Stargate Atlantis 5x04 The Daedalous Variations

[PREDATOR490]

The ship looked like a Star Destroyer in basic principle with obvious differences thrown in to make sure it dosent get instantly done for copyright etc.
The green turbolaser-like weapons and waves worth of expendable fighters only help to make the whole combination look like someone took the idea from Star Wars. The 'crew' themselves looked disturbingly like Borg drones and I have my reservations about where that is going to go.

The special effects they have been using in Atlantis certainly seem to have improved considerably and they do appear to be putting some effort into more spaceship orientated situations however I am not going to invest too much opinion due to how good this episode was. It is still early and that often ends up being the point where they use more shiny effects to attract people to watch.
Additionally, this new enemy is literally the selling point of this entire season so they had to invest more time into it or risk facing the wrath of dissappointed fans. That said, the last season had a few highpoints surrounded by weak episodes so I sincerely hope this season dosent follow the same trend by having the next 1-3 episodes be melo-dramatic drivel.

[Zac Naloen]

The bar has been set very early on this season.

Traditionally for Atlantis i've felt the second half of the series has had the stronger episodes.


I've been getting vibes from various interviews that this could be Atlantis last season in order to make way for Universe, I hope it's not the case as I still rather enjoy this show but a strong final season is always welcome.

[[R_H]]

Oh yeah, I'd like to see more M4's in Stargate. I dunno I think they should have more of those. The 5.56 is a more powerfull round and the M4 package is not much more bulky than the P90. Seems to me they use the P90 mainly because it's funky looking. I prefer the worn and used conventional M4s.

I also like Sheppards custom 1911.

I'm surprised they haven't started switching/switched over to energy weapons yet. Something like Ronins gun, but in a carbine formfactor.

[His Divine Shadow]

Another pro for the goa'uld era, atleast those weapons (i.e. the staffs) where ungainly and horrible things with slow rate of fire and less accuracy than my shotgun shooting slugs. But by now they have got a fuckin ancient city, expanded tech-base, industrial base, all kinds of energy guns lying around.

No real reason they should not be able to to make earth made energy guns when they can make starships.

[PREDATOR490]

Actually, they do appear to be able to make Energy guns because we saw Carter use one at a display. Incidentally, Continum has Vala trying to bring a massive energy gun to Baal's extraction ceremony so there is no reason they dont have energy weapons except for writer's fiat.

Personnally, I would like to see them come out with one of those Intarr training weapons they used with lethal settings. They work pretty much the same as standard firearms and can stun but I doubt that will happen.
I imagine they dont want to splurge out on the effects of more energy weapons so there is little chance of it happening.

[CaptJodan]

I still can't fathom why they haven't at least tried using Zats as sidearms in Atlantis. Let me think...9mm pistol (no reason they couldn't still carry them, they did both in SG-1) that runs out of bullets and may not have the stopping power, or a Zat, which has two (3 really, but I hear they pretty much dropped writing in the "vaporize" option) modes of use and have been fairly reliable weapons. Are they so concerned about the two shows being separate entities (and failing at that BTW) that they don't want to take that logical step? Was there something in the contract that didn't allow Zat props. What?

As far as the use of energy weapons, I think carrying around a Naquada reactor on top of your energy weapon seems a little impractical, assuming the model they were showing off was the current state of things. Personally, I don't mind that Earth still uses good ol fashioned lead, though I wouldn't mind some higher caliber weapon types. The P-90 was likely used because of it's "oh look how futuristic it seems" factor, but its really not practical for the types of enemies they're....sort of....under attack by...in the beginning.*

*-By this, I mean the seemingly tough hide of new aliens that they meet, only to find a 9mm perfectly capable in the next episode. The first Goa'uld to come through the gate were near invulnerable to the M-16, but then were easy kills by the end of the show (explained by improved rounds). The Wraith were difficult kills at first, but now fall just as easily (no explanation). Chances are, I expect this alien race will go the same way that the rest of them did. What required an entire clip of the P-90, some of the M9, and Ronon's high powered pistol will be reduced to a couple hits from the P-90 later.

[Lancer]

Naquidah-tipped rounds. It's what I would do.

[Timotheus]

I still can't fathom why they haven't at least tried using Zats as sidearms in Atlantis. Let me think...9mm pistol (no reason they couldn't still carry them, they did both in SG-1) that runs out of bullets and may not have the stopping power, or a Zat, which has two (3 really, but I hear they pretty much dropped writing in the "vaporize" option) modes of use and have been fairly reliable weapons. Are they so concerned about the two shows being separate entities (and failing at that BTW) that they don't want to take that logical step? Was there something in the contract that didn't allow Zat props. What?

