Results of the new study, “The Cost to Circumcise Africa,” comparing the cost of male circumcision to the cost of lifetime distribution of free condoms in sub-Saharan Africa, found that condom distribution is 95 times more cost-effective in preventing the same number of infections in Sub-Saharan Africa.
Asheville, NC (PRWEB) August 4, 2008 -- Results of the new study, “The Cost to Circumcise Africa,” comparing the cost of male circumcision to the cost of lifetime distribution of free condoms in sub-Saharan Africa, found that condom distribution is 95 times more cost-effective in preventing the same number of infections in Sub-Saharan Africa.
“Male circumcision is too costly to justify in the HIV battle. Even if circumcision does offer some protection against heterosexually transmitted HIV, condoms clearly provide more protection, at a much lower cost,” says study co-author and Wellness Associates co-founder John Travis, MD, MPH. “We found that it just doesn’t make sense to perform mass surgeries in a region of the world struggling to meet the most basic healthcare needs, especially when there are more cost-effective plans for achieving the same results.”
In 1975, after six years in the US Public Health Service, and completing a residency in preventive medicine at Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, John Travis opened the world’s first wellness center, Wellness Resource Center (now Wellness Associates), in Mill Valley, California. His work attracted national attention, leading to an appearance on 60 Minutes with Dan Rather in 1979, and launching the hitherto unknown word "wellness" into the public domain.
The study will be published in Fall 2008.
Something tells me that male genital mutilation will be preferred for non-monetary reasons.
It's too bad this kind of info isn't already evoking a "Well DUH" response from everyone. I just saw a story yesterday about a NEW mutilation device they discovered for more 'efficient' circumcisions with less healing problems. I wanted to smash my fist through the screen. Especially as the article continues and just states that circumcision came into vogue as early as ancient Egypt but was later discovered to offer protection against urinary tract infections, penile cancer, etc. The fact that those claims have been not only disputed but effectively debunked is not mentioned at all of course. At the VERY best I believe there is an extremely small percentage, as in less then .01% or something that might indicate a trend in that direction, but this would be less then the amount of complications and botched operations of the bloody circumcision itself. It's fucking ridiculous. Cairber could probably drum up some of those statistics. She's quite informed on the issue.
The anti-circ movement was just starting to get serious attention and I'll bet within the next 10 years we would have seen a much more serious challenge to any routine infant circumcision, or even allowing the parents to choose it. But these asshole scientists that are using this stupid statistical shell game as justification for the practice are doing the greatest disservice to Africa imaginable. Their entire focus should have been on one major thing. CONDOMS, CONDOMS and MORE CONDOMS. It's the only truly effective protection of ANY serious statistical interest.
I am just baffled that scientists could be this stupid. They think it's ok because they also stress "Oh no...you can't just be circumcised, you still have to use a condom for the added protection." Well then you don't need the fucking circ in the FIRST place you idiots! The only people it's going to potentially benefit are barebackers and do you think they'll just screw once in their life? So it might take them the 9th time instead of the 3rd fuck to catch HIV. Whoop to doo. Way to go doc. What a wonderful bit of 'protection' you gave the lucky lad.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong
"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
Go figure...THIS is the argument that is actually turning American heads on this issue (quite a bit of activity on this story on various parenting message boards I frequent). I find the same thing with regards to infant circumcision in the USA; sometimes the only way you can get people to sit up a listen to is show them how much of their tax money gets spent on cosmetic genital cutting.
Say NO to circumcisionIT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The problem is that men in Africa simply nail condoms over the door to their bedroom before sex, like a magic charm, rather than actually using them.
The problem is that men in Africa simply nail condoms over the door to their bedroom before sex, like a magic charm, rather than actually using them.
Please tell me your kidding....
