Project: "EU-fic"

[Admiral Felire]

Wait are we actually changing the Old Republic timeline. Are we changing what it means to be Sith, or the movies. Because if so, then I don't really want anything to do with that In This Project.

What I thought was that this project was all about the Post-Endor Expanded Universe. Not about anything that happened before.

Also, certain things I think are fundamental, and the actions of Palpatine as creator, ruler and all about power guy is one of them. Any reduction in what he has done, is not something that I approve of. Star Wars is about the actions of individuals, and the fact that a single man did all that he did is something that I think is important.

But I will also say this. I think that something about the Star Wars galaxy means that all governments need Jedi or Jedi-like agents to make the government stable. And that at higher levels authoritarian governments work better than pure democracy.

I also really like the idea of making it so that in a generation or century from Endor (after the main characters of this era are deceased) the government that is dominant will be a new Empire - probably an outbreak of the Imperial Remnant. I like that because historians, if they choose, could declare that the new Galactic Empire retains the honor of the first Galactic Empire and the Galactic Republic. It is also where they are going in the Legacy Era comics and I think it actually works and makes sense.

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I will say this. We need some organization. We need some clarifications on what we are doing. On what is the expected goal and what we will be modifying and changing. I also think we need to figure out if this is a project about the post-Endor EU or is it about all fiction in Star Wars.

[Illuminatus Primus]

About the Chiss, you just decided it on your own. Just like you did about galactic organization and poltiical organization. Now, the differences is that I agree with you on astrographic and political organization, but not the Chiss.

If the Chiss are in the rim of the main galaxy then they are in no way going to remain independent. But if they are nestled within the scope of a nearby galaxy than chances are they can remain invisible for much longer time.

I repeat, like the Sith. I think it would work for them being in another border galaxy as well.

Why would it be any less desirable to visit these satellite galaxies if they know they are there and are capable of visiting? You're talking about them somehow remaining isolated for 25,000 years of hyperdrive transit (same week trans-galactic travel, minimum). That astronomically observable satellite galaxies would remain unexplored enough to handle political entities which would remain foreign bestriding them defies credibility.

I am not going through all my books, but I think it was in Survivor's Quest, which is occuring as far as I'm concerned (though not unchanged, that is, afterall, the point of this attempt). They speak about how they have been fighting and protecting the galaxy against threats of monstrous proportions. Well, that makes a lot more sense if one considers what they are doing as protecting their mini galaxy, rather than the main galaxy.

You're still discarding the content of their claims in your system. You're only retaining it in a bare semantic sense.

About the Clone Wars, I don't care whether you choose to do something with them. All I am stating is that I don't think it should be in this project and that if you do something then its not to throw them out and rewrite it all from scratch. That wasn't the point of this project, it was to take the stories that don't make sense and try to bring them all in line.

Actually it was stated at the beginning of the thread that we would keep basically the Bantam arc and the OT as a work point, and I suggested a PrequelFic capacity built into this project, and most seem to have gone with it. In fact, you're the first person I noticed to complain.

Accuracy and clarity is only one thing. Politics is another and poltiical titles and all that need to also sound mighty, powerful and to make sense. If we are keeping Grand Admiral then having Grand General makes sense from a unity standpoint. If we have other titles with 'High' in it, then it also makes sense to have High General or High Admiral. Sometimes poltiics comes before logic and that is okay in my estimation.

"General" means what it does as an adjective. Where do you think "attorney general" as chief attorney comes from? "General" is really short for captain general (subordinate to colonel general), which itself is followed by lieutenant general by (sergeant) major general, to brigadier. General of the Army is an acceptable rank, because it really comes from "captain general of the army". What does grand general mean? "Big, generally"? I am afraid that simply because two terms contain a word, like "grand," does not mean that it is appropriate or meaningful to conflate and equate the two, or that the word did not have a meaning in of itself. Grand admiral makes sense from a German naval perspective; the highest rank in the German navy was grand admiral. There are already terms for "most senior general officer," such as field marshal, field marshal general, general of the army, general of the armies, marshal general, generalissimo, etc. Why use something stupid like "grand general"?

Because really, it makes no less military sense to have a Surface Marshal then it does to have a High Marshal or whatever, the people in the universe won't consider it to be unlogical.

Surface marshal is a space age calque of "field marshal," and perfectly acceptable for its intended meaning as such.

Discussion of how things are going to be organized is a point of this thread. So I do not feel that anything we have discucsed has been off topic. Because of that, I will continue to use this thread to present my ideas, thoughts, concepts of organization and all that. At least until we create another general page, which we do not have.

You can start one yourself. I don't think anyone would object.

Sector Populations

I also want to make note that according to page 10 of the Imperial Sourcebook, sectors do not always have fifty worlds. They orgionally did, but they do not any longer. This is important. A sector can have fifty, and then the sector next door can have 500. I posted in my post above the source that supports this.

That page suggests that sectors were intended to have only 50 worlds, but they deviated from that standard and it wasn't kept. But the example of the Chommell Sector from AOTC: ICS shows 36 member worlds. I don't think 50 is the minority (though I think Core World sectors may have many more) I feel the Rim sectors are probably significantly less. I don't see why a subsector governing level other than the systems governorate, which is attributed, is necessary.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wait are we actually changing the Old Republic timeline. Are we changing what it means to be Sith, or the movies. Because if so, then I don't really want anything to do with that In This Project.

We're abandoning Lucas's Prequel films as they were made, do avoid constraints on where we take the post-OT era. We're still just discussing and throwing what we think things Ought To Be around, and feeling around. This is never going to get off unless we share our own ideas of what ought to be, what's workable, and discuss rationally and communally the relative merits of each other's ideas. You shouldn't bail, we've hardly got a consensus. I don't know if you've read Jedi vs. Sith, but I don't know how anyone even in a strict discussion of the real continuity, can believe that they are real.