As far as the use of energy weapons, I think carrying around a Naquada reactor on top of your energy weapon seems a little impractical, assuming the model they were showing off was the current state of things. Personally, I don't mind that Earth still uses good ol fashioned lead, though I wouldn't mind some higher caliber weapon types. The P-90 was likely used because of it's "oh look how futuristic it seems" factor, but its really not practical for the types of enemies they're....sort of....under attack by...in the beginning.*

*-By this, I mean the seemingly tough hide of new aliens that they meet, only to find a 9mm perfectly capable in the next episode. The first Goa'uld to come through the gate were near invulnerable to the M-16, but then were easy kills by the end of the show (explained by improved rounds). The Wraith were difficult kills at first, but now fall just as easily (no explanation). Chances are, I expect this alien race will go the same way that the rest of them did. What required an entire clip of the P-90, some of the M9, and Ronon's high powered pistol will be reduced to a couple hits from the P-90 later.

I have also always hated the lack of Zats. Especially on the episodes where you see them pulling out taser guns to capture Wraith.

As for the P-90. The weapon itself would be an cellent choice. It is a bullpup so it is compact for the length of barrel. It carries a 50 round magazine. Finally the round it used has been designed to be armor piercing which would make it good for taking on armor plated Jaffa.

It would have made sense at some point for the SGC to design a better version of the Staff weapon. Take out the power supply and mount it into a much more ergonomic design since as Jack pointed out the accuracy of a Staff Weapon really sucks.

[Themightytom]

I don't know if I'm pulling this out of my ass, buit i thought I heard something abotu jaffa armor being designed to protect against jaffa energy blasts. If the galactic standard is to defend against energy absed weapons, then the guy toting a kinetic weapon would ahve an advantage no?

The Atlantis team isn't actually military is it? maybe the USAF is restricting the zats and heavier weapons so that a Canadian spy doesn't get his hands on one by accident.

it has been discussed as a strength of the episode that Ronan and Tey'la contributed to the mission. HOW FRICKING CONVENIENT IS IT THAT THEY WERE "JUST" TRAINED ON OPERATING THE DAEDALOUS?

Teyla must be a rediculously quick study, I'm not even sure why shepherd knows how to run anything other than navigation sicne he is a fighter pilot/ military commander (When Carter's not around)/special opts team leader.

I'm not sad to see carter go, she was "too good". When Shepherd went in to rescue Tey'la i was scratching my head as to why she didn't go with them given her experience in boarding enemy vessels etc. it would be like that in every mission with her around, why send anyone BUT Carter.

The new race would be great if they can go toe to toe with Atlantis beause of one specific advantage. We know it isn't shields, the beam weapon cut right through them, it isn't fighters, because they appear to suc @ss in a dog fight. it PROBABLY isn't long range teleporters... that would be awesome if they could teleport troops through shields, at a greater distance than the Asgard weapon can fire,) because presumably, the only way enemies got onboard was by crashing into the ship.
it IS possible to write it taht the fighter jsut crashed, and the enemies DID beam troops on board, they were jsut dinking around in the back o the ship unfamiliar with the lay out.

Numbers won't help, the wraith have them. Maybe they ahe a cylon hack that can get through ancient and Asgard computers. Thats why Atlantis' shield was failing, and why they weren't fighting back. The Daedalous surprised them and knocked out their computer along with their weapons. Whatever it ends up being i hope the new race is balanced and interesting. but given taht they are STILL physically stronger than Rinan, and take many bullets, i doubt it. The most interesting races in the Stargate universe so far are
- The spindly asgard
-the midget Nox
-The snake like Goa'uld and Tok'Ra
-The somewhat anemic looking Aschen
-and maybe the furlings, b/c they SOUND weak.

its intriguing to face an opponent that has something other than brawns with which it can win.

[Zac Naloen]

I was under the impression that they switched to P-90's because, quite simply, the air force told them to.

[Chris OFarrell]

I have to say, despite everything, I liked this episode, I actually found it enjoyable to watch.

I utterly reject the idea that the new race is some kind of 'Star Wars' ripoff, the thought never even crossed my mind when I saw it, it just doesn't track in the slightest. Hell, my first thought seeing the ship was that it might have been something from the race that built that odd ship we saw in 'Unnatural Selection' and 'Enemies' that the Replicators took over. NOTHING about it screamed SW to me.