Providing they don't discover a cure or an effective vaccine soon, This world is not going to win the war on AIDS until every major country wakes the fuck up and starts treating HIV and sexuality based on a sensible, scientific approach that implements both mandatory safe sex education, and the distribution and availability of condoms. Any opposition to this policy whether from religion, prudery, bigotry or cultural differences have to be told to shut the fuck up and deal with it! It's a public health nightmare that ultimately could cause massive genocide to the human race. At the very LEAST it could bankrupt many countries just to treat people if they were infected by the millions.
I've said it before..it's a sad thing that HIV is mainly transmitted through sexual contact. There couldn't be a more effective way that prevents eradication of the disease then a vector that has moral hangups in vast amounts of people stopping them from even DISCUSSING the subject in some cases.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong
"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
No, I'm not kidding. It's been documented and I think the original article was posted on this board back in 2003, even. Other charming practices include the use of a certain plant to dry out the woman's vagina, as a woman with a dry vagina is considered more pleasureable for the man (and who cares if she's crying and ripped up inside. She's just a woman), which also of course massively makes the passing of HIV from one partner to the other more likely.
Christ, what do you expect, this is a continent where people run around naked or dressed in women's clothes in battle because it will confuse the death-demons into thinking their spirits are somewhere else, since they'll see women instead of men, and thus they won't be killed. They also fire rifles directly into the air to give the bullet more "power", and kill and eat pygmies (the people!) because doing so is believed to make you invincible in battle, so much so that the pygmy population in the Congo was nearly wiped out during the civil war there by soldiers hunting them to eat them before battle (they're not seen as people by the locals).
These are also the people who brought us so much bayonet rape that vaginal fistulae are a common complaint in much of the Congo, and in Ethiopia for that matter, and numerous other horrors.
The simple fact is that circumcision makes sense in Africa because the people are too primitive to understand the alternatives. Whereas circumcision can be portrayed as a sacred manhood rite which protects you from the penis-rotting AIDS demons during sex, which will make it enormously popular.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
Cairber wrote:Yeah circumcision makes the dry sex thing even more dangerous, but it's not an issue you see talked about much, surprisingly (or not I suppose...)
Do you have any better solution for Africa, though?
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
Couple that with the studies of a few months ago demonstrating increased infection rates for women and issues with men not waiting the required 4-6 weeks before resuming sex, and I think circumcision won't come out on top.
But, to tell you the truth, it's not something I am totally "out there on the streets" arguing against. There too much here on the issue to deal with; however, the circumcision to prevent HIV thing does affect minds in the USA as well, despite the reality of HIV/AIDS here...high circumcision rates, high infections rates, 2 studies showing no affect with circumcision here, etc.
I am tempted to say "they get to chose and this is the choice they are making in Africa" but I feel that, perhaps, I cannot say this because they are not getting good information. We have DeCock and Halperin on record 2-3 times calling/likening circumcision to a vaccine...
Say NO to circumcisionIT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.
The problem is that men in Africa simply nail condoms over the door to their bedroom before sex, like a magic charm, rather than actually using them.
Please tell me your kidding....
I´ve read an article about this several years agout, even though i think this particular story was from somewhere in Asia.
From my experience African men generaly know how to use condoms. The problem is a "Would you go swimming in a rain coat" mindset wich seems quite prevalent. I usually answered with something among the lines "No, but i´d go shark diving in a shark cage" which was usually ignored.
They believed a whole bunch of weird shit like Fidel Castro having the cure for AIDS but not giving it away in order to annoy Bush, living dead and milk from the breasts of women curing the bite of black mambas. However, they knew what condoms were there for.
Perhaps crap like this happens here and there and is believed that by some but the vast majority i´d say knows what condoms are for.
It´s probably different in areas which have been and still are in civil war for long times but most places in Africa are not. And people there learn stuff in school and see the adds on the streets and on TV.
Cairber wrote:Yeah circumcision makes the dry sex thing even more dangerous, but it's not an issue you see talked about much, surprisingly (or not I suppose...)
Do you have any better solution for Africa, though?