What I thought was that this project was all about the Post-Endor Expanded Universe. Not about anything that happened before.

We're basically pretending its 1998 and there's no PT, and mostly just the Bantam-era post-ROTJ EU run. You have the OT and the Bantam novels up til Corellian Trilogy (maybe YJK and JJK too) and the comics printed then probably, and that's it. We're going to look at the ancient background bit by bit. Some stuff is just too stupid to take seriously, like the Jedi vs. Sith comic. Take it one step at a time.

Also, certain things I think are fundamental, and the actions of Palpatine as creator, ruler and all about power guy is one of them. Any reduction in what he has done, is not something that I approve of. Star Wars is about the actions of individuals, and the fact that a single man did all that he did is something that I think is important.

But I will also say this. I think that something about the Star Wars galaxy means that all governments need Jedi or Jedi-like agents to make the government stable. And that at higher levels authoritarian governments work better than pure democracy.

I agree with all this, strongly. I think you have a good sense for that essential "thing" to Star Wars, and I also have spent time thinking about the role of Force sensitives in general and Jedi in particular and why they are so special and important and why people bother with them, and I think something needs to be done to explain and integrate it. I look forward to an idea you have about this, because unlike the Republic and its age and stasis, unlike the Unknown Regions, etc. I don't have a fix for it and I haven't developed anything really. I don't know what to do with it. This is something I'm hoping the rest of you guys can help with.

I also really like the idea of making it so that in a generation or century from Endor (after the main characters of this era are deceased) the government that is dominant will be a new Empire - probably an outbreak of the Imperial Remnant. I like that because historians, if they choose, could declare that the new Galactic Empire retains the honor of the first Galactic Empire and the Galactic Republic. It is also where they are going in the Legacy Era comics and I think it actually works and makes sense.

I would push it further back than just a hundred years, but I agree its interesting conceptually, that's for sure. I had some ideas for it based on some of Lucas' early scripts (the Empire itself not being the bad guys, the darksiders Sith whatever being the power behind the throne of a puppet, etc.)

I will say this. We need some organization. We need some clarifications on what we are doing. On what is the expected goal and what we will be modifying and changing. I also think we need to figure out if this is a project about the post-Endor EU or is it about all fiction in Star Wars.

All fiction is way way too broad. I think much of the Knights of the Old Republic game arc can be retained perhaps. It bares more discussion.

[Admiral Felire]

My issue is that if we have a Grand Admiral it makes sense to have a Grand General as an equivalent. Why have one 'grand' rank and not another for the equivalent service. Considering that to me the ranks of Grand Admiral and Grand General were special and directly appointed by Palpatine, not routine and normal military ranking. When Palpatine ruled, a Grand Admiral (to me) could have gone anywhere and used any naval force that he wished to do because his authority came directly from the Emperor and bypassed all other levels. He could go into a sector and say "I'm taking this sector group because I feel that it is necessary." And legally he would have the authority.

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See what I see as a problem is that if we ignore the prequel movies then we are going into the realm of what we wish Star Wars to be. And that could cause problems.

See, for example, I like the Empire and thing its a better government than the Old Republic, the New Republic and and any other government in Star Wars. but others might not agree. I also hate the rebels and thing that they are terrorists and were not supported despite their win in the end.

For example, I prefer the idea of the Galactic Empire under Palpatine ruling for generations. I think it kinda made sense in light of Episode 4.

Because the way that Obi-Wan talks about the great old republic to me means that it something that happened a long long time ago, that only a few people would remember. If it happened within the last twenty years then its not ancient or old its living memory, and something is lost.

Here is another thing, if we ignore episodes 1, 2 and 3 then all those books around that period which were good are also going to be thrown away. And that is somewhat sad.

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General timeline ideas

Galactic Republic - ruled for some 25,000 years, maybe even more such as 30,000. This is based on the 'thousand generations' quote by Obi-Wan.

Time of Turmoil - The Galactic Republic got to large, to corrupt and begin its downward spiral. It was during this time that Palpatine, seeing the corruption that had taken root, began his plans on conquest by diplomacy. Orchestrating his rise to power over decades he managed to gain control and be declared - legally - the emperor of the galaxy. The Galactic Empire was born.

Galactic Empire - ruled by Palpatine for almost a century. That provides a sort of time barrier to time that allows for most people no longer remembering the Galactic Republic. Because seriously, how many people even now in the real world remember what happened a century ago.

Rebellion Era - Starts with Yavin and a decade or so occurs between Yavin and Endor, in which Palpatine dies.

Time of Warlordism - This is the time between Endor and Dark Empire and includes dozens of wars, infighting, violence, changing of planets a thousand times and change to the galaxy that had not been seen in over 30,000 years. The Alliance establishes the New Republic

Second Rise of Palpatine - The Dark Empire series. The New Republic dies when Palpatine rises again.

Second Time of Warlordism - With the fall of Palpatine his recently united Imperial forces return to infighting and war. The Alliance tries to regain its authority. Fighting period begins.

Time of the Second Republic - After Palpatine is finally defeated another democratic government is established by the Alliance which over time manages to fully gain itself authority over the galaxy.

Rise of the Remnant - Pellaeon manages to unite disparate elements of the Imperial forces into a new Galactic Empire. Though much diminished it does enable the Imperial way of life to survive.

Era of Peace - This is a generation of peace while violence happens around the galaxy in pockets, very few things rock the galactic boat.

Galactic War - A time of major war breaks out between the galactic government and something. This takes years and causes problems.

Second Era of Peace - the government, changed because of the war, manges to survive for something like two centuries before a galactic crisis appears.

Second Empire - Something occurs that sees the fall of the democratic government and the rise of another autocratic state. Due to its connections to the Remnant, this government titles itself as the second Galactic Empire (no capitalization of second)

General timelines are fun and can be worked on very well.