I also found the 'OMG we have no power, except for this odd infinite ZPM wanabe power supply BUT we can't divert the power anywhere useful like shields or weapons' to be annoying. At first I thought they might have -sensibly- pointed out that this drive core and its power supply were utterly isolated from the ships systems, there was literally not a physical conduit and so it could only dump its energy into the drive system.

Then they screwed that up by having McKay dump the last dregs of the ships power into the system. Oh well, I can pretend its one way at least

The manually targeted railguns were weird, though I thinki t was as much that Ronan just didn't have a fucking clue, HE was trying to spray them manually, it looked like Sheppard tried to tell him how to use the system to designate and lock targets, but Ronan just sprayed and prayed...badly. And it was good to see that he WAS utterly hopeless at trying to shoot stuff with said guns.

The F-302 - Alien dogfight? Pure fighter porn, it was just awesome!

The alien zombies were just odd, not bad, but odd. I withhold judgment on them for now. Would have been nice to see Sheppard and Ronan fall back, pull out a USAS-12 or two from the armory and only THEN be able to fight back at them, but thats just the kid in me.

And yes, there was a lot of cool stuff they COULD have done in the alternate universes. Would have been funny to see them emerge into the middle of a still roaring Wraith/Ancient war, or perhaps even a Goa'uld planet, with a Jaffa telling them they are intruding on the domain of Lord Anubis...

But hell, I can live with it.

I'd give it 3.5/5, a solid episode.

[Revy]

Eh they HAVE used Zats in Atlantis before, remember? You might not, because the episode was generally seen to be bad enough to blot out of memory (though I still enjoyed it myself). It was the one with Teal'c in it? When the Wraith invade the SGC? They end up using Zat guns in that. And they work just fine. No clue as to why they didn't continue to use them.

As to P90's, well they're actually quite good. They hold 50 rounds as opposed to the 15-30 round clips of an M4, use 5.7mm teflon coated bullets, which is a larger calibre than the M4's 5.56mm rounds. They are ambidextrous, are easier to fire from prone position (M4's or other rifle weapon tends to have the bottom clip get in the way) have most of their bulk and the barrel behind the sights, are much lighter than other similar weapons ("Feel the weight of that sucker!" - O'Neill). Oh, and the top loading magazine is translucent so you can glance right at it without even lowering the weapon and see how much ammo you have left.

It's not like they all use them as well - remember SG3? They were a marine unit using M4's. And a lot of other teams stuck to MP5's. It tends to only be the lead teams (ie SG1 and Sheppards team) that use P90's as they are a good general purpose all-rounder kind of gun, to suit the lead teams going into the unkown, but Stargate combat and marine orientated teams who know they're going into a fight DO carry M4's, M16's and MG's. And what about Carters funky gun? The one she carried with the double drum and foregrip. That was pretty neat, anyone know what the hell it was?

it has been discussed as a strength of the episode that Ronan and Tey'la contributed to the mission. HOW FRICKING CONVENIENT IS IT THAT THEY WERE "JUST" TRAINED ON OPERATING THE DAEDALOUS?

Eh ... wtf? Ronan wasn't 'trained' to operate the Daed, he was next to useless and Sheppard had to call out instructions on the fly to him, and even then he admitted that he was hopeless at using the controls. And Teyla DID fly a Wraith hiveship. Since she does bugger all these days except occasionally shooting someone when Ronan and Sheppard are knee deep in bad guys, and even Ronan once said he should learn some science so he might be useful in these kinds of situations, it's not a huge stretch to see Teyla asking someone to give her some quick lessons on what buttons do what on their premiere life-shaving space ship. Hell, if McKay can learn to use a P90 (which takes proper training to use safely and accurately, which granted he doesnt always display, but wouldnt even be allowed to carry one if they didn't at least *give* him the training first) then I should damn well expect our latent 'hanger-on' team member to learn something useful like that.

Teyla must be a rediculously quick study, I'm not even sure why shepherd knows how to run anything other than navigation sicne he is a fighter pilot/ military commander (When Carter's not around)/special opts team leader.

How so? She didn't help out that much. She knew what some of the buttons were for and offered advice on repairing stuff to McKay, but other than that it wasn't like she was driving the ship and making it do combat manouevers or shit like that. And it didn't exactly take Daniel long in SG1 to learn how to operate a Goa'uld mothership, remember? He got a few basic lessons from Selmac on how to control their stolen Cronus Ha'Tak and the next thing we know he's operating the sensors, communications and even the engines to fly them away from a soon-to-explode Apophis ship. And that was all learned in a short space of time under stressful conditions. Teyla, who didn't demonstrate even that much operating knowledge, learned hers on the quiet in her spare time. It's not a stretch.

