerians with the stereotypes, that's true. But they will do the same with people from other countries as well, usually in good humor. Very view people will actually accuse an American of torture when they meet them.

[Darth Wong]

Are you sure about that? In Britain it is very fashionable to mock Americans as being stupid and fat. This type of racism of course would be way out of line if directed at any other nation save France in this country. It is socially acceptable to have these views in this country, and again this has been the case IMO since before Bush.

Just how old are you? How politically aware were you in, say, 1990?

Spyder raises an excellent point re: historical hatred of America by intellectuals. Even the lecturers who taught American History were anti-American in my faculty during my University days.

Define "hatred", as opposed to "factually accurate criticism". Most teachers of history and/or international affairs rightly criticize America, and have for decades. The line was "America always picks the wrong horse": a statement whose accuracy is remarkably consistent. However, that is not "hatred" or "anti-Americanism"; that is simply accurate reporting. It is not that intellectuals are biased against America, as you so moronically attempt to paint it: it is that intellectuals know too much to believe America's false self-image of itself.

There was a time when people envied America for its #1 status, but during those years, people had a much more positive view of America, not a more negative one. Or don't you notice that as America's star falls, negative opinion about America increases rather than decreasing? This correlation you've invented between American power and so-called "anti-American" thinking is bullshit.

I don't see what Obama can do to right this. It will take many years for Americas reputation to be repaired. Indeed, until China and India knock the US from the top spot, or if there is an other major terrorist attack even worse than 11/9, I doubt America will ever be popular in the eyes of the masses due to it's number one status.

See above.

[M]

Most people have these feelings about the US government, though, not the US citizens.

Are you sure about that?

Well, he does have every reason to be sure considering that, for instance, in Britain 70% have a favourable view of Americans (with favourable view of the US itself at a mere 51%). I already quoted the corresponding numbers for Germany on the first page of this thread, and they paint the same picture. Also...

Indeed, until China and India knock the US from the top spot, or if there is an other major terrorist attack even worse than 11/9, I doubt America will ever be popular in the eyes of the masses due to it's number one status.

...despite its number one status, the US was wildly popular in most Western countries even before 9/11 (again, as per the polling data). Of the twelve European countries with polling data from 1999/2000, the only country where less then at least half the population had a favourable view of the US was Russia (37%). On the other side of the spectrum, eight countries had a majority of about three-fourths or more with favourable views of the US.

You're still ignoring facts in favour of your preconceptions.

[Surlethe]

I don't see what Obama can do to right this. It will take many years for Americas reputation to be repaired.

Electing Obama would, I think, be a huge step in the right direction. We won't entirely repair our reputation, but we will send a message that we want to change the way we've been running things.

[Darth Wong]

The real problem is the need to reverse the growth of the entire right-wing movement, which is based on the same kind of politics of exclusion that tend to lead to fascism to other countries: something people in other parts of the world seem to recognize much more keenly than Americans do. Americans are in love with their own sense of exceptionalism, whereby the things that have happened in other countries can't possibly happen in America. That's why they had no problem with Bush's vast expansion of executive power or the open contempt shown by his officials toward the law (to the point that they simply ignore subpoenas and/or refuse to answer direct questions at congressional hearings and everyone just thinks it's funny). They honestly think that because this is America, it's absurd to think that their freedoms could ever be taken away. It's AMERICA!!! Land of freedom! It's always going to be free because it says so in the advertising brochure!

The best criticism of the idea that Bush can be blamed for declining international opinion is the fact that this decline in international opinion is based not just on Bush, but on the words and deeds of all his supporters (which people outside America are far more aware of than Bush supporters seem to realize). Of course, no Bush apologist would make that argument, because it means that the apologist himself is actually responsible, along with his ilk. Far better to say some stupid shit like "Europeans are jealous of our freedom" or "Europeans are just crazy socialist nutcases" or "It's those damned anti-American intellectual ivory-tower elites" or something idiotic like that.

[Steve]

I have of late begun to contemplate how much of the American exceptionalism ideology is rooted in the Puritan mentality, which of course means Calvinism and the concept of being particularly singled out for divine guidance and protection.

[Darth Wong]

I have of late begun to contemplate how much of the American exceptionalism ideology is rooted in the Puritan mentality, which of course means Calvinism and the concept of being particularly singled out for divine guidance and protection.

I think you're giving them too much credit. These people have never sat down and seriously examined their own beliefs. They were just taught to recite certain phrases over and over as children, until they became dogma.

If you repeat a slogan often enough, it becomes fact in your mind. This is how Islamic fundamentalist schools work. It works just as well for "America is the land of the free" as it does for "Allah is Great".

[Lord Revan]

Here as far as I know (in my age group at least) USA wasn't viewed too badly until the fuck up at Iraq.

sure there was criticism and such of some "wierd" (read:braindead) US policies but it wasn't viewed as the global bully as it is now.