[Illuminatus Primus]

My issue is that if we have a Grand Admiral it makes sense to have a Grand General as an equivalent.

You had better phone Hitler and Kaiser Wilhelm in Hell.

Why have one 'grand' rank and not another for the equivalent service. Considering that to me the ranks of Grand Admiral and Grand General were special and directly appointed by Palpatine, not routine and normal military ranking.

Yes, but grand admiral is a real rank and fits military nomenclature and grand general does not. The prefix to "general" is supposed to be another rank; lieutenant generals are called that because they are "lieutenants, general." General is short for captain general. What does grand general means? "Grand, general?"

When Palpatine ruled, a Grand Admiral (to me) could have gone anywhere and used any naval force that he wished to do because his authority came directly from the Emperor and bypassed all other levels. He could go into a sector and say "I'm taking this sector group because I feel that it is necessary." And legally he would have the authority.

I agree. The grand admirals appointed by Palpatine had imperium maius to carry out his commands as they saw fit.

See what I see as a problem is that if we ignore the prequel movies then we are going into the realm of what we wish Star Wars to be. And that could cause problems.

I'm sorry, but the prequels just are not good. It seems absurd to me to be on one hand trying to make Thrawn's portrayal more realistic while retaining dreck retardism like The Phantom Menace or The Clone Wars CG movie and series because they have the Lucas stamp. Totally counterintuitive.

See, for example, I like the Empire and thing its a better government than the Old Republic, the New Republic and and any other government in Star Wars. but others might not agree. I also hate the rebels and thing that they are terrorists and were not supported despite their win in the end.

That's a fine opinion, but is Star Wars really supposed to mean that? Is that what we're really supposed to take away? That the fascists are virtuous? Or is that because of Lucas' political naivete and incompetence that we actually root against the heroes' side because they are self-defeated idiot clowns? When I say fix something, I mean, "make it make sense the way it was supposed to be." And so the Jedi shouldn't be assholes, the Republic shouldn't be cheered into flames, the Empire shouldn't be celebrated, and the Rebels should be noble. Does that mean there should be no texture? Certainly not. But why subvert ourselves if we've given ourselves the freedom to ignore the stupid?

For example, I prefer the idea of the Galactic Empire under Palpatine ruling for generations. I think it kinda made sense in light of Episode 4.

Well that's not something we're doing. What you're talking about isn't Star Wars. And certainly not just a redo, but a counterfactual.

Because the way that Obi-Wan talks about the great old republic to me means that it something that happened a long long time ago, that only a few people would remember. If it happened within the last twenty years then its not ancient or old its living memory, and something is lost.

Clearly it always had happened soon enough that Obi-Wan, an old man, remembered "a more civilized age. Before the dark times, before the Empire." And when Luke's father could've been a young man.

Here is another thing, if we ignore episodes 1, 2 and 3 then all those books around that period which were good are also going to be thrown away. And that is somewhat sad.

I didn't know any of the books written in the prequel era were very good. Heh.

General timeline ideas

Galactic Republic - ruled for some 25,000 years, maybe even more such as 30,000. This is based on the 'thousand generations' quote by Obi-Wan.

Time of Turmoil - The Galactic Republic got to large, to corrupt and begin its downward spiral. It was during this time that Palpatine, seeing the corruption that had taken root, began his plans on conquest by diplomacy. Orchestrating his rise to power over decades he managed to gain control and be declared - legally - the emperor of the galaxy. The Galactic Empire was born.

I would emphasize that the Republic needed real and major reform, but was not beyond saving. Palpatine chose and caused it to be subverted. And his title is "Galactic Emperor" not "Emperor of the Galaxy" - there is a difference.

Galactic Empire - ruled by Palpatine for almost a century. That provides a sort of time barrier to time that allows for most people no longer remembering the Galactic Republic. Because seriously, how many people even now in the real world remember what happened a century ago.

We're throwing out ANH here, you know. Obi-Wan's backstory had no credibility according to this interpretation. I don't think this is workable. Though I agree 20 years is a bit short which is why I had the idea that the Empire starts before Episode III's events like the birth of Luke and Leia, the fall of Anakin, and the Jedi Purge.

Rebellion Era - Starts with Yavin and a decade or so occurs between Yavin and Endor, in which Palpatine dies.

Only four years went by.

Time of Warlordism - This is the time between Endor and Dark Empire and includes dozens of wars, infighting, violence, changing of planets a thousand times and change to the galaxy that had not been seen in over 30,000 years. The Alliance establishes the New Republic

This isn't born out by the post-ROTJ era. And I think its better if the Clone Wars are the greatest conflict of the age.

Second Rise of Palpatine - The Dark Empire series. The New Republic dies when Palpatine rises again.

Second Time of Warlordism - With the fall of Palpatine his recently united Imperial forces return to infighting and war. The Alliance tries to regain its authority. Fighting period begins.

Time of the Second Republic - After Palpatine is finally defeated another democratic government is established by the Alliance which over time manages to fully gain itself authority over the galaxy.

Okay so far.

Rise of the Remnant - Pellaeon manages to unite disparate elements of the Imperial forces into a new Galactic Empire. Though much diminished it does enable the Imperial way of life to survive.

It needs a purpose and a way to persist, and the EU chose to have it become a client state of the New Republic.

Era of Peace - This is a generation of peace while violence happens around the galaxy in pockets, very few things rock the galactic boat.

Galactic War - A time of major war breaks out between the galactic government and something. This takes years and causes problems.

Second Era of Peace - the government, changed because of the war, manges to survive for something like two centuries before a galactic crisis appears.

Second Empire - Something occurs that sees the fall of the democratic government and the rise of another autocratic state. Due to its connections to the Remnant, this government titles itself as the second Galactic Empire (no capitalization of second)

General timelines are fun and can be worked on very well.