I should point out that even if this alien threat turns out to be the new big bad, according to the episode summary's released on gateworld, the Wraith and Michael are still set to be the primary antagonists for this season. And the Replicators are set to return as well remember. If these new guys are going to show up, things are going to start getting crowded.

[His Divine Shadow]

As to P90's, well they're actually quite good. They hold 50 rounds as opposed to the 15-30 round clips of an M4, use 5.7mm teflon coated bullets, which is a larger calibre than the M4's 5.56mm rounds. They are ambidextrous, are easier to fire from prone position (M4's or other rifle weapon tends to have the bottom clip get in the way) have most of their bulk and the barrel behind the sights, are much lighter than other similar weapons ("Feel the weight of that sucker!" - O'Neill). Oh, and the top loading magazine is translucent so you can glance right at it without even lowering the weapon and see how much ammo you have left.

Check out the case differences, the 5.7 is an SMG round, the 5.56 is an intermediate rifle round. The 5.7 has nowhere near the power of the 5.56, it has a slightly bigger caliber but that tells us nothing of how powerfullt he cartridge is, length also matters. Also teflon coating offers no penetrative advantages, that was just some media scare about "cop killer bullets" from the early 90's that had about as much truth as anything else such people say. The only effect and intent of teflon coating is to reduce barrel wear.

30 rounders make it a bit harder to fire prone but hardly undoable or even remotely so. Never had a problem firing from a prone position using 30 round mags personally. Albeit that was an AK and I won't be owning an M4 for a few months yet but none of the M4 wielding guys I know have problems. Also 100rd beta-mags for the "lulz" (ughI feel dirty). Ofcourse proper prone firing is pretty much never seen in SG, nor in most modern combat.

The Weight of M4 is 6.9lbs with a full 30rd mag. Weight of P90 is 6.6lbs with a full mag. I don't really think the transparent mags matter one way or the other but such mags exist for M4's too, see Magpul PMAGs

I think the P90 is designed more for civilian policing role, the M4 fires a rifle round and given the things SG teams usually face I think the M4 is a more logical choice, especially if we are gonna see these new enemies again that require so many hits to be taken down.

[Timotheus]

As to P90's, well they're actually quite good. They hold 50 rounds as opposed to the 15-30 round clips of an M4, use 5.7mm teflon coated bullets, which is a larger calibre than the M4's 5.56mm rounds. They are ambidextrous, are easier to fire from prone position (M4's or other rifle weapon tends to have the bottom clip get in the way) have most of their bulk and the barrel behind the sights, are much lighter than other similar weapons ("Feel the weight of that sucker!" - O'Neill). Oh, and the top loading magazine is translucent so you can glance right at it without even lowering the weapon and see how much ammo you have left.

Check out the case differences, the 5.7 is an SMG round, the 5.56 is an intermediate rifle round. The 5.7 has nowhere near the power of the 5.56, it has a slightly bigger caliber but that tells us nothing of how powerfullt he cartridge is, length also matters. Also teflon coating offers no penetrative advantages, that was just some media scare about "cop killer bullets" from the early 90's that had about as much truth as anything else such people say. The only effect and intent of teflon coating is to reduce barrel wear.

30 rounders make it a bit harder to fire prone but hardly undoable or even remotely so. Never had a problem firing from a prone position using 30 round mags personally. Albeit that was an AK and I won't be owning an M4 for a few months yet but none of the M4 wielding guys I know have problems. Also 100rd beta-mags for the "lulz" (ughI feel dirty). Ofcourse proper prone firing is pretty much never seen in SG, nor in most modern combat.

The Weight of M4 is 6.9lbs with a full 30rd mag. Weight of P90 is 6.6lbs with a full mag. I don't really think the transparent mags matter one way or the other but such mags exist for M4's too, see Magpul PMAGs

I think the P90 is designed more for civilian policing role, the M4 fires a rifle round and given the things SG teams usually face I think the M4 is a more logical choice, especially if we are gonna see these new enemies again that require so many hits to be taken down.

You think wrong. The P-90 was designed as a replacement for the MP-5 as an effective secondary weapon for vehicle crews to carry. It was also intended as a weapon to fire the new 5.7mm round which was intended to have superior effect against ligh body armor.