Yes, AIDS education. Look at places like Uganda. They were doing pretty well with lowering their AIDS rates before the wonder chimp started promoting his abstinence only bullshit via USAID there. Imagine 15 meter tall signs from USAID promoting abstinence only in an AIDS infected country like that. It´s beyond disgusting what the Americans are doing there.
There is also the fact that doctors are now talking about how "not enough skin" is being taken off in Africa, leading to increased infections because foreskin remnants remain. One such story is here:
Sometimes they blame it only on ritual circumcisions, but, in fact, there is no protocol for how much skin is to be taken off. So, now we are getting reports of "too much skin being left" out of a couple agencies as a way to explain increased or continued infection of circumcised patients.
Say NO to circumcisionIT'S A BOY! This is a great link to show expecting parents.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:No, I'm not kidding. It's been documented and I think the original article was posted on this board back in 2003, even. Other charming practices include the use of a certain plant to dry out the woman's vagina, as a woman with a dry vagina is considered more pleasureable for the man (and who cares if she's crying and ripped up inside. She's just a woman), which also of course massively makes the passing of HIV from one partner to the other more likely.
Christ, what do you expect, this is a continent where people run around naked or dressed in women's clothes in battle because it will confuse the death-demons into thinking their spirits are somewhere else, since they'll see women instead of men, and thus they won't be killed. They also fire rifles directly into the air to give the bullet more "power", and kill and eat pygmies (the people!) because doing so is believed to make you invincible in battle, so much so that the pygmy population in the Congo was nearly wiped out during the civil war there by soldiers hunting them to eat them before battle (they're not seen as people by the locals).
These are also the people who brought us so much bayonet rape that vaginal fistulae are a common complaint in much of the Congo, and in Ethiopia for that matter, and numerous other horrors.
The simple fact is that circumcision makes sense in Africa because the people are too primitive to understand the alternatives. Whereas circumcision can be portrayed as a sacred manhood rite which protects you from the penis-rotting AIDS demons during sex, which will make it enormously popular.
You can not generalize like this. There is no "they". There might be certain areas where people are fucked up beyond recognition (sort of understandable after years and years of brutal civil war) but it´s simply not the case for most places. The people there are usually dressed, even the ones you see in the bush, they eat manioc, rice and chicken not people, and they do understand what condoms are good for. There are definitely a lot of problems but it´s not the hell hole you´re painting it here.
Now i´m not sure if you intended this generalisation but it came off as such.
Plus a nitpick - the herb thing is generally NOT regarding the male's pleasure, it has to do with appearing chaste. Apparently a slick pussy is a sign of impurity and infidelity.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Other charming practices include the use of a certain plant to dry out the woman's vagina, as a woman with a dry vagina is considered more pleasureable for the man (and who cares if she's crying and ripped up inside. She's just a woman), which also of course massively makes the passing of HIV from one partner to the other more likely.
From what I read, a lot of women do it voluntarily to please their men, and some families have special concoctions that have been passed down from mother to daughter for generations. I presume the do it out of fear, probably justifiable, that if they don't they'll be abandoned.
Though I've always wondered at how could anyone possibly think that a dry vagina is pleasurable. I don't like putting my finger in there if it's dry, let alone the penis.
salm wrote:
You can not generalize like this. There is no "they". There might be certain areas where people are fucked up beyond recognition (sort of understandable after years and years of brutal civil war) but it´s simply not the case for most places. The people there are usually dressed, even the ones you see in the bush, they eat manioc, rice and chicken not people, and they do understand what condoms are good for. There are definitely a lot of problems but it´s not the hell hole you´re painting it here.
Now i´m not sure if you intended this generalisation but it came off as such.