I'd stretch this out to maybe a thousand years (or more!). Make the Second Empire much more its own thing (though it'd try to evoke the good aspects of the first).

[Admiral Felire]

See, its your opinion that the Prequel Trilogy is not good. And while I might agree with you that some parts of it need to be changed, not all of it does. I also think I might disagree with you (and you might disagree with others) on what needs to be done or what needs to be added. Its all a matter of opinion and personal interest, not general fact.

Star Wars is many things to many people and I don't think any one person's view on what it is the truth. This isn't directed all at you, but in the general sense of how we are going to go about doing things.

As has been mentioned Star Wars is a fantasy universe set in a science fiction universe. Jedi are wizards, the Force is Magic. and the forces of good and evil are grand and powerful. Times are epic and timelines are huge, covering great events.

To me those with the Force live longer than those that do not have it. So it is totally possible for me to beleive that a century went by and yet Obi-Wan remembers it. But not even a century, how about 50 years. Whatever we do it sounds like it should be more than 20.

I liked a number of the books, such as Shatterpoint, the novelizations of the movies and all that. The novelization of Revenge of the Sith was the best that I read in a while. So yeah, to me there are good Prequel Novels.

Okay, so the Galactic Republic was worth saving. That actually makes his choices more profound and moving. At a point in his life he had two choices - one to save the democracy and bring it about and make it better, or two to take over, topple a thousand generation government and make something imperial. He choose what he was going to do. And that to me is powerful.

My Age of Warlordism is played out in the EU novels. All those fighting, the battles, the violence, the conquests, the chaos. All that. You could call it something else - Time of Change, or other things, but the basic point exists. Between Endor and the Dark Empire war was pretty much constant throughout the galaxy as the forces of Imperial nature fought the forces of Alliance nature.

The Clone Wars are in no way the greatest conflict of the Age. Well, no, I take that back. The Clone Wars wast he greatest conflict of the Fall of the Galactic Republic era, then generations past and this the fighting after Endor is a new time of war and chaos and strife. Its a completely different issue, completely not related. Because the novelizations actually support all the war and strife and chaos and toppling of long-standing governments that happened after Endor.

Their purpose is that those that live there believe in the Imperial way of life. They are loyalist Imperials, they do what they do out of a sense of honor, of belief. It is probably a much more tight nit group than the Republic government that exists int he main portion of the galaxy.

And the Imperial Remnant is never a client state of the New Republic. It is a member state of the galaxy-spanning Galactic Alliance but member state and client state are two different things.

I like the idea of the second Galactic Empire actually being a continuation of the first in certain ways. It brings up the epic fantasy feel and I think that is good. As to the millennium passing, yeah, I approve of that.

I want to mention, that the nature of galactic society is that probably once a government finds itself stable then it remains table for a good amount of time. The Galactic Republic lasted 25,000 years. A successor republic should be able to last a good millennia or more as well. Then a new Empire can form.

[Karmic Knight]

While I don't agree with Illuminatus, there are good books and stories that come out of the PT-era (Medstar Duology comes to mind) I agree that the PT-era should just be scrapped, like the NJO-era, and the collateral Legacy(Comic)-era before it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Heh, I was being hyperbolic. Clearly I do like some things about the prequel films, the ROTS novel in particular, and plenty of other EU. Maintaining it in bloc will probably be too difficult so it should be discarded. However, if anything Hoth and I are nostalgic and will keep as much as we can. My personal vision of Episode III doesn't deviate very much, and I'd like to keep characters relatively similar and keep scenes, stuff like that. I'd like to have devious Sith like Maul and Dooku. We'll see what we can do. I'd like to see what Hoth thinks.

Oh, and Hoth, I agree. The PT Republic fucking sucks along with its Jedi, my defense of them in other threads was as much my own private desire for them not to suck so much as it was factual. They totally blow and had what happened coming. But I would like to make it a bit less black/white and more poetic and tragic than that.

[montypython]

Why have one 'grand' rank and not another for the equivalent service. Considering that to me the ranks of Grand Admiral and Grand General were special and directly appointed by Palpatine, not routine and normal military ranking.

Yes, but grand admiral is a real rank and fits military nomenclature and grand general does not. The prefix to "general" is supposed to be another rank; lieutenant generals are called that because they are "lieutenants, general." General is short for captain general. What does grand general means? "Grand, general?"

Grand Marshal would be a real life title that sounds better than Grand General as a rank, for example, and fits better with Grand Admiral.

[Admiral Felire]

I have no problem with Grand Marshal, it sounds fine to me. And it works with Surface Marshal, so there is some continuity which is always a nice thing to have.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hoth, let's nail down a crude timeline and outline for the Clone Wars and prequel era, at least enough so we have some idea what to write in the post-OT era. I'm especially interested in hearing your fleshed out Clone Wars.

[Admiral Felire]

I'm not Darth Hope, but participation in ideas is something that I do well.

I would say that the Empire arose around 50 years before A New Hope. The Clone Wars probably took place over a decade, which is something I like. So how about this.

-25,000 I - The signing of the Declaration of Galactic Unification forms the Galactic Republic.

-30 I - Palpatine is elected the Senator from Naboo to the Galactic Senate.

-15 I - Senator Palpatine is chosen to be the Chancellor of the Galactic Senate and President of the Republic.

-10 I - The Clone Wars begins around this point.

0 I - The Galactic Senate declares Palpatine the Emperor.

1 I - The Clone Wars officially ends.

50 I - A New Hope, Battle of Yavin, all that.

54 I - The Battle of Endor occurs. Palpatine dies.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How old do you expect Anakin to be when his wife is pregnant with her first child? And how long do you expect Luke to be living at home?