[Themightytom]

Eh ... wtf? Ronan wasn't 'trained' to operate the Daed, he was next to useless and Sheppard had to call out instructions on the fly to him, and even then he admitted that he was hopeless at using the controls. And Teyla DID fly a Wraith hiveship. Since she does bugger all these days except occasionally shooting someone when Ronan and Sheppard are knee deep in bad guys, and even Ronan once said he should learn some science so he might be useful in these kinds of situations, it's not a huge stretch to see Teyla asking someone to give her some quick lessons

Wow almost like she said in the episode "The last time the daedalous was in orbit Ronan and I were givin the opportunitty to recieve some preliminary training." So your right, she DID ask someone, but Ronan was there too. My problem is how could a "Preliminary training" have included the use of multiple stations and functions across the ship? To the point where she's telling RODNEY how to fix the ship???

She flew the Wraith ship using her special Wraith mind powers, how is that the same as understanding the configuration and layout of an advanced battleship that is labelled and operated in a language that is not your native one? Granted Tey'la appears to be pretty good at speaking English (Stereotype newbie mannerisms aside) but now she can read technical readouts?

I'd be generous if I estimated that she got a couple days to train on Daedalous operations, it takes longer than that to figure out a Mac.

Hell, if McKay can learn to use a P90 (which takes proper training to use safely and accurately, which granted he doesnt always display, but wouldnt even be allowed to carry one if they didn't at least *give* him the training first) then I should damn well expect our latent 'hanger-on' team member to learn something useful like that.

So you are comparing a P90 to a spaceship?

How so? She didn't help out that much. She knew what some of the buttons were for and offered advice on repairing stuff to McKay, but other than that it wasn't like she was driving the ship and making it do combat manouevers or shit like that.

After Rodney nearly electrocuted himself she gave a pretty detailed explanation of what he did wrong. that suggests she has a sophisticated enough understanding of the computer systems to know how they worked, how power distribution works etc.

And it didn't exactly take Daniel long in SG1 to learn how to operate a Goa'uld mothership, remember? He got a few basic lessons from Selmac on how to control their stolen Cronus Ha'Tak and the next thing we know he's operating the sensors, communications and even the engines to fly them away from a soon-to-explode Apophis ship. And that was all learned in a short space of time under stressful conditions.

The playschool(tm) spaceships??? Their technology is as dumbed down as it can get, have you seen their navigation system? its two trackball mouses. Goa'uld ships were designed tor a low tech people to operate without giving them any real understanding of how it worked. Jack alluded to this when he compared the operation of the P90 to a staff weapon.

Teyla, who didn't demonstrate even that much operating knowledge, learned hers on the quiet in her spare time. It's not a stretch.

it wouldn't have to be since she told us when she did it, but she said it was recent, how much pracctical experience did she have to apply her orientation?

I should point out that even if this alien threat turns out to be the new big bad, according to the episode summary's released on gateworld, the Wraith and Michael are still set to be the primary antagonists for this season. And the Replicators are set to return as well remember. If these new guys are going to show up, things are going to start getting crowded.

Atlantis needs a little diversity, they are oversimplifying the arc story lines. Some of the better arcs in SG-1 involved Goa'uld, ancients asgard, replicators and russians. it wasn't just "Wraith! Everywhere! Wraith!!!

[His Divine Shadow]

You think wrong. The P-90 was designed as a replacement for the MP-5 as an effective secondary weapon for vehicle crews to carry. It was also intended as a weapon to fire the new 5.7mm round which was intended to have superior effect against ligh body armor.

True enough, in retrospect it's a bit silly to assume such a weapon to be designed foremost for civilian applications, though it would still serve said objectives well. The P90 seems like a capable replacement foro the MP5 which enjoyed widespread use in the role I theorised for it, although AR-15s and M4s have taken over as the main weapons for SWAT now as well.

[Timotheus]

You think wrong. The P-90 was designed as a replacement for the MP-5 as an effective secondary weapon for vehicle crews to carry. It was also intended as a weapon to fire the new 5.7mm round which was intended to have superior effect against ligh body armor.

True enough, in retrospect it's a bit silly to assume such a weapon to be designed foremost for civilian applications, though it would still serve said objectives well. The P90 seems like a capable replacement foro the MP5 which enjoyed widespread use in the role I theorised for it, although AR-15s and M4s have taken over as the main weapons for SWAT now as well.