Well, certainly so. I respect Haile Selassie as one of the greater figures of the 20th century, and I rather have a romantic ideal of Lettow-Vorbeck's Askaris; to say I'm contemptuous of Africans would be an affront to me. But the continent, generally speaking, cannot be described in terms of modern civilization, even if parts of it are civilized by standards that the Greeks and Romans would have accepted as such, or the medieval Muslims, ignoring of course the Mediterranean Littoral, which might as well be a different continent culturally and socially, separated by the ocean of the Sahara Desert.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:No, I'm not kidding. It's been documented and I think the original article was posted on this board back in 2003, even. Other charming practices include the use of a certain plant to dry out the woman's vagina, as a woman with a dry vagina is considered more pleasureable for the man (and who cares if she's crying and ripped up inside. She's just a woman), which also of course massively makes the passing of HIV from one partner to the other more likely.
I don't see how that could be pleasurable for the man neither (even though I know they like it because it "feels like a virgin") it would result in pretty good tearing on the part of the man as well.
Brotherhood of the Monkey @( !.! )@ To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
to say I'm contemptuous of Africans would be an affront to me. But the continent, generally speaking, cannot be described in terms of modern civilization, even if parts of it are civilized by standards that the Greeks and Romans would have accepted as such, or the medieval Muslims, ignoring of course the Mediterranean Littoral, which might as well be a different continent culturally and socially, separated by the ocean of the Sahara Desert.
Yeah this is what's extremely frustrating is that we're dealing with countries of the world that really should be brought into the 21st century whether they want it or not. Realistically we are educated enough to understand the interrelationship between disease and humanity. It's not 'evil spirits', and ultimately we are all living in one giant soup bowl of pathogens. There are only a handful of truly remote groups of people that do not regularly interact with foreigners, so eventually it's totally possible for a fisherman in Fiji to win the lotto and pick up a mutated flu bug from a local guinea fowl and end up passing it on through the human daisy chain to a newborn baby in Iceland. The sheer number of people routinely traveling around the globe through air travel can pass on microbes before they even show symptoms in the FIRST person.
I wish that the United Nations had real teeth and that the major world powers would vote in favour of them being able to conduct a worldwide campaign to bring at least a minimum of educational standards and secular knowledge that all countries wishing to have any serious contact and trade with others would have to implement. This of course would be including mandatory sex ed and contraceptive access. Of course this is a pipe dream for now because even places that are relatively developed by industrial standards like Iran are HOPELESSLY backwards in what they would allow to be taught and allowed regarding sexual matters. Unfortunately in many cases it's their religion which ends up being the chains of their past crippling their future.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong
"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
Being circumsized is also uncomfortable. I'm really curious why that isn't brought up. Imagine having someone put a piece of leather on your open eye, that's kind of what it feels like.
Seriously, why do we still have circumcisions. No one gains - everyone loses.
ExarKun wrote:I'm not knowledgeable in this at all. How does circumcising offer more protection, can somebody explain?
The logic goes as such.
The foreskin does things like trap bacteria and blood and other bodily fluids near the glans of the penis, and thus the eurethral opening, thus allowing for better chances of infection.
Additionally, if the person practices improper hygiene, they can get wonderful little infections from that too
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/ Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.
CaptainZoidberg wrote:Being circumsized is also uncomfortable. I'm really curious why that isn't brought up. Imagine having someone put a piece of leather on your open eye, that's kind of what it feels like.
Seriously, why do we still have circumcisions. No one gains - everyone loses.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Well, certainly so. I respect Haile Selassie as one of the greater figures of the 20th century, and I rather have a romantic ideal of Lettow-Vorbeck's Askaris; to say I'm contemptuous of Africans would be an affront to me. But the continent, generally speaking, cannot be described in terms of modern civilization, even if parts of it are civilized by standards that the Greeks and Romans would have accepted as such, or the medieval Muslims, ignoring of course the Mediterranean Littoral, which might as well be a different continent culturally and socially, separated by the ocean of the Sahara Desert.
Yeah, because the Romans had skyscrapers and rush hours.
That's not the point anyways. The point is that most people there can understand what condoms are good for and be educated into using them as seen in the example of Uganda in the pre Bush era. No need for mutilating them if only the right measures are taken.