As I see it, you're starting to stretch credulity if Anakin is older than 35 in ROTS and Luke is older than 21 in ANH. Though if you do that you can have him 17 or 18 in your Ep I equivalent and ROTS 18-17 years later, and ANH be 20-21 years after that. You might be able to stretch the Empire to be 35 years old in ANH, provided its around for 14 years before ROTS. But then the Empire is declared when Anakin is about 3-4 years after he's "discovered." Even if Anakin is 40 you're now stretching Ep I to 23 years before ROTS at the earliest. The Empire would have to be founded 14 years before ROTS for it to be 35 years old, and Anakin would be 26 max. You could push it to 40 years if he's 40 in ROTS and the Empire is founded when Anakin is 21. If you want to increase the age of the Empire period, you could stretch the length of OT without really effecting the plot, but not by that much, and that does nothing for you if you want the Empire to be old in ANH. You could do it if you were comfortable with Anakin entering middle age in ROTS and you made more than three prequels, "stretching" the prequel era out if you will. But you're still stuck with a Jedi Purge and Fall of Anakin around 20 years before ANH unless you do something really wonky with Luke's age in ANH, or (more likely) really change the Jedi Purge and keep Amidala around for longer after it (before she presumably abandons Anakin). The Fall would have to be separated and kept at around 20 years because he can't knock up Amidala after he's iron-lunged. I can't see how to move the Jedi Purge back and keep Luke's birth 20 years pre-ANH, where it needs to be. Lucas left us pretty rigidly locked here. If you have some really good sounding creative idea, I'm up for it, but I can't think of anything. I must admit, I wanted the Empire to be older too, which is why I had it being founded quite a bit before ROTS. But I was going to keep the Purge and Fall there. I think it starts to defeat the purpose if over half the Empire Palpatine was playing nice and hadn't purged the Jedi and become a despot yet. I think if you can come up with a clever way to fit it all into a good arc and separate the Fall of Anakin and the Jedi Purge somehow so you can move the latter backward and have the Empire get worse earlier; then you could have the Empire (and the really fascist Empire especially) significantly older. I still think Anakin shouldn't be too much over 40 when Luke's conceived no matter what.

Absolute Constraints:
- Anakin cannot have fought his Duel with Kenobi earlier than 22 years before the Battle of Yavin, for him to have gotten Amidala pregnant before being Vaderized.

Strong Constraints:
- Anakin cannot realistically participate in a plot line until at youngest 16, in my opinion
- Anakin definitely should not be older than 45, and I'd definitely prefer him younger than 40, more like in his mid 30s when he falls or gets Padme pregnant.
- The Jedi Purge should occur early in the Empire's history at latest; it should not be later than half way between the foundation and ANH.

Potential ways to stretch the timeline: Separate the purge and perhaps also the fall from the Kenobi duel, maybe by several years.

We need Galvatron. He's done a lot more thought on redoing the prequels than I have. Granted his vision is more radical than mine, but I wonder if he has any ideas he/we could adapt and he'd let us use.

[Admiral Felire]

paragraphs man, paragraphs.

That said, lets look at the points we are stuck with.

1) Palpatine is a senator of the Old Republic. Then becomes Chancellor/President.

2) The Clone Wars occur

3) Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader.

4) Darth Vader leads a Jedi Purge which wipes out the Jedi from the galaxy.

5) Amidala has two children Luke and Leia. Obi-Wan takes Luke and brings him to Tatooine. Now, from what Leia says, she remembers her mother, so there is no reason for us to have her die during pregnancy. We could have Amidala die when Leia is 2 or 3 or even 5, allowing for memories.

6) Enough time has to have passed so that the galaxy at large doesn't remember the Galactic Republic.

Now number 6 could mean that in many peoples' view the Empire includes the time period of the Clone Wars. or that the Clone Wars was a many year epoc that caused such destabilization of Republic institutions that it is hard for anybody to remember the Republic that existed before.

7) Luke has to be just barely an adult, maybe 18 or 21 at most. I agree on this. Leia can be a little older. Of course, if that is true, then how did Amidala get pregnant twice if Anakin had already become Darth Vader.

The hardest thing about this is not the information, both your timeline and mine have pretty much the same info, its the dates that are causing problems.

Here are some questions we need to answer from an out-of-universe prospective.

1) How long did the Clone Wars take place.
2) How old is the Empire.

On number 1 I say almost a decade at minimum, it needs to be a huge galaxy-spanning war that pretty much caused the collapse of all that everybody knew and ushered in the Empire. I figure that while the Republic was not destined to fall, once the Clone Wars started its fall or replacement was unquestionable.

On number 2, enough time needs to pass so that the majority of the people in the galaxy does not remember the Galactic Republic. That it has to be a while ago that they do not look back on it as the glory days or anything else.

Here is a question, how old is Han Solo because from his telling of it he does not remember the Jedi. And if he is like upper 30s, lower 40s then he would. At least enough for him to beleive in the existence of the Force cause he would have seen it. It needs to be before his time.

We also need to figure out if we are keeping the basic ideas of Anakin's backstory - slave on Tatooine, then Jedi, then later on Sith.

We must keep the fact that he fought in the Clone Wars along side General Kenobi.

[Admiral Felire]

Your last point can be well made.

Why does Obi-Wan and Anakin have to fight at the end of the Clone Wars and before the Empire is fully made. Why can't they fight after the Empire is formally created. Why can't that battle on the lava world be 5 or so years into the Empire's history.

Another question, couldn't Amidala be with Anakin even after the Empire rises, but before his duel with Obi-Wan. Say he hid the fact that he was Sith for a little while.

By the way, I think that if Anakin is a Jedi then he can be quite young with the way Padawans are trained.

++

By the way, couldn't the Purge just be a long term name for a phenomena that had a beginning before the rise of the Empire and technically never ended while Palpatine was alive. I mean from the onset he probably tried to figure out how to remove Jedi here and Jedi there.