Swat teams though are going to prefer a weapon without too much penetration since it would increase the danger to civilians. At least I would expect them to operate under that logic. Not that the rifle would matter that much. If you are worried about penetration of a round you can just adjust the round itself.

[Lancer]

We see some of the SG teams (most notably the Marine teams) and base defense staff armed with M16s, so we know that they do have those available.

[Stargate Nerd]

One problem I did have with the episode was the railgun they showed when the alien fighters were attacking. Are railguns in gatling gun design even possible? Shouldn't they look like the ones we saw in the Siege Pt2 ?

[NecronLord]

I'd be generous if I estimated that she got a couple days to train on Daedalous operations, it takes longer than that to figure out a Mac.

Fortunately, it takes no time at all to learn how to fly a goa'uld ship (Enemies, couple of other episodes) and that's what the 303, at least, had its computer systems seemingly based upon, albeit with a human OS slapped on over the top.

Honestly, Teyla being able to decipher modern Tau'ri systems is no more laughable than modern Tau'ri being able to decipher goa'uld ones.

[Revy]

Geez. I NEVER said that the 5.7 rounds were more powerful than the 5.56 rounds, I said they were a bigger CALIBRE, which yes, they are (admitedly not by much). Obviously the 5.56 is more powerful because it's an assault rifle round whilst the P90 is an SMG. SMG's are deliberately made to be weaker than assault rifles because they wanted a weapon that wouldnt shoot through entire buildings and risk killing civillian bystanders. An SMG is a close to mid range weapon, and utilises ammunition types that reflect that.

I should also point out that round power, penetration and damage are not always connected. The SAS Counter Terrorist teams use 9mm ammunition (last I heard anyway, though they may have updated it these days). Why? Because a 9mm parabellum round will lodge in a target and deal more damage than a slim full metal jacketed rifle round, which was known to pass clean through hostiles and leave them standing (rare, but it happened). So just because an M4 shot packs more power per bullet doesnt mean it will put an enemy gunmen down any faster or more effectively than an SMG round will. Granted SMG's have problems with armour, but then the P90 was specifically made to deal with body armour, whilst maintaining the advantages of an SMG.

All I know is, if I were in a cramped spaceship corridor facing down hordes of Jaffa coming at me, I'd prefer the compact P90 with it's SMG bullets and superior ammo capacity over an assault rifle intended for long range firefights. Besides, a P90 already outranges Jaffa and Wraith weapons, so using a rifle seems overkill on the range front.

As for the teflon rounds, once again people make assumptions based on what I said, however I was merely quoting Carter from an SG1 episode, namely;

CARTER: This weapon is called a P90. It carries a 50 round, top loading magazine of teflon coated ordinance with a cyclical rate of fire of 900 rounds per minute.

From the episode The Warrior. If you notice I never said jack about it 'increasing penetrative power'. 5.7mm ammo as far as I know get's its superior armour penetration abilities from its more sharper pointed shape. It's like they took the penetrative aspects of a rifle round and married it to an SMG bullet.

So your right, she DID ask someone, but Ronan was there too. My problem is how could a "Preliminary training" have included the use of multiple stations and functions across the ship? To the point where she's telling RODNEY how to fix the ship???

She suggested once that he run a diagnostic. For all we know she overheard Zalenka suggest the same thing to one of his people when a console fried out, and she simply remembered it. Or she saw someone running a diagnostic, asked what they were doing and they told her. As for her training, so what? "So Teyla, over here you have the sensors, and here we have sublight control and navigation. You use these buttons here mainly, and they do this and that." I imagine it was a bit more inclusive than that, but really it depends on how streamlined and simple their operating system is. As I said though, Selmac gave Daniel what couldn't have been more than five, maybe ten minutes worth of driving instructions, and he did just peachy. I really don't think her actions demonstrated any kind of unreasonable superhuman learning skills.

Granted Tey'la appears to be pretty good at speaking English (Stereotype newbie mannerisms aside) but now she can read technical readouts?

Someone tried the same arguement with Carter in the SG1 episode Revisions;

CARTER: "Do you have the readings from this morning?"

PALLAN: "Of course." (He brings up the readings.) "You see? No variation."

CARTER: "This is wrong."

PALLAN: "These measurements are foreign to you."

CARTER: "Well, it doesn't mean I can't recognize a relative drop."

And again, it doesn't take a few minutes to explain things to her. "What does this symbol mean? - Oh, that means radiation, right. And this? That's the on/off command. Gotcha." If anything it would show that she is quick to pick things up and has a good memory, but that's not unusual. Heck, just look at Jonas Quinn - he had a fantastic memory and learning capacity, and memorised the entire layout of a Goa'uld mothership. All Teyla did was listen to some basic operating procedures and remembered what they told her did what.

So you are comparing a P90 to a spaceship?

I'm comparing the ability of a non-combatant to, in his spare time (off screen) learn how to safely use and fire a modern SMG weapon, which is not as easy as just picking it up and pulling the trigger. He obviously, like Daniel Jackson, took time out of his usual job of annoying people and tinkering with Ancient tech, to learn how to use a dangerous weapon. It is therefor no great leap of faith to accept that someone like Teyla could take time out from meditating and martial arts, to learn how to read a human computer screen and what buttons did what, especially as I have said, it is quite an important skill. And again, it's not like she navigated the Daed around the galaxy and fought off a fleet of ships. All she did was utilise the sensors to scan the surface of a planet. I think I could do that if someone spent ten-fifteen minutes to show me how, especially since the action itself took her mere seconds to perform - hardly complex.

After Rodney nearly electrocuted himself she gave a pretty detailed explanation of what he did wrong. that suggests she has a sophisticated enough understanding of the computer systems to know how they worked, how power distribution works etc.

She said;

Perhaps a separate diagnostic of the auxiliary system might be useful.

Which was a suggestion that he run a checkup on the backups. Not exactly a 'detailed' explanation of what went wrong. She told him double check the damn thing, that's all.

The playschool(tm) spaceships??? Their technology is as dumbed down as it can get, have you seen their navigation system? its two trackball mouses. Goa'uld ships were designed tor a low tech people to operate without giving them any real understanding of how it worked. Jack alluded to this when he compared the operation of the P90 to a staff weapon.

HA! Now who's comparing a gun to a spaceship? Either way if the Goa'uld could make a control interface that worked and was simple enough for a moron to use, and the SGC makes one that is so complex only an expert can operate, then they are profoundly stupid. I don't think they would however. Again though, as far as I can remember all she did was use the ships sensors, and she does it with press of a few buttons and a glance at some computer screens. Not exactly quantum phsyics.

Atlantis needs a little diversity, they are oversimplifying the arc story lines. Some of the better arcs in SG-1 involved Goa'uld, ancients asgard, replicators and russians. it wasn't just "Wraith! Everywhere! Wraith!!!

As I said, if that's what you want it looks like you're going to get it. We have the Wraith. We have Michael and his halfbreeds, on top of god knows what other genetic nightmares he has cooked up. We have the Genii. The Ancients. The Travellers. The Replicators (yes, they're coming back) and a whole new alien race, quite possibly the one we just saw. Granted, a worrying number of upcomming episode summaries hint at a continued focus on the Wraith, but it looks like there's more going on and who knows? This may be the Wraiths last outting. Maybe they'll get wiped out entirely.

[His Divine Shadow]

Geez. I NEVER said that the 5.7 rounds were more powerful than the 5.56 rounds, I said they were a bigger CALIBRE, which yes, they are (admitedly not by much). Obviously the 5.56 is more powerful because it's an assault rifle round whilst the P90 is an SMG. SMG's are deliberately made to be weaker than assault rifles because they wanted a weapon that wouldnt shoot through entire buildings and risk killing civillian bystanders. An SMG is a close to mid range weapon, and utilises ammunition types that reflect that.

Given the way you said it and indeed that you bothered mentioning it all gave that impression. I do not think there is a single instance of a 5.56 being documented of going through a person like that unless it was a glancing hit, like through a hand. the 7.62 soviet and nato though, I think they had that problem with FMJ.

I should also point out that round power, penetration and damage are not always connected. The SAS Counter Terrorist teams use 9mm ammunition (last I heard anyway, though they may have updated it these days). Why? Because a 9mm parabellum round will lodge in a target and deal more damage than a slim full metal jacketed rifle round, which was known to pass clean through hostiles and leave them standing (rare, but it happened). So just because an M4 shot packs more power per bullet doesnt mean it will put an enemy gunmen down any faster or more effectively than an SMG round will. Granted SMG's have problems with armour, but then the P90 was specifically made to deal with body armour, whilst maintaining the advantages of an SMG.

Well both the 5.7 and 5.56 are very thin rounds, but they yaw and pitch inside the body and cause more internal damage that way (the 5.56 being superior at this).

All I know is, if I were in a cramped spaceship corridor facing down hordes of Jaffa coming at me, I'd prefer the compact P90 with it's SMG bullets and superior ammo capacity over an assault rifle intended for long range firefights. Besides, a P90 already outranges Jaffa and Wraith weapons, so using a rifle seems overkill on the range front.