Anakin's Fall just gave Palpatine a new shadowy agent that could strike from the front and yet be secret and hidden.

Also, lets say that The Empire rose but it was Anakin and not Vader yet. Anakin was a general or admiral in the Empire for years in normal body. Then Obi-Wan decided to fight him and he was hurt. To the galaxy at large the great and noble Anakin Skywalker was killed. Some time later, not to long, Palpatine introduced his minion the dreaded Darth Vader to the galaxy. This minion did things that Anakin never did which is why nobody connected the two.

[Illuminatus Primus]

ROTJ has Leia as "a twin sister." We can't split their births. Not to mention you'd have to have them hid separately and Padme stick around to get knocked up again and Vader asks no questions - he doesn't know about either of them. They need to be born together.

Palpatine doesn't need to become leader of the Republic before the war like the original PT; the EU originally had him not coming to power until after the war (presumably with galaxy-sweeping reconstruction plans). I do prefer that he used his leadership during the wars as a leverage for power, so I'd like to keep it like that. The big things are that Anakin must be old enough to fight in the Clone Wars. He ought to (but doesn't have to) know the Republic. He must not be iron-lunged Vader (he could have already fallen though) by 22 years before ANH at the very, very earliest (Luke ought to be younger like you said and it as it previous stood, so more like 21-19 at the earliest).

Han clearly is older than Luke; he graduated from the Academy and had a commission and served, he then was a spacer and smuggler for at least several years. Even if he went to the Academy under a false identity and when too young, he couldn't possibly have gone younger than 17-18 (maaayyybee 16, but a BIG stretch); he couldn't possibly have graduated earlier than 3 years after that, so he's 20-21 (maayyybee 19) when he's out, he's in the service at least a year (probably 2), and then he's a spacer for years. He should be around 25 at the youngest. If you want him not to remember Jedi at all (I don't necessarily agree, there could have been existing widespread skepticism, the old Imperials ought to know but they are skeptical and dismissive of Vader's power), he should be at oldest probably 12 or 13 when the Purge happens. That's 13 years before ANH, max stretch with wiggle room. If you stretch back the Purge and keep Han on the young side, he easily could never been old enough to have experienced any of that. So that's not a big constraint.

As I said, I think whether you split the Fall and Purge from the Kenobi Duel, and Anakin's age at Luke/Leia's conception (and their ages) are the major constraints on making the Empire older.

[Admiral Felire]

I just want to make a note that what seems to be happening about the Prequel Era is a complete rearranging and throwing away of everything we have now. For good or ill we are throwing away all that has been declared Star Wars and replacing it with what we consider to be Star Wars.

Now, I'm fine with that but I just want it to be stated directly. We are not modifying things lightly, we are making it up as we go based on what we want.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Your last point can be well made.

Why does Obi-Wan and Anakin have to fight at the end of the Clone Wars and before the Empire is fully made. Why can't they fight after the Empire is formally created. Why can't that battle on the lava world be 5 or so years into the Empire's history.

That's a thought that I was having.

Another question, couldn't Amidala be with Anakin even after the Empire rises, but before his duel with Obi-Wan. Say he hid the fact that he was Sith for a little while.

Yeah, I was thinking about if that could work.

By the way, I think that if Anakin is a Jedi then he can be quite young with the way Padawans are trained.

I think Hoth and I are pretty set on the Jedi being KNIGHTS, not monks, and we'd prefer that they not employ child soldiers. I think one of the stupidest mistakes about TPM is having the would-be Darth Vader as a child. They tried, but all the character development is essentially wasted in order for hamfisted attempts at drawing the empathy of kids and his ability to be influential except for the Podrace is contrived and ridiculous.

By the way, couldn't the Purge just be a long term name for a phenomena that had a beginning before the rise of the Empire and technically never ended while Palpatine was alive. I mean from the onset he probably tried to figure out how to remove Jedi here and Jedi there.

I agree. But something systematic had to happen for Obi-Wan to have the impression he did. At some point it seems clear the Empire made being a Jedi a crime and they had to hide completely.

Anakin's Fall just gave Palpatine a new shadowy agent that could strike from the front and yet be secret and hidden.

I agree that some of this might work, but I do think there needs to be a breakaway moment when the Jedi are outlawed and purged formally. What's the point of the Empire being much older if its playing by Republic rules for so long?

Also, lets say that The Empire rose but it was Anakin and not Vader yet. Anakin was a general or admiral in the Empire for years in normal body. Then Obi-Wan decided to fight him and he was hurt. To the galaxy at large the great and noble Anakin Skywalker was killed. Some time later, not to long, Palpatine introduced his minion the dreaded Darth Vader to the galaxy. This minion did things that Anakin never did which is why nobody connected the two.

Sure. I think that Anakin should Fall and at least secretly be a Sith for Palpatine around the time of the Purge, even if we change how the Purge works etc. I agree he could be Anakin supporting the Emperor for some time before he fights Kenobi (maybe Kenobi went into exile and returns because Padme is looking for help and to get away, and they end up fighting and Anakin is Vaderized and Padme escapes with Kenobi?).

I just want to make a note that what seems to be happening about the Prequel Era is a complete rearranging and throwing away of everything we have now. For good or ill we are throwing away all that has been declared Star Wars and replacing it with what we consider to be Star Wars.

Now, I'm fine with that but I just want it to be stated directly. We are not modifying things lightly, we are making it up as we go based on what we want.

We're keeping the Original Trilogy. You may think I'm radical, but there are some - like Galvatron who want to throw out EVERYTHING except for ANH and TESB ALONE and go from there.

[Admiral Felire]

I very much thing Palpatine should be involved in the Clone Wars. I like the duality of him both leading the 'good guys' (the Republic) and the 'bad guys' (whoever we decide that to be). The fact that even before his official declaration he controlled the galaxy is a very poignant and important fact that I think needs to be kept.