Well if I was issuing the firearms I would issue the one thats suitable for the widest range of likely situations, I think thats the M4. Also the M4 is primarily a close combat weapon, very successfull in that role too, but it can reach out much further as a bonus. The P90 is a good close quarter weapon but it's range drops off quickly. It's obviously optimized for that one role while the M4 can do more roles while still being one of the best CQB weapons yet devised.

As for the teflon rounds, once again people make assumptions based on what I said, however I was merely quoting Carter from an SG1 episode, namely;

CARTER: This weapon is called a P90. It carries a 50 round, top loading magazine of teflon coated ordinance with a cyclical rate of fire of 900 rounds per minute.

From the episode The Warrior. If you notice I never said jack about it 'increasing penetrative power'. 5.7mm ammo as far as I know get's its superior armour penetration abilities from its more sharper pointed shape. It's like they took the penetrative aspects of a rifle round and married it to an SMG bullet.

Well the teflon coated armor piecering bullet meme is often cited so thats what first popped into my mind. To me the 5.7 looks like a compromise between a 5.56 and a 9mm round. I think it's lacking in lethality, sacrified for having AP performance in an SMG sized cartridge I suppose, hence neccessitating multiple hits. It's actually very realistic when they shoot multiple rounds into most enemies like they do in SG.

[[R_H]]

You think wrong. The P-90 was designed as a replacement for the MP-5 as an effective secondary weapon for vehicle crews to carry. It was also intended as a weapon to fire the new 5.7mm round which was intended to have superior effect against ligh body armor.

Man, it's been effective in replacing the MP5, hasn't it. Has the MP-5 ever been used as a PDW in vehicle crews? Look at the list of users of the P90, most of them are police units or special forces...they're not used as PDWs by vehicle crewers. From [ur=http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm]Modern Firearms[/url]

The FN P90 submachine gun (SMG) was developed in the late 1980s as a personal defense weapon for the troops whose primary activities does not include small arms, such as vehicle and tank crew members, artillery crews etc. Standard pistols and submachine guns chambered for pistol rounds were proved ineffective against enemy soldiers, wearing body armor; Therefore FN designers first developed a new round with enhanced penetration, initially known as SS90.

It has failed at that, which militaries use the P90 as an SMG for artillery crews, vehicle crews etc?

Most interesting fact about adoption of P90 is that so far it has been adopted for the role, directly opposite to its original niche of "personal defense weapon". In fact, most services and agencies that adopted P90 use it for offensive roles, as a specialist or even a primary weapon for various assault teams, and other "professional small-arms users", as opposed to military personnel which primary functions do not include use of small arms.

[Revy]

Yup. The M4 does seem like a very good weapon, which is probably why the SG combat teams use it. Didnt Carter use it as well once or twice? I remember her using one against the Replicators when on Thors ship way back when they first introduced them. And more recently I think they had the combat engineer teams use them in Stargate Atlantis. So it does have them, just not very often. I agree that they probably pick the P90 for its look as much as anything else, and possibly because someone supplied them with a butt load of P90 replicas.

My best friend is in the RAF Regiment (51st Squadron I think) and he's fired a P90 a couple of times. He said it was a good weapon, but he's a machine gunner and he loves GPMG's, so he's always praising them to the hilts more than anything else. He actually got me a pair of 5.56 rounds and a 7.62 round as a gift (something he shouldn't have done, but I'm not complaining) and the 5.56 look tiny next to the bigger sized round. He told me that in a firing exercise he saw an american using a 5.56 weapon (not sure if it was an M4 or something else, it's a popular round) a shot hit a clump of hard ground and bounced off, whilst the 7.62 rounds being fired just tore through the ground. He did nevertheless say that the M4 is a very good weapon.

Can anyone ID Carters custom gun though? It's the one she uses in later seasons of SG1.

[His Divine Shadow]

Looks like a custom AR based gun. you can see the common AR features, the forward assist, brass deflector, 100 round betamag, forward vertical grip, looks like a railed free float handguard.

Other mods include no iron sights, maybe a 7.5" barrel barrel (which really reduces the effectiveness of 5.56 with regards to range). I dunno any particular brand for this gun, the closest I've seen would be the HK-416. But it doesn't look like one of those. Thats a weird stock too.

I'd say some movie props guy throwed together sometihng that looked cool without regards for effectiveness.