Okay, I realized that just because Leia remembers her mother doesn't mean she is older. But I don't think its automatically necessary for Padme to die when she is giving birth. She could go with Leia to Alderann and act like a servant or a nanny. That is not a big deal.

I think an 18 or 19 year Luke makes a lot of sense, I don't really want to change that. The point of the untested youth being put into situations he has no experience with is a part of the myth and needs to be kept in my opinion.

In fact, his 'youth' is counterbalanced by Leia who is the same age yet has had years of politics and whatnot. She is much more mature for her age.

If the Jedi were such a major force in the time of the Old Republic, with theior presence being everywhere so they can take force sensitive kids, then I do not think anybody could deny their existence and power - if you lived during that time. Especially a person living on a Core World such as Corellia, a lot of Jedi had to be on that planet and in the news. But if you lived during an era where they were all but extinct, myths and legends from ones' fathers and grandparents then yeah, you wouldn't believe them.

And yeah, I agree that Han is older. I say upper 30s (38 or 39) or lower 40s (41-43)

I think we should split the Fall and the Dual. I think they should be years apart, I think that makes sense to be honest with you.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I very much thing Palpatine should be involved in the Clone Wars. I like the duality of him both leading the 'good guys' (the Republic) and the 'bad guys' (whoever we decide that to be). The fact that even before his official declaration he controlled the galaxy is a very poignant and important fact that I think needs to be kept.

I agree. I like that he secretly controlled the galaxy through illicit pacts and silent factions before the Wars, and was legally elected and a war leader for the Republic before the Principate.

Okay, I realized that just because Leia remembers her mother doesn't mean she is older. But I don't think its automatically necessary for Padme to die when she is giving birth. She could go with Leia to Alderann and act like a servant or a nanny. That is not a big deal.

Yeah, I think that's the easiest way to do it. Maybe they were raised on a protected world owned by Alderaan (easy because Alderaan is a major power and its royal family filthy rich).

I think an 18 or 19 year Luke makes a lot of sense, I don't really want to change that. The point of the untested youth being put into situations he has no experience with is a part of the myth and needs to be kept in my opinion.

In fact, his 'youth' is counterbalanced by Leia who is the same age yet has had years of politics and whatnot. She is much more mature for her age.

Hey, I agree 100%.

If the Jedi were such a major force in the time of the Old Republic, with theior presence being everywhere so they can take force sensitive kids, then I do not think anybody could deny their existence and power - if you lived during that time. Especially a person living on a Core World such as Corellia, a lot of Jedi had to be on that planet and in the news. But if you lived during an era where they were all but extinct, myths and legends from ones' fathers and grandparents then yeah, you wouldn't believe them.

I don't think Han's much of a problem. His canonical age is 10 years older than Luke and Leia (he was born in 29 BBY). Even if we didn't roll back the duel much less split the fall and purge from the duel and roll it further back, Han's only 9-10 when they're finally wiped out. He won't even hear histories until years later, and not really able to think for himself to even later, well into the Empire's iron-fisted rule and propoganda. Its effortless to make him incrementally younger and to roll back the purge, so he should be young enough to not know better. Furthermore, he's an orphan and grew up rough-and-tumble. He's not going to get a good education and be well-read when he's a little kid.

And yeah, I agree that Han is older. I say upper 30s (38 or 39) or lower 40s (41-43)

Apparently he's canonically only 29 in ANH. I never thought he was quite as old as you were thinking, and if it works and its already there, I say don't fix what isn't broken.

I think we should split the Fall and the Dual. I think they should be years apart, I think that makes sense to be honest with you.

Its definitely looking more attractive, that's for sure. The only question is how old is Anakin when Padme is pregnant and how young was he when he is discovered (TPM analogue), and so how long through his life was the Empire declared (I think he should be around in the Republic, even if its Palpatine's wartime Republic for at least a bit before the Empire - even Empire-lite - is founded, much less the Fall and Purge.

[Admiral Felire]

I wish we were online or whatever as its hard to keep up with the posts.

On the Jedi, I completely agree with them being knights and not monks. Well, they can be monkish in the extensive training, personal discipline, mastery of self and all that - just not the ignoring life deal. For example, to me, Jedi can have sex, get married, have kids with no problem.

That said, I like the idea of the master-apprentice training program. And I think it makes a lot of sense when one considers the sorts of knoweldge that must be passed on. So, I think the padawan aspect should be kept. And honesty, childhood is in many ways a modern thing, if you work hard, train hard, you can be mentally developed before our modern day would consider you adults. And I think the Jedi had that sort of training.

Also, I consider that with training one that uses the Force finds their minds and bodys developing and growing faster. They also age slower when adults because of the nature of the Force.

But that is just me.

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On the breakway moment, I see nothing wrong with making it like what happened in the movie, at least in basic outline. The Jedi discover that Palpatine is Sith and they send agents after him. Or he gives an order and they disobey in the most outlandish way possible, making them enemies of the state. Because of this direct act that the galaxy can see they support Palpatine when he calls them traitors and enemies of the Empire. This doesn't have to happen immediately upon Empire, rather it can be year 3 instead.

I like the idea of Anakin falling to the Dark Side but remaining astute enough to hide the fact for as long as he can. This leads him to being a visible agent in the Galactic Empire as it is formed. Then at some point, say 10 years, Padme realizes that the shit hits the fan.

And if anybody says its taking too long before Padme realizes the love of her life is evil, well, sometimes partners don't want to realize that their partner is evil, and he probably spent a lot of time away from home traveling and doing things for the Empire.

Obi-Wan comes after Anakin, they fight and Anakin plunges into lava in the most epic duel of all time.

==

Oh its not that I think your radical, there are times when I wanted to throw it out. I just wanted it to be directly and firmly stated to all that read this thread. You know, as a sort of heads up.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I wish we were online or whatever as its hard to keep up with the posts.

On the Jedi, I completely agree with them being knights and not monks. Well, they can be monkish in the extensive training, personal discipline, mastery of self and all that - just not the ignoring life deal. For example, to me, Jedi can have sex, get married, have kids with no problem.

That said, I like the idea of the master-apprentice training program. And I think it makes a lot of sense when one considers the sorts of knoweldge that must be passed on. So, I think the padawan aspect should be kept. And honesty, childhood is in many ways a modern thing, if you work hard, train hard, you can be mentally developed before our modern day would consider you adults. And I think the Jedi had that sort of training.

Also, I consider that with training one that uses the Force finds their minds and bodys developing and growing faster. They also age slower when adults because of the nature of the Force.

But that is just me.

I don't disagree. In the other thread in Fanfics (sigh), I said I'm fine with them being taken (not as infants mind you) with parents consent and given a boarding-style education and preliminary training etc. and able to leave be taken by parents etc. But they shouldn't be deliberately put at risk by the Jedi Knights. That's a big big BIG deal morally. You could do it if you were clever to have Anakin as a teen and travel with Obi-Wan etc. and already be a pilot and a crack shot or something and get stuck in a shitty situation and end up in the action against the Jedi's attempt to shelter him and against their wishes. But even then, you can't have him too much younger. I think 15 or so is pushing it. He should be a teen at youngest; definitely not a prepubescent.

On the breakway moment, I see nothing wrong with making it like what happened in the movie, at least in basic outline. The Jedi discover that Palpatine is Sith and they send agents after him. Or he gives an order and they disobey in the most outlandish way possible, making them enemies of the state. Because of this direct act that the galaxy can see they support Palpatine when he calls them traitors and enemies of the Empire. This doesn't have to happen immediately upon Empire, rather it can be year 3 instead.

Right, or whatever. He promised to be a constitutional monarch, basically it be a lifetime honorific and then it'd go back to the Republic and so everyone went along with it (except his fanatics who wanted more) because he's the Savior of the Galaxy.

I like the idea of Anakin falling to the Dark Side but remaining astute enough to hide the fact for as long as he can. This leads him to being a visible agent in the Galactic Empire as it is formed. Then at some point, say 10 years, Padme realizes that the shit hits the fan.

And if anybody says its taking too long before Padme realizes the love of her life is evil, well, sometimes partners don't want to realize that their partner is evil, and he probably spent a lot of time away from home traveling and doing things for the Empire.

Obi-Wan comes after Anakin, they fight and Anakin plunges into lava in the most epic duel of all time.

It could work. It'd take a lot of work and care, but this probably could work. I admit the idea of a teen Anakin absurd prodigy is growing on me. Maybe he could be 15-16. And maybe 45 by the time he finally is ready to settle down for kids. That gives you 29-30 years to work with. If the purge/fall is 10-15 years before the duel, you could have the Jedi been wiped out and the "hard" Empire for 35 years, with the "soft" Empire for an additional 5 or so (for a total of 40 years in ANH), with 10 years (of Clone Wars, having already started?) between his discovery and the initial declaration of the Empire. I don't know how I feel about THAT much time going by between the purge/fall and duel. Luke's age is rough to work with. I don't see how you can get more than 30-35 years since the Purge in ANH, max.

Oh its not that I think your radical, there are times when I wanted to throw it out. I just wanted it to be directly and firmly stated to all that read this thread. You know, as a sort of heads up.

Okay, sure.

[Admiral Felire]

Han's age is okay he if remains 29. Its not that big of a deal. And in fact it might support my view (when we work on timeline) that he doesn't remember the Republic and Jedi.

I agree that Anakin must know the Republic. I also like the idea that all he knew was war. It makes a lot of sense when one considers his character and his life. On the age of Anakin and Padme we would need to know the generalized dates of the Clone Wars and rise of Empire.

I figure

Clone Wars - decade or so. Ends one or two years after Empire is founded, wars don't mysteriously just stop.

Empire created

Jedi Purge - Three years after Empire founded the Jedi openly disobey Imperial Orders and not long after attack the Emperor. He survives thanks to the support of his loyal Jedi minions - including one Anakin Skywalker.

Ten years pass while Anakin Skywalker aids Palpatine in both building up the various Imperial Institutions as well as secretly hunting some Jedi. At about 10 years after empire founding Padme gets pregnant. Something happens that causes her to finally realize that her husband is not the shiny light filled guy that she always thought. She calls her old friend Obi-Wan for help. She gives both Luke goes to Tattoine and her and Leia go to Alderran.

18 years later Luke buys some droids.

This makes the Empire some roughly 30 years old. Its not as old as I wanted, but it works a little better if you ask me.

[Admiral Felire]

Ah, the process of typing my replies to you not knowing that you already commented on my comments. The methods of online communication.

--

I just want to make it known that there are two issues for me:
1) Standard policy for normal Force Sensitives.
2) The policy as it works with Anakin and his backstory.

While normal characters are taken at birth and brought into the Jedi Order, Anakin is different. He was found in his teen years and brought into the Order. His life as a character is not as a little kid. His life is as a near adult.

Its just that in my opinion the standard and official policy is the adopting of children as soon as they are discovered to be force sensitive.

I realized in the post that I typed before your response but hit submit after yours, that I probably could only wish for 30 years if we are stuck with the canon of the movies. It would have been so much easier of Darth Vader wasn't Luke's father, but that is something that is unchangeable and core of Star Wars. so were stuck.

[Darth Raptor]

Personally, I'm fine with a young Empire. It's the short, singular Clone Wars I have a problem with. As long as we can greatly expand their length, scope and impact I'll be happy. An Empire that's more than thirty or so years old by ANH just presents far too many problems. It's the Second Galactic Empire that will be known for its longevity. The First Galactic or Palpatinic Empire, not so much.